Restoring some sanity here: Quality rebuilding talk, and how long will it take?

[Rondo2287]

Whatever, that point is debatable, (whereas opposed to you saying the Lakers the last 15 years were built through the draft is not debatable.)

The Lakers did not build their team entirely through the draft, no.  But their model is impossible to emulate for a number of reasons -- the primary one being that they are the Lakers, based in an enormous warm weather city that boasts the spotlight of Hollywood.  That's how the Lakers get so many major free agents to join up with them, which is what's allowed them to stay competitive year after year without any drop-offs.

Shaq didn't leave the Magic to join the Lakers just because they were a good team.  The Magic were a good team, too.  He joined the Lakers because they were the LAKERS.  The Celtics are not going to lure any hall of fame big men in their prime away from their teams by dangling the charms of Boston.

As for their more recent success, you can dismiss the important of Andrew Bynum in their two most recent titles if you want.  The Pau Gasol trade certainly was the prime enabling of their recent run -- but if you want to advocate that we hang our rebuilding hopes on replicating a lop-sided deal like that one, you'll have a difficult time convincing many folks of the reliability of your plan, I think.

To piggy back on this Ian Thompson of SI was on WEEI today and said that he hsnt heard a single prospective free agent matnion that he wants to play in Boston

[birdbrady]

The Lakers did not build their team entirely through the draft, no.  But their model is impossible to emulate for a number of reasons -- the primary one being that they are the Lakers, based in an enormous warm weather city that boasts the spotlight of Hollywood.  That's how the Lakers get so many major free agents to join up with them, which is what's allowed them to stay competitive year after year without any drop-offs.

Then why haven't the Clippers followed that model? They've instead followed the model of many other NBA losers.  Tanking, drafting high, overrating their young scrubs, creating a culture of losing.

Do the Lakers get an advantage of playing in LA? Hell yes.  But they do a great job putting themselves in position to make the great move.

The Lakers were absolutely dead after Magic left in 91.  They had nasty contracts, old players, and were stuck in mediocrity.  Not good enough to contend, and not bad enough to get a high pick.  But they still stayed respectable.  They made the playoffs as an 8 in 92 and 93, missed in 94.  They had good drafts those years, coming away with Campbell, Peeler, Lynch, Van Exel and Eddie Jones.  Then they made good free agent signings.  Poof! They were back to being a 50 win team (with no high picks.)  They traded Vlade (another back end of the first round pick) for Kobe, and had loads of cap space to make a run at an elite FA.  It just so happened that they got Shaq and became a dynasty.  Even if they didn't get Shaq they were still in a positive to be very good for years to come due to great moves by West.

Shaq didn't leave the Magic to join the Lakers just because they were a good team.  The Magic were a good team, too.  He joined the Lakers because they were the LAKERS.  The Celtics are not going to lure any hall of fame big men in their prime away from their teams by dangling the charms of Boston.

Yes, I understand why Shaq joined LA.  Making movies was a big part of it.  But Shaq wasn't going to the Lakers if they were a 30 win team with 'up and coming young talent.'

As for their more recent success, you can dismiss the important of Andrew Bynum in their two most recent titles if you want. 

I don't entirely dismiss it, but odds are they win it without him in 09 and 10.  They made the Finals without him in 08 and actually played some of their best ball without him (right after they got Gasol in 08, and their grammy road trip after Bynum got hurt in 09.)

And like I said, Bynum was just a 10 pick.  He was not the result of years of Lakers sucking games.  The Lakers only missed the playoffs once (05) and it wasn't by much and they picked Bynum 10.  They never trotted out a roster of young guys and NBDLrs for one year, let alone multiple years.  They always played hard.

The Pau Gasol trade certainly was the prime enabling of their recent run -- but if you want to advocate that we hang our rebuilding hopes on replicating a lop-sided deal like that one, you'll have a difficult time convincing many folks of the reliability of your plan, I think.

Not saying that we're going to get a Gasol-caliber guy for what the Lakers got him before, but if you don't think we can do a quarter, a few dimes and a nickel for a dollar trade with a small market team you are kidding yourself.  That's the way to go.  And you can do it without throwing seasons down the tubes.  Just make good draft picks, solid underrated free agent signings, and acquire other assets (like picks.)

