Restoring some sanity here: Quality rebuilding talk, and how long will it take?

[cman88]

its kind of a skewed question, or answer to say "5years min" depending on what the celtics do...thats assuming we strike out on all Free agents and go total Charlotte bobcats rebuild mode.

I dont think danny is going to go ALL draft and tank route...or else he wouldnt have made sure we have this cap-space...him going hard after david west/CP3 shows that danny is going to go after any superstar that hits the market...whether it will work out remains to be seen...we still have an allstar PG(who players like josh smith/oj mayo have said would love to play with) and a championship Coach in Doc Rivers with a proven system/winning ownership..that usually combines to attract talent.

but Im not sure why everyone is so negative on Free agents coming here..sure there is no real history of any coming here..but we also have NEVER been in this position to really go after top free agents..in the 90s/00's we were cap strapped by bad contracts that crippled us...danny used much of his first few years here trying to rid us of those contracts. then we get the big 3 and are still cap strapped...

it will be interesting to see what danny does with this cap-space....but realistically if we strike out this year, there are still alot of good free agents in 2013. OJ mayo, Josh smith etc. maybe not franchise changing guys..

The whole "tank and hope for the best" isnt exactly the best way to rebuild a team...for every Chicago/Okc there is the Bobcats, Raptors and Nets who have been so called "rebuilding" for years.

Good management, Free agent signings, and drafting is the way to build a team.

[LarBrd33]

David Lee is a grossly overpaid, no-defense playing role player.  Curry has yet to prove he's going to be healthy, and if that team ever develops into a title contender Eillis won't be on it because he's a ballhog.

Golden State has been in 'golden' situations the last 35 years and they've been spinning their wheels.  Why you brought that sorry sack of losers up I don't know.

Just on that point.  I don't like Ellis at all.  I agree with you on Ellis.  But he's a 26 year old guard who gives you 24 points, 5 assists, 4 rebounds and a couple steals a night.  He's got as much trade value as ANYONE on the Celtics.  Let it sink it.

Steph Curry is phenomenal... unfortunately he plays with Ellis.  While Ellis is jacking up 20 shots a night, 23 year old Curry (still on his rookie contract btw) is stuck with 13.  From the outside this wouldn't seem like a big deal... until you realize that Curry is a top 4 shooter in this league (up there with Nash, Durant and Ray) and shoots 48%... a RIDICULOUS 45% from three (while knocking down 2.5 a night) and 90% from the line.   Sorry you're not sold on Curry... there's a clear reason why Golden State will be trading Ellis prior to the deadline and it's because of Curry.  Curry has so much value right now that the Warriors passed on trading him for Chris Paul.  Let that one sink in too.

Lastly... David Lee.  Maybe not that impressive to you... but he's a 20 and 10 guy (50% shooter) on two different teams now... he's 28 years old... and he makes 13-15 mil over the next few years.   God bless you, if you if you think the Celtics are going to find a 28 year old 20 and 10 guy this offseason for 13-15 mil.  That's adorable.  If David Lee played in Boston we'd be seeing comparisons on this forum to Dave Cowens within his first two games.  Let that one sink in.

It's also fair to mention that they DON'T HAVE A SINGLE PLAYER ON THEIR TEAM OVER 30.  Their roster is littered with young guys who if they played in Boston we'd be hearing daily comparisons to (insert former Celtic legend here).

Guys like Udoh who was the 6th pick two years ago and guys like Klay Thompson who was the 11th pick this year.  They all have trade value.  Even Wright and Rush (26 years old and capable) have value.  This is the kind of squad that Danny Ainge converted into an aging contender in 2008...

"Why you brought that sorry sack of losers up I don't know."... I bring them up for exactly that reason.  They are a random sack of losers... and I'd gladly trade places with them in a nanosecond.  We have very little positive on our squad.  I'd take Curry over Rondo without hesitation... and if you think you're getting an Ellis-level player, a Lee-level player and boatloads of young prospects this offseason to fit around Rondo you're absolutely kidding yourself.

Golden State is far closer to a title than our team is.  That's not to say they will win a title (nor is it to say we will)... it's just to say that they are years ahead of us in rebuilding and thus... closer to a title.

That's just one team.  There's at least a dozen other random "sorry sack of losers" that I (and surely Ainge) would gladly trade this roster for.  That doesn't take away from what we accomplished during our 3 year run.  We won a title.  We made sacrifices.  It's over now, though... and it's time to start the lengthy rebuild.

5 years MINIMUM... maximum of NEVER.




 

[birdbrady]

Just on that point.  I don't like Ellis at all.  I agree with you on Ellis.  But he's a 26 year old guard who gives you 24 points, 5 assists, 4 rebounds and a couple steals a night.  He's got as much trade value as ANYONE on the Celtics.  Let it sink it.