[Celtics18]

You have to tank for multiple years to develop the assets to become a contender.  There are no exceptions to that rule except for the Detroit Pistons and the Lakers . . . and, well, also kind of the Mavericks and the Celtics . . . and sort of the Heat and the Spurs. 

But, other than that I challenge anyone to show me a contender who hasn't tanked for multiple years to get there. 

[birdbrady]

You have to tank for multiple years to develop the assets to become a contender.  There are no exceptions to that rule except for the Detroit Pistons and the Lakers . . . and, well, also kind of the Mavericks and the Celtics . . . and sort of the Heat and the Spurs. 

But, other than that I challenge anyone to show me a contender who hasn't tanked for multiple years to get there. 

So you just named the last six NBA champions, and one other team that would have won it had their owner not been so cheap - and then you respond with 'other than that' ?

The Suns example is a good one.  From about 1989-2003 the Suns were pretty much always a playoff team.  Then, they had one season to clear cap space so they could make a run at Nash or Kobe that off-season.  They ended up selling their first round that year (Deng.)  Then from 05-10 they were a legitimate title contender.  So once again, another example.

These great teams that attract players, and build their championship teams are usually always good.  They may have one or two years out of the playoffs, but it is no more than that.  They usually hit on their picks, go back to being a playoff team, and then make that major move to compete.  We still have yet to see a team win the title since the 93 Bulls that was nearly entirely built on their own lottery picks (Jordan, Pippen, Grant.)

[LarBrd33]

5 years minimum.  

Realistically Dwight and Deron are both going to find new homes before they hit free agency.

KG will retire. Ray and Pierce have a couple years left in them, but you're never going to win another title with those guys on the Celtics.

Best thing to do is rebuild through the draft.  We're on pace to get the 15th pick (non-lotto).  We'll also own the Clippers pick (#24).  Neither of those guys are going to be impact players.  Maybe you can get a couple more draft picks out of Ray and Pierce to try an expedite the process, but no matter how you look at it... it's going to be 5-10 years before this team contends for a title again... and if it happens it will likely be with guys you haven't even heard of yet.

It's time to acquire assets ... Ainge is good at that.  Before we can trade the Big Als, Delontes and top 5 picks for Ray's and KG's we first need to acquire the Big Als, Delontes and top 5 picks.  Currently we have nothing.  The sooner we start collecting chips the better.

[birdbrady]

5 years minimum.  

Realistically Dwight and Deron are both going to find new homes before they hit free agency.

KG will retire. Ray and Pierce have a couple years left in them, but you're never going to win another title with those guys on the Celtics.

Best thing to do is rebuild through the draft.  We're on pace to get the 15th pick (non-lotto).  We'll also own the Clippers pick (#24).  Neither of those guys are going to be impact players.

Really? I hope they are.  Particularly the 15th pick.  We got Al Jefferson at 15 in a draft that is not as strong as this one.  Had the Celtics picked Hardaway instead of Michael Smith in 1989 in that very same draft slot (when we were the 8 seed that year without Bird), the rebuilding process in the 90s would have been much easier.  Coming away with a washout at 15 is going to hurt us going forward.  I'm not expecting a borderline HOFr (Hardaway) or a borderline all-star (Al), although that would be nice, but I sure as heck don't want a Michael Smith.  We need something there.

Maybe you can get a couple more draft picks out of Ray and Pierce to try an expedite the process, but no matter how you look at it... it's going to be 5-10 years before this team contends for a title again... and if it happens it will likely be with guys you haven't even heard of yet.

It's time to acquire assets ... Ainge is good at that.  Before we can trade the Big Als, Delontes and top 5 picks for Ray's and KG's we first need to acquire the Big Als, Delontes and top 5 picks.  Currently we have nothing.  The sooner we start collecting chips the better.

re Ray: as I said earlier in my original post, it's been reported by Woj right now that the Celtics can't even get a measly first rounder for Ray.  And I think Pierce trades can wait.  You need to see what you're doing this summer first.

One thing that we have going for us that we did not have going for us back in 2003-2004 is we have cap flexibility this time around.  That makes the process that much easier, particularly when you are a big market team.  You can absorb some salaries and take on other assets (Cleveland did this to get the #1 pick last year), sign free agents, etc.  Celtics had Baker and Pierce on the books, LaFrentz (who Ainge brought here), Mark Blount (Ainge's fault and his WORST move) Ricky Davis/Wally (the original trade of players they shipped out were role players making too much money - Battie and Eric Williams.)