Well, let's see what happens when they actually trade him.

Steph Curry is phenomenal... unfortunately he plays with Ellis.  While Ellis is jacking up 20 shots a night, 23 year old Curry (still on his rookie contract btw) is stuck with 13.  From the outside this wouldn't seem like a big deal... until you realize that Curry is a top 4 shooter in this league (up there with Nash, Durant and Ray) and shoots 48%... a RIDICULOUS 45% from three (while knocking down 2.5 a night) and 90% from the line.   Sorry you're not sold on Curry... there's a clear reason why Golden State will be trading Ellis prior to the deadline and it's because of Curry.  Curry has so much value right now that the Warriors passed on trading him for Chris Paul.  Let that one sink in too.

I like Steph Curry too, he's the real keeper, providing he's healthy.  But did you see your last point:

Curry has so much value right now that the Warriors passed on trading him for Chris Paul.  Let that one sink in

Again, management is just as important to this, if not more important than the players.  You just proved my point.  The Warriors were moronic enough not to trade Curry for Chris Paul.  You think Danny doesn't do that?

Lastly... David Lee.  Maybe not that impressive to you... but he's a 20 and 10 guy (50% shooter) on two different teams now... he's 28 years old... and he makes 13-15 mil over the next few years.   God bless you, if you if you think the Celtics are going to find a 28 year old 20 and 10 guy this offseason for 13-15 mil.  That's adorable.  If David Lee played in Boston we'd be seeing comparisons on this forum to Dave Cowens within his first two games.  Let that one sink in.

So because the average board IQ here isn't that high means David Lee is awesome?  You won't be hearing Dave Cowens comparisons from me, or Danny Ainge, and that's all that matters.

David Lee is what he is - he's a one way player, and he's not even a 20 PER guy playing in an offense oriented system making all but max money.

I hope and pray to God we don't throw away all of our cap space for the next five years on that

It's also fair to mention that they DON'T HAVE A SINGLE PLAYER ON THEIR TEAM OVER 30.  Their roster is littered with young guys who if they played in Boston we'd be hearing daily comparisons to (insert former Celtic legend here).

Guys like Udoh who was the 6th pick two years ago and guys like Klay Thompson who was the 11th pick this year.  They all have trade value.  Even Wright and Rush (26 years old and capable) have value.  This is the kind of squad that Danny Ainge converted into an aging contender in 2008...

"Why you brought that sorry sack of losers up I don't know."... I bring them up for exactly that reason.  They are a random sack of losers... and I'd gladly trade places with them in a nanosecond.  We have very little positive on our squad.  I'd take Curry over Rondo without hesitation... and if you think you're getting an Ellis-level player, a Lee-level player and boatloads of young prospects this offseason to fit around Rondo you're absolutely kidding yourself.

Golden State is far closer to a title than our team is.  That's not to say they will win a title (nor is it to say we will)... it's just to say that they are years ahead of us in rebuilding and thus... closer to a title.

Whatever dude.  Why you are using that sorry-sack of a franchise to compare it to this is beyond me.  Rosters is one thing, but management, coaching and ownership is more important.  If you have good management and ownership eventually you are going to get a good roster.

The Warriors have been 'young' and 'up and coming' for 35 freaking years dude.  For someone who's complaining about 'painful' rebuilding years so much, then your fascination for those losers baffles me.  They've been rebuilding since the end of the Vietnam War.

[LarBrd33]

I just want to add something to the above about Monta Ellis.

If you're the Orlando Magic and the trade deadline comes creeping up next month and you're all but certain to lose Dwight to free agency in the offseason (likely to the Nets)... Do you just stand pat?  Do you take Bynum from the Lakers?  Do you take back Brook Lopez + whatever from the Nets?

What if Golden State said, "We'll give you Ellis (reasonable 11 mil), Kwame's 6 mil expiring and maybe  a couple of our young prospects (Thompson and Udoh, for example) or future draft picks for Dwight.  Don't you take that??  The inside/outside Curry and Dwight is frightening to think about.    

Doesn't that mean the Warriors are closer to landing Dwight than the Celtics?  I don't mean to pinpoint the Warriors like this... the point is they are just a random team... but when you look at that random team it's hard not to find their situation favorable to ours.

[greg683x]

So because the average board IQ here isn't that high means David Lee is awesome?

lol   smh.

[LooseCannon]

Lastly... David Lee.  Maybe not that impressive to you... but he's a 20 and 10 guy (50% shooter) on two different teams now... he's 28 years old... and he makes 13-15 mil over the next few years.   God bless you, if you if you think the Celtics are going to find a 28 year old 20 and 10 guy this offseason for 13-15 mil.  That's adorable.  If David Lee played in Boston we'd be seeing comparisons on this forum to Dave Cowens within his first two games.  Let that one sink in.

I'd probably be comparing Lee to Carlos Boozer.  Boozer seems to be better offense and not worse defense (not necessarily better...just not clearly worse). 

[Celtics4ever]

Dave Cowens no way, you obviously never saw Cowens play.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fAXc6u_jGVM

David Lee could not even hold his jockstrap on the boards or toughness wise. 

Cowens did not average 10 RPG but rather 13.6 RPG.

[birdbrady]

More random thoughts on the rebuilding effort:

-I keep going back and forth on whether we should trade Ray for a 1st rounder ***IF IT IS AVAILABLE***  I said ***IF IT IS AVAILABLE*** because according to the best NBA Insider in the business (Woj), he said that it is not available at this moment.  That could obviously change when we get closer to the deadline and some team may change their mind and want Ray for the stretch run.  But even so, I'd be tempted to have Ray around.  I still want to make a run at Howard in the off-season even if there's a >10% chance at getting him.  A 5-10% chance at Dwight Howard is still better odds than blowing up your team, tanking, getting the #1 pick, the #1 pick being a Duncan-like blue-chipper, the #1 pick not getting hurt, the #1 pick developing like he was supposed to (which odds are like 0.5% and most Celtics fans cannot understand that for whatever reason.)  And besides, waiting for Dwight is not going to cripple your franchise.  Dwight signs somewhere else?  You move to plan B pretty quick.  If we can work out some sort of wink-wink deal with Dwight in that he'd join an off-season recruitment with Ray, I'd be all for sending him to say, a team like the Wolves (if they were smart enough to take him), grabbing a top 20 protected pick, and then going with what we have.

-I have no interest in trading Pierce unless it's for a good package.  I am not going to give up Pierce for an uber-protected draft-pick and cap space.  There are many reasons.  First, I don't want to become the Bobcats.  Second, we have enough cap space right now.  If we gave Pierce away, traded Rondo for cap space and other scraps, then we'd have to sign free agents to meet the salary floor.  I am perfectly fine with 23M of cap space.  If we need the cap space *that* bad this off-season, and Dwight and Deron somehow magically say they'd sign here, then you just amnesty Pierce.  A painful, but necessary move.  And lastly, these guys share the same agents.  While Pierce wasn't the best citizen especially from 2003-2005, he never publicly embarrassed the franchise and demanded a trade like so many of these  guys do today.  Everyone knew he was unhappy, but he could've taken it a step further.  So he showed *some* loyalty, and he also re-upped with us in 2006 when we were absolute crap.  I think you owe him a little bit of loyalty, and you don't just give him away when there's no real plan (except for the always moronic play of 'trot out a bunch of NBDLers and suck and pray you win the lottery.')  Although, like I said, of course you gottta do whats best for the franchise and if Dwight and Deron said they'd play here, then you cut Pierce.  Heck, even he'd understand.

-KG just knows one gear, and that's the 5th.  My God, they were getting absolutely embarrassed last night, it was the game before the AS break against the best in the West on the road, and this  guy was playing like it was Game 7 to decide the fate of the universe.  If we went into a rebuilding, I'd LOVE to have him around the young players.  Those who always say "Get rid of all the vets so the young guys can get burn!" are not very smart people.  One of the reasons a lot of the Celtics young players from 1957-1993 developed is because they were always around previous winners and knew what it would take to win in this league and what it meant to be a Celtic.  KG knows what it takes to win, and is more of a "Celtic" than anyone who's put on this jersey since Reggie Lewis and Sherman Douglas (yes, even you Paul).  Antoine Walker in 1997 played with a bunch of bums that were deliberately tanking.  And I personally thought this was the reason he underachieved for his career.  That year, he was never legitimately coached and developed awful habits because ML Carr just let him do whatever the hell he wanted to do.  So after being drafted as a 6'9", built like a statue, beast of a power forward who could handle the ball and pass -- it only took him four years for him to completely regress into an overweight, 3 pt chucking, selfish whiny gunner.  I want some of these guys around if we lose out on Dwight and we have to go into a 3-5 year rebuilding plan.  Watch from the best and make them EARN their time.  Don't just trot them out there and say "play ball and have fun!"  Doc believes in this method too.  He stated in like 2008-2009ish how in that 2007 year he had to play guys he didn't want too (and we all know it was Gerald), and how he HATES giving guys burn when they don't deserve it.  You gotta earn your way in this league.