[SHAQATTACK]

3 years min would be pretty fast IMO .  Only a player of the calibre of Howard can do it in a couple seasons or less. .  

THose type of franchise players only want to play in the biggest warm climate markets with their buddies.

SO for us to draft and draft and draft and get lucky , ect e, ect , ect .....yes ..I agree 5 years is pretty good guess.

Look how LONG it took the owner of the MAVs to finally get the job done.  ANd he practically sit on the bench and brown-noses and spends like crazy ( as a private hobby) to get the players he wants...He is TRUELY committed to winning, not just making a profit.

In about 7 years when  LBJ, Howard , LOve , ect all get near the end of their best seasons ...yea we might get more worn out superstars and do it again. About 2019 , the crums or aging willstart to to be let lose ...so that Sterns secondary league of cold climate /small potatoes cities can pick up a star for a a couple years. 

Unless we can sign top players ...the Celtics will become another Bucks, BobCats , T-WOlves , Magic team .....stuck in limbo

TOdays young supers could care less about Red Auerbach...he could be the priminster of Transylvania for all they know or care.

They want the FAME , $ and chick s.....basket ball is secondary.

  

[LarBrd33]

Here's the sad and depressing reality of our situation...

I have to preface this by saying ... this isn't for those of you delusional folks who incorrectly believe this bunch can win a title.  This is for people who aren't living in a fantasy land:

We would gladly swap situations with AT LEAST a dozen teams in this league.  

I'd gladly take David Lee, future phenom Steph Curry and Monta Ellis (who I'd trade) over what we're looking at in 2013.  I'd have 15 years to build around Curry... I'd gladly swap situations with Golden State.

Are you telling me you wouldn't rather have Utah's roster right now?  Favors and Kanter are future stars and are both 19 ... Hayward is 21 years old... Al Jefferson and Millisap are extremely tradeable (both are 27)... They currently look like they will have the 11th and 13th picks in a LOADED draft.  That team is UNQUESTIONABLY closer to winning a title than this team.

Are you telling me you wouldn't swap places with the Nets?  Deron is ON the team(top 2 point guard)... Brooks looks great.  Brook Lopez is better than any big we have on our roster post-KG (btw ... find me a fool who honestly wouldn't trade KG for Lopez RIGHT NOW)... Humphries puts up solid numbers is an excellent asset... not to mention they have the 4th best odds of winning a loaded lotto right now and they are at the top of Dwight HOward's wish list.  Be honest with yourselves... you'd swap places with them in a nanosecond.  Even their worst case scenario (trading Deron now for bare minimum Rondo, while still having a boatload of young players and a #4 pick) looks more promising than our best-case scenario.  Fact:  The Nets are closer to winning a title than the Celtics.

It goes without saying that the Timberwolves are closer to winning a title than the Celtics.  Give me a break.  Rubio and Rondo is a wash... but tell me who we are going to get with our 25 mil in cap room that is comparable to Kevin Love.  Then you have Pekovic who is far and away better than any non-KG big man on this roster, Derrick Williams (#2 pick last year ... HUGE trade value) players like Randolph and Beasley (who if they played in boston would instantly be our most intriguing young prospects and be hailed as the next *insert Celtic Legend*)... Doubt there is a single rational person on this forum who wouldnt' trade our Roster for the Wolves.

Tell me you seriously wouldn't swap positions with the Hornets right now.  Eric Gordon is a young star shooter, they have mountains of cap space and the 2nd best odds of landing Anthony Davis.  I'd gladly swap franchises with the Hornets (and as someone living in Seattle, I'm actively rooting for them to become the Sonics).  The Hornets are closer to winning a title than the Celtics.


It gets worse, though.  Take a look at a bottomfeeder team like the Detroit Pistons.  This is a team that unquestionably had more success than our 3 year contender...  They managed to stay contenders for 7 years, won the title once, made it to the finals a 2nd time and made it to the Eastern Conference Finals 4 of those other years.  They also have a 4 year head-start on rebuilding.  Right now in our situation we're about where the PIstons were in 2008.  Tell me you wouldn't rather have 21 year old BEAST Earl Monroe (averaging 16 and 10) and the 6th best odds of winning this lotto than 26 year old Rondo and what's left of Paul Pierce.  The Detroit Pistons are closer to winning a title than we are.