-I'm really starting to come around on Avery Bradley.  In a year, his ball handling and jump shot went from 'below D-league quality' to 'borderline acceptable.'  Clearly the kid is a hard worker.  Contrast this to Rondo who hasn't improved one aspect of his game since 2008.  He's just getting by on his God-gifted natural ability.  Bradley will never even become half the player Rondo is and the jury is still out he can be a rotation player on a championship team.  But last year, when I was watching him I thought he was one of the worst players in the league, and the odds of him becoming a bust were 100%.  Not 95%, 100%.  I already wrote him off.  Seeing Bradley develop here makes me feel better about Ainge.  I was giving him grief because he hadn't come away with a good player out of the draft since Big Baby in the 2007 2nd round, but Bradley was a decent pick.  Especially considering the 2010 draft was historically weak. And he's already a better player than the guy I wanted (Bledsoe.)

-Gotta keep Doc around.  I know he's signed for five years, but if we went into a rebuilding and this team was sucking for 3 years, I'm not sure he finishes his contract.  I don't see him going through 2006 and 2007 again.  He was younger, and he wasn't the established, and respected guy that he is now.  Guys love playing for Doc, and he's so highly regarded around the league.  If we are to have *ANY* chance at a free agent coming to Boston, Doc HAS to be here.  Adrian Woj, in that same EEI interview stated that while Boston isn't #1, 2, or 3 on these free agents lists, it is now on the map because a lot of NBA players have respect for Danny and Doc's program.  If we lose Doc, then Boston immediately becomes Charlotte to these guys.

[PosImpos]

-I have no interest in trading Pierce unless it's for a good package.  I am not going to give up Pierce for an uber-protected draft-pick and cap space.  There are many reasons.  First, I don't want to become the Bobcats.  Second, we have enough cap space right now.  If we gave Pierce away, traded Rondo for cap space and other scraps, then we'd have to sign free agents to meet the salary floor.  I am perfectly fine with 23M of cap space.  If we need the cap space *that* bad this off-season, and Dwight and Deron somehow magically say they'd sign here, then you just amnesty Pierce.  A painful, but necessary move.  And lastly, these guys share the same agents.  While Pierce wasn't the best citizen especially from 2003-2005, he never publicly embarrassed the franchise and demanded a trade like so many of these  guys do today.  Everyone knew he was unhappy, but he could've taken it a step further.  So he showed *some* loyalty, and he also re-upped with us in 2006 when we were absolute crap.  I think you owe him a little bit of loyalty, and you don't just give him away when there's no real plan (except for the always moronic play of 'trot out a bunch of NBDLers and suck and pray you win the lottery.')  Although, like I said, of course you gottta do whats best for the franchise and if Dwight and Deron said they'd play here, then you cut Pierce.  Heck, even he'd understand.

-KG just knows one gear, and that's the 5th.  My God, they were getting absolutely embarrassed last night, it was the game before the AS break against the best in the West on the road, and this  guy was playing like it was Game 7 to decide the fate of the universe.  If we went into a rebuilding, I'd LOVE to have him around the young players.  Those who always say "Get rid of all the vets so the young guys can get burn!" are not very smart people.  One of the reasons a lot of the Celtics young players from 1957-1993 developed is because they were always around previous winners and knew what it would take to win in this league and what it meant to be a Celtic.  KG knows what it takes to win, and is more of a "Celtic" than anyone who's put on this jersey since Reggie Lewis and Sherman Douglas (yes, even you Paul).  Antoine Walker in 1997 played with a bunch of bums that were deliberately tanking.  And I personally thought this was the reason he underachieved for his career.  That year, he was never legitimately coached and developed awful habits because ML Carr just let him do whatever the hell he wanted to do.  So after being drafted as a 6'9", built like a statue, beast of a power forward who could handle the ball and pass -- it only took him four years for him to completely regress into an overweight, 3 pt chucking, selfish whiny gunner.  I want some of these guys around if we lose out on Dwight and we have to go into a 3-5 year rebuilding plan.  Watch from the best and make them EARN their time.  Don't just trot them out there and say "play ball and have fun!"  Doc believes in this method too.  He stated in like 2008-2009ish how in that 2007 year he had to play guys he didn't want too (and we all know it was Gerald), and how he HATES giving guys burn when they don't deserve it.  You gotta earn your way in this league.

Main reason, when we begin the rebuilding process, to trade Pierce and not bring back KG:

David Thorpe has been making similar points for years. He talks all the time about "the royal jelly." Literally, that's what worker bees feed a chosen baby bee to make her the queen. But it's also, says Thorpe, what coaches and others can feed players to help them achieve their potential. A lot of it has to do with building confidence. Throughout his career, Thorpe has been accused of hyping up his players up and giving them big heads, to which he replies, jokingly, "guilty!" Thorpe is convinced that "the royal jelly" can and has fundamentally changed the careers of countless players. The gold standard of helping a player evolve, he says, starts with playing time.

"without a coach's support and playing time, it's almost impossible to tell what most late-drafted players would have done."

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/14779/to-young-players-playing-time-is-oxygen


Veteran mentors are great, and I agree that they are important on a rebuilding team to maintain a winning culture.  But unless they're playing 10 minutes or fewer a night, they're taking up precious minutes which are incredibly valuable for young players, regardless of how high they are drafted.

This is especially true since we have a coach who believes in giving out playing time based on what a player has "earned" in terms of trust with the coaching staff and cred from time spent in the league.  Developing young players is going to mean not always giving playing time to the best players on the team, but giving them to the players who it is most important for the team to develop.

[birdbrady]

Main reason, when we begin the rebuilding process, to trade Pierce and not bring back KG:

David Thorpe has been making similar points for years. He talks all the time about "the royal jelly." Literally, that's what worker bees feed a chosen baby bee to make her the queen. But it's also, says Thorpe, what coaches and others can feed players to help them achieve their potential. A lot of it has to do with building confidence. Throughout his career, Thorpe has been accused of hyping up his players up and giving them big heads, to which he replies, jokingly, "guilty!" Thorpe is convinced that "the royal jelly" can and has fundamentally changed the careers of countless players. The gold standard of helping a player evolve, he says, starts with playing time.

"without a coach's support and playing time, it's almost impossible to tell what most late-drafted players would have done."

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/14779/to-young-players-playing-time-is-oxygen


Veteran mentors are great, and I agree that they are important on a rebuilding team to maintain a winning culture.  But unless they're playing 10 minutes or fewer a night, they're taking up precious minutes which are incredibly valuable for young players, regardless of how high they are drafted.

This is especially true since we have a coach who believes in giving out playing time based on what a player has "earned" in terms of trust with the coaching staff and cred from time spent in the league.  Developing young players is going to mean not always giving playing time to the best players on the team, but giving them to the players who it is most important for the team to develop.

Oh I didn't know Pierce and Garnett, at this stage of their careers, were going to hog every last minute and play all 48 of a game, not giving a single young player a chance to play.

Here's a history lesson for you: in 2004-2005 season, the Celtics had three first round draft picks.  That 2005 Celtics team had a nice mix of veteran and young guys.  Officially, it was apart of the rebuilding time frame, but the team tried to win every game, and played hard most of the time.  They had Gary Payton, Ricky Davis, Paul Pierce, Antoine Walker, Raef LaFrentz playing the most minutes.  They ended up winning their division, and headed into the post-season as the third seed in the conference.  How did the three first round draft picks develop (AL, Allen, West)? I'd say just fine thank you.  Fast-forward to 2007 when the team was force-feeding Gerald Green minutes.  Guy was a washout.  This should be pretty simple to understand.  Hell, look at my point about Avery Bradley.  Guy sat on the bench all of 2011, and whenever he'd come in, he'd humiliate himself.  Only made him hungrier, and make him work harder.  You give players minutes in this league that they don't deserve, there's just as good of a chance they develop bad habits, get complacent, and wash out - as there is as good of a chance as they use playing time to improve their game.

From 2005-present (Doc years), name ONE young player that we had that 'got away from us' after we never 'gave them a chance.'  You can't.  There isn't one.  Remember all the people that were clamoring for Doc (and even John Carroll in 2004) to play Marcus Banks more? There was reason: he didn't deserve it. He didn't have what it took.  Despite being physically gifted.  Kid is rotting away in the NBDL somewhere now.

And that's funny you quote David Thorpe, while I quote Doc Rivers.  Hmmmm...David Thorpe - running some D-level NBA training joint in some hickville in Florida / Doc Rivers - arguably the best coach in the NBA.

And then you also quote Henry Abbott?! Who in the blue hell is Henry Abbott? Anyways, let me break down his 'piece' that you posted like it was a Bible verse:


If that's the case, one thing you'd see is all kinds of players who had been rejected in one NBA city succeeding in another. That's so common it's hardly worth documenting.

    That's the story of Chauncey Billups' early career.

LOL! Billups got plenty of 'playing time' in his 25 (or whatever) stops he had before Minnesota.  He played on a bunch of scrub teams and then he went to his first competitive team in Minny in 2002, and all of a sudden he 'got it.'  Hmmmm, who was (the best player) on that 2002 Wolves team again? Do we have any guys like that?

How about Jermaine O'Neal who could barely get on the court for four years in Portland then became a monster All-Star in Indiana?

Everybody knew JO could play when he was on Portland.  He just couldn't get on the court because that Blazers team was competing for a title, and they were already stacked at the positions he played with Sheed, Sabas, and Brian Grant.  Portland just didn't want to take the risk and have a young guy mess things up for them (altho their vets were quite good at blowing a 15 pt 4th quarter lead in Game 7 @ LA) so they just couldn't play him.  But the Celtics offered 3 first rounders for Jermaine in the summer of 2000, and they actually TURNED THAT DOWN.  Jermaine was not some 'find'  Portland knew what they had, but they were just glutted at his position that he couldn't get on the court.