We are in for a long haul and we don't have much as far as assets right now.  Most people want us to just play out this season, watch KG, Ray and Pierce gracefully retire as Celtics... maybe make a couple more late seed playoff appearances in the process.  We're basically prolonging our misery by doing so.  If you want 3 more years of this garbage, then that's 3 more years you have to wait for a chance to add a Greg Monroe... and by the time that finally happens Rondo will be pushing 30. 

[birdbrady]

Here's the sad and depressing reality of our situation...

I have to preface this by saying ... this isn't for those of you delusional folks who incorrectly believe this bunch can win a title.  This is for people who aren't living in a fantasy land:

We would gladly swap situations with AT LEAST a dozen teams in this league.  

I'd gladly take David Lee, future phenom Steph Curry and Monta Ellis (who I'd trade) over what we're looking at in 2013.  I'd have 15 years to build around Curry... I'd gladly swap situations with Golden State.

David Lee is a grossly overpaid, no-defense playing role player.  Curry has yet to prove he's going to be healthy, and if that team ever develops into a title contender Eillis won't be on it because he's a ballhog.

Golden State has been in 'golden' situations the last 35 years and they've been spinning their wheels.  Why you brought that sorry sack of losers up I don't know.

Are you telling me you wouldn't rather have Utah's roster right now?  Favors and Kanter are future stars and are both 19 ... Hayward is 21 years old... Al Jefferson and Millisap are extremely tradeable (both are 27)... They currently look like they will have the 11th and 13th picks in a LOADED draft.  That team is UNQUESTIONABLY closer to winning a title than this team.

Here's a better example for your argument, or if you are even making an argument.  Utah is in good shape.  Good coaching staff (underrated part of building a winning team), great front office, good pieces, cap room.  This is what we should shoot for in about 3-4 years I think.  Competitive team, good management, cap flexibility, young pieces that you can develop or trade for a few studs.

Are you telling me you wouldn't swap places with the Nets?  Deron is ON the team(top 2 point guard)... Brooks looks great.  Brook Lopez is better than any big we have on our roster post-KG (btw ... find me a fool who honestly wouldn't trade KG for Lopez RIGHT NOW)... Humphries puts up solid numbers is an excellent asset... not to mention they have the 4th best odds of winning a loaded lotto right now and they are at the top of Dwight HOward's wish list.  Be honest with yourselves... you'd swap places with them in a nanosecond.  Even their worst case scenario (trading Deron now for bare minimum Rondo, while still having a boatload of young players and a #4 pick) looks more promising than our best-case scenario.

I mean, we all knew this day would come? The last five years the Celtics were one of the best teams in the league and grabbed a championship.  The last five years the Nets have been 'accumilating these assets' while the Celtics have been at the top of the league.  They make look nicer now, but you don't think the Nets would've traded places with us? That's what we knew we were getting ourselves into when we sold the farm for KG and Ray.  The Nets have been absolutely PATHETIC since 2007, five full years of crap.  If Deron leaves them, then they have to start ALL OVER AGAIN.  Then it becomes at least a decade of complete garbage.  That's painful to deal with as a fan.  You'd be able to count the season ticket holders on one hand if that happened to the Celtics in Boston.

Fact:  The Nets are closer to winning a title than the Celtics.

Woah, slow down there bud.  Why don't you wait till Dwight goes there before you make a statement like this? If they don't get Dwight and Deron bolts, they are absolutely screwed.

It goes without saying that the Timberwolves are closer to winning a title than the Celtics.  Give me a break.  Rubio and Rondo is a wash... but tell me who we are going to get with our 25 mil in cap room that is comparable to Kevin Love.  Then you have Pekovic who is far and away better than any non-KG big man on this roster, Derrick Williams (#2 pick last year ... HUGE trade value) players like Randolph and Beasley (who if they played in boston would instantly be our most intriguing young prospects and be hailed as the next *insert Celtic Legend*)... Doubt there is a single rational person on this forum who wouldnt' trade our Roster for the Wolves.