Ben Wallace led the Pistons to a title, after being a trade throw-in who couldn't really make his mark in Washington and Orlando.

How is this an example? Ben Wallace was an undrafted guy who slowly but surely honed his defensive ability little by little and year by year.  Also, Ben Wallace was NOT a 'trade throw-in' who 'couldn't make his mark in Orlando.'  He was a huge part of that 2000 Magic team (coached by Doc) that nearly made the playoffs with a bunch of lowe-level talent.  Doc LOVED Ben.  Ben was the main guy that was traded for Grant Hill.  So, that just shows you what Henry Abbott knows which should immediately disqualify the rest of this pathetic column.

IIf you saw the Rockets vs. Grizzlies last night, you probably remember the Grizzlies broadcasters being amazed at how well Jordan Hill played as a Rocket. Nobody talked about him like that when he was a Knick a couple of months ago.
Does anybody doubt young Maverick Rodrique Beaubois has the skills to be a rookie of the year candidate? Opponents aren't doing much to contain him, but with games to win and veterans to play, Rick Carlisle can shut him down at will.

These guys are nothing.  Dallas is all but trying to give away Beabois because he's one of those guys without a position: http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/219118/Mavericks_Willing_To_Trade_Beaubois

Ridiculous examples.

On the flip side, the Thunder have fed Serge Ibaka minutes all season, even when it wasn't obvious that was smart. He has become a huge contributor for them, but it wasn't always clear that would be so. (And if the Grizzlies had done the same thing for Hasheem Thabeet, how good might he be now?)

Maybe the only legitimate case to 'prove' an argument.  There are outliers for everything.  Right now it's like 5-1 and I haven't even gotten to the rest of the piece.

I can keep going: Wesley Matthews is not just a rookie, but an undrafted rookie. Last summer no team thought he was worth even a second-round pick. Now, thanks in no small part to the minutes and support he got from Jerry Sloan, he's starting for the team John Hollinger's power rankings call the fourth best in the NBA.

Wes Matthews played for Sloan.  Utah has always had a great history f coaching up these guys (Millsap, a second round pick.)  So this proves MY point that you need good coaching, good practices, play within the system and these guys develop.  Not just go out there and screw around like Antoine Walker did in 97 and Gerald did in 07.

Reggie Williams -- fresh out of the D-League -- is averaging 15 points and five rebounds starting for the Golden State Warriors.
Darko Milicic has been seen as one of the most notorious failures in NBA history. He was on his way to returning to Europe, likely never to return to the NBA. The Timberwolves, however, have treated him like a great player. They have asked him to do a lot, in long minutes. With that trust, he's showing strong progress towards becoming the exact kind of player everyone always hoped he could be.

LOL two guys who absolutely washed out.  Reggie Williams is one of the worst players in the NBA right now.  So all that playing time and 'development' -> guy is an egregious gunner who lobs enough bricks up every game for Charlotte to rebuild the Berlin Wall.  And in Darko's play, two months of decent stats on a horrible team made Kahn give him a moronic contract and then go on to call him 'the best passing big man I have ever seen http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iGZebWRJWg4&feature=player_detailpage#t=150s

[Marcus13]

That's on Danny.

He's got two very good players under reasonable contracts and tons of cap room - quality teams like the Lakers would easily be able to make that a playoff team next season...other teams like the Pacers would try some things and fail until they finally stumble upon something that works after four or five years.

We'll see what Mr. Ainge is made of -- it's redemption time

[PosImpos]

Main reason, when we begin the rebuilding process, to trade Pierce and not bring back KG:

David Thorpe has been making similar points for years. He talks all the time about "the royal jelly." Literally, that's what worker bees feed a chosen baby bee to make her the queen. But it's also, says Thorpe, what coaches and others can feed players to help them achieve their potential. A lot of it has to do with building confidence. Throughout his career, Thorpe has been accused of hyping up his players up and giving them big heads, to which he replies, jokingly, "guilty!" Thorpe is convinced that "the royal jelly" can and has fundamentally changed the careers of countless players. The gold standard of helping a player evolve, he says, starts with playing time.

"without a coach's support and playing time, it's almost impossible to tell what most late-drafted players would have done."

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/14779/to-young-players-playing-time-is-oxygen


Veteran mentors are great, and I agree that they are important on a rebuilding team to maintain a winning culture.  But unless they're playing 10 minutes or fewer a night, they're taking up precious minutes which are incredibly valuable for young players, regardless of how high they are drafted.

This is especially true since we have a coach who believes in giving out playing time based on what a player has "earned" in terms of trust with the coaching staff and cred from time spent in the league.  Developing young players is going to mean not always giving playing time to the best players on the team, but giving them to the players who it is most important for the team to develop.