I wouldn't trade our GM for David Kahn there.  Very good chance he could mess that up.  They need some veterans in there in the worst way.  They keep acquiring young guys and draft picks, but that's good in the early stages of rebuilding.  Then you need to make the next move.  Have to show some of the younger players what it takes to win, and they aren't going to get that by starting Wesley Johnson (a lower PER than Sasha Pavlovic.)  They're 16-16 and losing a lot of games that they shouldn't.  Talentwise, that should be a playoff team but they probably won't be with Martell Webter and Wesley Johnson types.

Tell me you seriously wouldn't swap positions with the Hornets right now.

A team that might be contracted? No thanks.

It gets worse, though.  Take a look at a bottomfeeder team like the Detroit Pistons.  This is a team that unquestionably had more success than our 3 year contender...  They managed to stay contenders for 7 years, won the title once, made it to the finals a 2nd time and made it to the Eastern Conference Finals 4 of those other years.  They also have a 4 year head-start on rebuilding.  Right now in our situation we're about where the PIstons were in 2008.  Tell me you wouldn't rather have 21 year old BEAST Earl Monroe (averaging 16 and 10) and the 6th best odds of winning this lotto than 26 year old Rondo and what's left of Paul Pierce.  The Detroit Pistons are closer to winning a title than we are.

We are in for a long haul and we don't have much as far as assets right now.  Most people want us to just play out this season, watch KG, Ray and Pierce gracefully retire as Celtics... maybe make a couple more late seed playoff appearances in the process.  We're basically prolonging our misery by doing so.  If you want 3 more years of this garbage, then that's 3 more years you have to wait for a chance to add a Greg Monroe... and by the time that finally happens Rondo will be pushing 30. 

I like Monroe but they don't have much else.  They tied themselves into two horrible contracts, and they are probably stuck in Raptorland.  So unless they can add another impact guy in the draft, they won't do much, and they can't do a thing in free agency because they are stuck with huge contracts of Stuckey, Gordon and Charlie V.  It remains to be seen if Brandon Knight even develops into a Darren Collison type.

I like what the Pacers have done.  I think that's something we should look at.  They never had any high picks, but picked well, made solid moves in free agency, and kept adding to the team.  They also did this while keeping a lot of cap flexibility.  They're going to be able to improve their team going forward.  They blew their team up five years ago when they dumped Artest and JO one year later, and now after five years they are in great shape.

[SHAQATTACK]

Shaq didn't leave the Magic to join the Lakers just because they were a good team.  The Magic were a good team, too.  He joined the Lakers because they were the LAKERS.  The Celtics are not going to lure any hall of fame big men in their prime away from their teams by dangling the charms of Boston.
.

Amen.  There it is folks the reality of todays basketball with young men in the NBA (at least the stars) signing them , ect

So now that the Lakers bench is full and plenty of people waiting in line for their turn to join Jack and the rest of those weirdo stars....with that problem (ok add another team to LA...now the CLippers have become the second best choice , they get you as close to becomming a Laker as you can get.   

Maybe Stern should just get another 6 -8 more teams in LA area , and then just play the NBLA basketball league amoung themselves.

There is an answer.....not one players or large fanchise want to discuss....  There needs to be a HUGE a REALLY HUGE cap advantage in favor for the smaller market clubs....one that, fit they have the money , you can talk a young super into signing.

The weather and limelight an't changing in the smaller markets, the only way to even up sexappeal is with a HUGE, not a mere token salary cap that evens up the testosterone advantage of the biggest cities have with the overpaid already so called stars.

S

[Dante]

 The 2009 window ended when we lost to the Lakers sans Perkins, not before. We had our window in 2008, and if you want to blame our loss in 2009 cause we missed Perkins, The Lakers claim likewise they lost in 2008  sans Bynum. Whats good for the goose is good for the gander, so they say.  We didnt win in 2009 cause we lost to the Lakers. We won in 2008 cause we beat the Lakers. Excuses are always for losers. The window closed after that 2009 series.I thought that would be easy enough to see. As far as blaming the Drafters in the 89-07 era, Danny hasnt been the top drafter in the league. We only have one drafted player still playing for us to show how knowledgeable Danny has been since joining us. ONE

[LarBrd33]

Here's the sad and depressing reality of our situation...