Oh I didn't know Pierce and Garnett, at this stage of their careers, were going to hog every last minute and play all 48 of a game, not giving a single young player a chance to play.

 Right, that's exactly what I was saying.


Are you suggesting that Pierce wouldn't play at least 30 minutes per game next season?  Or that if KG comes back, Doc wouldn't play him at least 15-20 minutes a night?


BTW, I think you overrate Doc quite a bit calling him "arguably the best coach in the NBA."  He's a good coach, but I think that's going too far.  You also don't give David Thorpe enough credit -- he's a well renowned talent-evaluator and development coach who works with a lot of young NBA players every summer (Joakim Noah and Kevin Martin being two of the most prominent).


In any case, it's become obvious to me, birdbrady, that you're unwilling to accept any viewpoint that diverges from your own; you've demonstrated that you will always choose to interpret reality in a way that confirms your own assertions, without giving any credit to opposing viewpoints.  In short, you're not  worth talking to.

[birdbrady]

  Right, that's exactly what I was saying.


Are you suggesting that Pierce wouldn't play at least 30 minutes per game next season?  Or that if KG comes back, Doc wouldn't play him at least 15-20 minutes a night?

How many young guys do you expect on the team next year? Right now we have two draft picks, and one will be really late.  SOMEONE has to play minutes.  You can easily get a few of our young players, IF THEY EARN IT, 15-20 minutes a game with Garnett and Pierce on the roster.  My God.

BTW, I think you overrate Doc quite a bit calling him "arguably the best coach in the NBA."  He's a good coach, but I think that's going too far.

No it's not.  I don't consider Doc the best in the game, but many players do.  SI.com polled the players last year and he was 2nd to Pop.  I think that's all that matters.

You also don't give David Thorpe enough credit -- he's a well renowned talent-evaluator and development coach who works with a lot of young NBA players every summer (Joakim Noah and Kevin Martin being two of the most prominent).

Then why is he writing for ESPN.com and doesn't have a job with a team?

In any case, it's become obvious to me, birdbrady, that you're unwilling to accept any viewpoint that diverges from your own; you've demonstrated that you will always choose to interpret reality in a way that confirms your own assertions, without giving any credit to opposing viewpoints.  In short, you're not  worth talking to.

What an offensive comment.  Wow, especially when I actually put a lot of effort into my posts which are flooded with facts, and numerous historical references to base my arguments.  I get criticized for posts that are 'too long' and 'too much information.'  You'd rather read my stuff or some here who start threads every five seconds based on immediate reactions and emotions and are nothing more than 'WAHHH THIS TEAM SUCKS! I HATE IT.'  You'd think, even for someone who'd disagree with me, you'd show a little appreciation for the overall knowledge in my posts, ESPECIALLY considering how hard it is to find on a board like this where it can be few and far between at times, especially when the team is dropping  a few games in February.

[PosImpos]

  Right, that's exactly what I was saying.


Are you suggesting that Pierce wouldn't play at least 30 minutes per game next season?  Or that if KG comes back, Doc wouldn't play him at least 15-20 minutes a night?

How many young guys do you expect on the team next year? Right now we have two draft picks, and one will be really late.  SOMEONE has to play minutes.  You can easily get a few of our young players, IF THEY EARN IT, 15-20 minutes a game with Garnett and Pierce on the roster.  My God.

BTW, I think you overrate Doc quite a bit calling him "arguably the best coach in the NBA."  He's a good coach, but I think that's going too far.

No it's not.  I don't consider Doc the best in the game, but many players do.  SI.com polled the players last year and he was 2nd to Pop.  I think that's all that matters.

You also don't give David Thorpe enough credit -- he's a well renowned talent-evaluator and development coach who works with a lot of young NBA players every summer (Joakim Noah and Kevin Martin being two of the most prominent).

Then why is he writing for ESPN.com and doesn't have a job with a team?

In any case, it's become obvious to me, birdbrady, that you're unwilling to accept any viewpoint that diverges from your own; you've demonstrated that you will always choose to interpret reality in a way that confirms your own assertions, without giving any credit to opposing viewpoints.  In short, you're not  worth talking to.

What an offensive comment.  Wow, especially when I actually put a lot of effort into my posts which are flooded with facts, and numerous historical references to base my arguments.  I get criticized for posts that are 'too long' and 'too much information.'  You'd rather read my stuff or some here who start threads every five seconds based on immediate reactions and emotions and are nothing more than 'WAHHH THIS TEAM SUCKS! I HATE IT.'  You'd think, even for someone who'd disagree with me, you'd show a little appreciation for the overall knowledge in my posts, ESPECIALLY considering how hard it is to find on a board like this where it can be few and far between at times, especially when the team is dropping  a few games in February.

a) I expect Rondo, Avery, Green, Johnson, Moore, Stiemsma, 3 rookies (2 first round, 1 second round), Bass, perhaps a handful of cheap-ish veterans like Pietrus and Wilcox, and then a handful of vet. minimum mentors (e.g. Dooling).  Plenty of young guys and contributors on multi-year contracts who need to get integrated and developed.

b) of course players think Doc's great . . . he's a "players coach."

c) he's an occasional contributor to ESPN and he also works as a high profile trainer for NBA players and NBA hopefuls.  it's possible for a person to have more than one job.

d) I'm sorry that you're offended, but the mere fact that you write incredibly long posts -- which are often difficult to parse through since they aren't spaced out hardly at all -- doesn't make you a good poster or an enjoyable conversation partner.  There's something to be said for being concise and only making a few worthwhile points at a time that other people can actually hope to respond to. 
If every one of your posts is a treatise it tends to kill discussion, because even if people have the time and patience to read everything you write, it's hard to muster the energy then to respond to everything you wrote.

[birdbrady]

a) I expect Rondo, Avery, Green, Johnson, Moore, Stiemsma, 3 rookies (2 first round, 1 second round), Bass, perhaps a handful of cheap-ish veterans like Pietrus and Wilcox, and then a handful of vet. minimum mentors (e.g. Dooling).  Plenty of young guys and contributors on multi-year contracts who need to get integrated and developed.

You just named twelve guys without Pierce + any other signings.  Plus that contracts on that team does not even reach the salary floor unless you want to re-sign Jeff Green to huge money.  So I don't know how you got that.

b) of course players think Doc's great . . . he's a "players coach."

LOL I think that is pretty much all that matters.  Especially when I say that Doc is important to us having the oppurtunity to bring impact players here.

Once again, I didn't call Doc the best coach in the game.  I conveniently threw in the word 'arguably' and that is fair.  Because like I said, the players of the NBA 'arguably' consider him the best in the NBA (voted 2nd best.)

c) he's an occasional contributor to ESPN and he also works as a high profile trainer for NBA players and NBA hopefuls.  it's possible for a person to have more than one job.

I was aware of that.  If you read my posts you'd see I said this:
And that's funny you quote David Thorpe, while I quote Doc Rivers.  Hmmmm...David Thorpe - running some D-level NBA training joint in some hickville in Florida / Doc Rivers - arguably the best coach in the NBA.

d) I'm sorry that you're offended, but the mere fact that you write incredibly long posts -- which are often difficult to parse through since they aren't spaced out hardly at all -- doesn't make you a good poster or an enjoyable conversation partner.  There's something to be said for being concise and only making a few worthwhile points at a time that other people can actually hope to respond to.

The posts are all backed up with facts and historical references.  It's not run-on stuff and filled with fluff.  It's stuff like this where I try to prove my point of young players developing on veteran teams trying to win:

Here's a history lesson for you: in 2004-2005 season, the Celtics had three first round draft picks.  That 2005 Celtics team had a nice mix of veteran and young guys.  Officially, it was apart of the rebuilding time frame, but the team tried to win every game, and played hard most of the time.  They had Gary Payton, Ricky Davis, Paul Pierce, Antoine Walker, Raef LaFrentz playing the most minutes.  They ended up winning their division, and headed into the post-season as the third seed in the conference.  How did the three first round draft picks develop (AL, Allen, West)? I'd say just fine thank you.  Fast-forward to 2007 when the team was force-feeding Gerald Green minutes.  Guy was a washout.  This should be pretty simple to understand.  Hell, look at my point about Avery Bradley.  Guy sat on the bench all of 2011, and whenever he'd come in, he'd humiliate himself.  Only made him hungrier, and make him work harder.  You give players minutes in this league that they don't deserve, there's just as good of a chance they develop bad habits, get complacent, and wash out - as there is as good of a chance as they use playing time to improve their game.

From 2005-present (Doc years), name ONE young player that we had that 'got away from us' after we never 'gave them a chance.'  You can't.  There isn't one.  Remember all the people that were clamoring for Doc (and even John Carroll in 2004) to play Marcus Banks more? There was reason: he didn't deserve it. He didn't have what it took.  Despite being physically gifted.  Kid is rotting away in the NBDL somewhere now.

Conveniently you never decided to respond to that.  You took one phrase of a essay-long post and made a roll-eyed face.

If every one of your posts is a treatise it tends to kill discussion, because even if people have the time and patience to read everything you write, it's hard to muster the energy then to respond to everything you wrote.

I didn't know that posting on a message board = competing in a triathlon.  If you have a good understanding of the history of the game, and have a good memory its not hard to come up with the facts I present very quickly.