I have to preface this by saying ... this isn't for those of you delusional folks who incorrectly believe this bunch can win a title.  This is for people who aren't living in a fantasy land:

We would gladly swap situations with AT LEAST a dozen teams in this league. 

I'd gladly take David Lee, future phenom Steph Curry and Monta Ellis (who I'd trade) over what we're looking at in 2013.  I'd have 15 years to build around Curry... I'd gladly swap situations with Golden State.

David Lee is a grossly overpaid, no-defense playing role player.  Curry has yet to prove he's going to be healthy, and if that team ever develops into a title contender Eillis won't be on it because he's a ballhog.

Golden State has been in 'golden' situations the last 35 years and they've been spinning their wheels.  Why you brought that sorry sack of losers up I don't know.

Are you telling me you wouldn't rather have Utah's roster right now?  Favors and Kanter are future stars and are both 19 ... Hayward is 21 years old... Al Jefferson and Millisap are extremely tradeable (both are 27)... They currently look like they will have the 11th and 13th picks in a LOADED draft.  That team is UNQUESTIONABLY closer to winning a title than this team.

Here's a better example for your argument, or if you are even making an argument.  Utah is in good shape.  Good coaching staff (underrated part of building a winning team), great front office, good pieces, cap room.  This is what we should shoot for in about 3-4 years I think.  Competitive team, good management, cap flexibility, young pieces that you can develop or trade for a few studs.

Are you telling me you wouldn't swap places with the Nets?  Deron is ON the team(top 2 point guard)... Brooks looks great.  Brook Lopez is better than any big we have on our roster post-KG (btw ... find me a fool who honestly wouldn't trade KG for Lopez RIGHT NOW)... Humphries puts up solid numbers is an excellent asset... not to mention they have the 4th best odds of winning a loaded lotto right now and they are at the top of Dwight HOward's wish list.  Be honest with yourselves... you'd swap places with them in a nanosecond.  Even their worst case scenario (trading Deron now for bare minimum Rondo, while still having a boatload of young players and a #4 pick) looks more promising than our best-case scenario.

I mean, we all knew this day would come? The last five years the Celtics were one of the best teams in the league and grabbed a championship.  The last five years the Nets have been 'accumilating these assets' while the Celtics have been at the top of the league.  They make look nicer now, but you don't think the Nets would've traded places with us? That's what we knew we were getting ourselves into when we sold the farm for KG and Ray.  The Nets have been absolutely PATHETIC since 2007, five full years of crap.  If Deron leaves them, then they have to start ALL OVER AGAIN.  Then it becomes at least a decade of complete garbage.  That's painful to deal with as a fan.  You'd be able to count the season ticket holders on one hand if that happened to the Celtics in Boston.

Fact:  The Nets are closer to winning a title than the Celtics.

Woah, slow down there bud.  Why don't you wait till Dwight goes there before you make a statement like this? If they don't get Dwight and Deron bolts, they are absolutely screwed.

It goes without saying that the Timberwolves are closer to winning a title than the Celtics.  Give me a break.  Rubio and Rondo is a wash... but tell me who we are going to get with our 25 mil in cap room that is comparable to Kevin Love.  Then you have Pekovic who is far and away better than any non-KG big man on this roster, Derrick Williams (#2 pick last year ... HUGE trade value) players like Randolph and Beasley (who if they played in boston would instantly be our most intriguing young prospects and be hailed as the next *insert Celtic Legend*)... Doubt there is a single rational person on this forum who wouldnt' trade our Roster for the Wolves.

I wouldn't trade our GM for David Kahn there.  Very good chance he could mess that up.  They need some veterans in there in the worst way.  They keep acquiring young guys and draft picks, but that's good in the early stages of rebuilding.  Then you need to make the next move.  Have to show some of the younger players what it takes to win, and they aren't going to get that by starting Wesley Johnson (a lower PER than Sasha Pavlovic.)  They're 16-16 and losing a lot of games that they shouldn't.  Talentwise, that should be a playoff team but they probably won't be with Martell Webter and Wesley Johnson types.

Tell me you seriously wouldn't swap positions with the Hornets right now.

A team that might be contracted? No thanks.

It gets worse, though.  Take a look at a bottomfeeder team like the Detroit Pistons.  This is a team that unquestionably had more success than our 3 year contender...  They managed to stay contenders for 7 years, won the title once, made it to the finals a 2nd time and made it to the Eastern Conference Finals 4 of those other years.  They also have a 4 year head-start on rebuilding.  Right now in our situation we're about where the PIstons were in 2008.  Tell me you wouldn't rather have 21 year old BEAST Earl Monroe (averaging 16 and 10) and the 6th best odds of winning this lotto than 26 year old Rondo and what's left of Paul Pierce.  The Detroit Pistons are closer to winning a title than we are.

We are in for a long haul and we don't have much as far as assets right now.  Most people want us to just play out this season, watch KG, Ray and Pierce gracefully retire as Celtics... maybe make a couple more late seed playoff appearances in the process.  We're basically prolonging our misery by doing so.  If you want 3 more years of this garbage, then that's 3 more years you have to wait for a chance to add a Greg Monroe... and by the time that finally happens Rondo will be pushing 30. 

I like Monroe but they don't have much else.  They tied themselves into two horrible contracts, and they are probably stuck in Raptorland.  So unless they can add another impact guy in the draft, they won't do much, and they can't do a thing in free agency because they are stuck with huge contracts of Stuckey, Gordon and Charlie V.  It remains to be seen if Brandon Knight even develops into a Darren Collison type.

I like what the Pacers have done.  I think that's something we should look at.  They never had any high picks, but picked well, made solid moves in free agency, and kept adding to the team.  They also did this while keeping a lot of cap flexibility.  They're going to be able to improve their team going forward.  They blew their team up five years ago when they dumped Artest and JO one year later, and now after five years they are in great shape.

Hey I look at each one of those teams and the simple fact that they have SOMETHING means they are closer to winning a title than we are.  Our title hopes rests on guys who probably aren't even in the NBA yet.  We're talking about a rebuild that could take a decade.  I'd much rather have assets than watch this sitting duck team go through the motions for a couple years and THEN begin our lengthy rebuild.

So to that point... I'd gladly take Eric Gordon and the 2nd pick over Rondo and nothing.  Simply because each one of those teams has started their rebuild... they are by default closer to winning a title than a team that is possibly another 2 seasons away from even starting.

The way I look at it... Dwight and Deron are off the table by the time free agency comes around.  So there's basically two logical paths here.  #1 - You resign Ray and KG and bleed this out through the remainder of Pierce's contract (most likely)   #2 - You let KG and Ray walk and spend the 25 mil on some combination of Jeff Green, Brandon Bass... and maybe a Chris Kaman or a Lamar Odom. 

Either way, I'd rather have the Kings roster right now.

Ainge might surprise me, and start acquiring assets for Pierce and Ray... but the way I see it right now, it's pretty miserable looking.

[LooseCannon]

How many teams have gotten high lottery picks (top three) without being woefully mismanaged, lucky at ping pong balls, or unlucky with injuries?

Is Danny Ainge the biggest impediment to rebuilding through the draft and snagging a franchise player because he is too competent?

[birdbrady]

Hey I look at each one of those teams and the simple fact that they have SOMETHING means they are closer to winning a title than we are.  Our title hopes rests on guys who probably aren't even in the NBA yet.

You can't just look at current rosters though.  There are far more important factors in place, yes even more important than rosters.  Because players come and go.  Ownership, management, and coaching.  Those are three things you better be in good shape at.  You can always get rid of a player whenever you want (unless they have horrible contracts, and who's in charge of giving those out?), but teams can be stuck with bad  ownership forever (see: Clippers).  We at least have money for the groceries (Wyc), someone who can shop for the groceries (Ainge), and someone who can cook the meal (Doc.)  So we're going to have to take some time out of day after partying hard the night before.  Oh well.

We're talking about a rebuild that could take a decade.  I'd much rather have assets than watch this sitting duck team go through the motions for a couple years and THEN begin our lengthy rebuild.

You just said it would take five years in your first post and now it's a decade? If it takes a decade, Ainge would be long gone.  Like I said, use the Laker example.  After Magic retired in 91, they were stuck with crap.  They had one decent young asset (Vlade), a bunch of overpaid guys, no real assets, and they weren't bad enough.  From 92-94, they were an 8 seed twice and were on the back-end of the lottery once.  They hit on all those picks that year (even got quality in the second in Van Exel), and then picked up solid guys in free agency.  Made a good coaching hire (Del Harris) who coached the young players well and put in a good system.  Presto! They were a 50 win team by 1995, and had hoards of cap space to go after Shaq two years later.

So to that point... I'd gladly take Eric Gordon and the 2nd pick over Rondo and nothing.  Simply because each one of those teams has started their rebuild... they are by default closer to winning a title than a team that is possibly another 2 seasons away from even starting.

Roster-wise, I'm sure.  But it's what they do with it, bro.  They don't even have an owner, and have an unproven coach and GM.  We have arguably a top 5 owner, GM, and coach in the league.

The way I look at it... Dwight and Deron are off the table by the time free agency comes around.  So there's basically two logical paths here.  #1 - You resign Ray and KG and bleed this out through the remainder of Pierce's contract (most likely)   #2 - You let KG and Ray walk and spend the 25 mil on some combination of Jeff Green, Brandon Bass... and maybe a Chris Kaman or a Lamar Odom. 

Either way, I'd rather have the Kings roster right now.

Ainge might surprise me, and start acquiring assets for Pierce and Ray... but the way I see it right now, it's pretty miserable looking.

See here:

So after all of this, what are my suggestions? Well, I’m not going to be as concrete.  But the most important thing is to remain patient.  Don’t make moves for the sake of making one.  The rebuilding is here, and we accept this.  If the team can trade Ray for a first round pick, as late as it may be, I believe, of course, you do this.  I think Ainge does as well, but as reported by arguably the best NBA insider, Adrian Wojnarowski, this possibility isn’t even on the table as of now February 21st, 2012.  Kevin Garnett, and his contract, is virtually un-tradable if it were to be acquire an asset like a pick so fans can forget about that.  Unless the team wants to take a bad contract back along with an asset or two, it is best to just let expire.  Now, with Pierce and Rondo, unless there’s a deal that significantly improves the team both short and long term, I say, this is where the patience comes in.  I believe the team owes it to themselves and the fans to make a however fruitless run at Dwight Howard and Deron Williams this off-season.  For all of those that say “the odds of them coming here are slim to none,” I say you have a more than fair point.  However, how are those odds of them coming to Boston (1-5%) any different than getting a franchise game changing #1 pick after blowing it up entirely? And certainly, a however fruitless chase for a few weeks at those superstars is certainly more beneficial to the franchise than a potential meaningless chase for years on end for a franchise-saving superstar at the top of the lottery.  Hold onto Pierce and Rondo until the summer.  Then Ainge can amnesty Pierce providing he miraculously gets those two to sign, and then trade Rondo for any type of contributor to pair with the two new franchise players.  Once and if Ainge doesn’t get Howard and Williams to commit, Ainge can then go forth with trading Rondo for something else he feels might help the team.  Or, he can keep Rondo and then build around him.  And with the captain, Ainge can trade Pierce for flexibility, or have him ride out his career and retire a Celtic.  Ainge doesn’t have to blow it up right now this very second and then ‘see what happens.’  That’s a recipe for disaster.  And fortunately, I don’t believe he will.

So in all, the keys are to keep as many options as possible open, be flexible, and improve the talent of the team whether it is incrementally through drafting solid mid-level talent and other minor trades, or drastically with a game-changing free agent signing this summer or in the near future.  Do not make a move for the sake of getting people to talk about the team.  We, as Celtics fans, have accepted the rebuilding process – as long as there is a plan.  Let’s not irrational emotions force change of plans either.

[birdbrady]

How many teams have gotten high lottery picks (top three) without being woefully mismanaged, lucky at ping pong balls, or unlucky with injuries?

Is Danny Ainge the biggest impediment to rebuilding through the draft and snagging a franchise player because he is too competent?

The Blazers, I thought, were really well managed in the mid 2000s after Kevin Pritchard came in and cleared out that JailBlazer mess.

The lottery is what it is - luck.  You don't set your rebuilding plans over ping pong balls.  You just make moves to increase the talent pool, maintain flexibility - and if you are lucky enough to win the lottery like Portland was, great.  Too bad Portland blew it after they won it.