Author Topic: Restoring some sanity here: Quality rebuilding talk, and how long will it take?  (Read 12056 times)

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Offline birdbrady

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The window has officially closed on the Big 3 being the key players on a championship team.  Most of us felt that way after the playoffs last year, but there were some who held out hope and wanted to see if these guys had one more run left in them.  Two full months into this shortened season, and everyone rightfully feels that enough has been seen.  Fair.  The Celtics are 16-16 playing one of the easiest schedules in the league, and have two fatal flaws that automatically disqualify them from being capable of winning a championship.  They cannot rebound, and they cannot execute when it matters down the stretch.  We saw a bit of these flaws begin to sprout some time in the 2010 season, and continue into the 2011 season.  However, they were manageable to an extent because they were not as severe, and the team was talented enough and did other important things well enough consistently to put themselves in a position of winning basketball games that mattered.  That clearly is not the case anymore.  While I would never count this team out to steal a playoff series, as bad as they might be playing going in the playoffs (I learned my lesson in 2010), it all but goes against the laws of gravity for them to sustain the cream of the league in playoff intensity basketball for a month and a half.  It is not going to happen.  Think a football team winning the Super Bowl that cannot stop the run, and cannot execute offensively in the fourth quarter, and then multiply that by 100 because in the NFL you only need to win 3-4 games of that, while in the NBA, 16 is the magic number.

So where do we go from here? Well, to Celtics fans, for their health’s sake – I suggest removing almost all emotional attachment to this team.  That doesn’t mean to not watch or follow them.  But to be emotionally invested in every point, foul called, foul not called, missed defensive assignment, poor screen set, and every other nuance an NBA game brings will only led to unwarranted stress, and for some, irrational judgments of the Celtics organization.  If the team loses four straight next-to-meaningless regular season games that doesn’t mean the Celtics should trade Rondo for Andray Blatche, fire Doc, or sign Allen Iverson, or all three of these.  If the team makes the playoffs, great.  I will cheer hard for Rondo and the Big 3 (providing they are still here in May) to potentially give us some final memories.  They’ve given it their all here (besides for a few winter months in the 2010 regular season), and will continue to give their all.  They deserve it.  And if they went out in a lackluster 4 or 5 game series, it won’t bother me like it might bother the “I’d rather have a better draft pick crowd.”  We all should have learned from 2004 when that particular Celtics team made an utterly useless playoff appearance to my and everyone else’s dismay.  They took themselves out of the lottery, and got embarrassed in four straight games (all four losses by double digits – only the second time done in NBA history.)  However, in that draft, the team grabbed the centerpiece of the Kevin Garnett deal (Al Jefferson at 15.)  So almost all Celtics fans conveniently forget about that.  The lesson: do your homework, and draft someone who can play.  That is the case with this season.  Whether we miss the playoffs and pick 11 or make it and pick 15, that should still be a high enough pick to draft some talent who can help the team as someone who plays for us long term, is an asset to upgrade the talent of the team sometime down the line, or even traded immediately for future considerations.  Unless you have a top one, two, and at best three, pick and there is a franchise talent at the top of the board along the lines of Rose, Duncan, LeBron, Anthony – then the loss of barely missing the playoffs and getting a higher pick to barely making the playoffs and picking 15 isn’t as big as fans think.  Besides, this team owns two first round draft choices this season, so if the team had a player they really liked and was not significantly far ahead of where they were likely to be picked, then Ainge could make a move to acquire that particular player.

However, there’s obviously more to it than just this season, or these immediate days, weeks and months ahead.  This is now officially a bridge season, and the rebuild is on.  Making the post-season and picking 15th as opposed to missing the playoffs and likely picking 11th is not going to make or break the rebuild.  Flashback to May of 2003; when Ainge was hired, at his introductory press conference he announced to the press and the fans that he would rebuild the team, and that it would be a ‘five year plan’ (and sure enough, exactly five years later, June of 2008 – the team won its 17th championship.)  That team had a good young franchise player (whether he could be a #1 on a championship team was debatable, but there was no doubt after the 2002 playoff run that Pierce was a guy you could build a team around), an overrated and overweight max-money making ‘power’ forward who did not have much value around the league at the time, an absolute monstrosity albatross of a player and contract in Vin Baker, and then a bunch of overpaid role players.  The team also did not own any draft picks besides their own in the immediate future.  The team was a mess and only Ainge and a few intelligent Celtics fans knew it.  It was going to take time to build a legitimate championship team.  Ainge’s first major move was trading Antoine Walker, the wildly popular and overrated player amongst Celtics fans and the Boston media.  And he did so for a not-so great package, and that immediately got him off the wrong foot amongst the fans and media.  Then as the team did not do as well as they had in the 2002 and 2003 seasons, many fans were irrationally calling for Ainge to be fired when he was only in the beginning stages of his plan.  However, most saw a method to his madness.  After Ainge put the sledgehammer to those Jim O’Brien Celtics teams, he began to make moves that incrementally made the Celtics better.  He kept poking down-and-away pitches into the opposite field for singles, took walks, and waited till he could load the bases for a hanging curve ball to hit the grand slam with the summer of 2007.  For a run down on Ainge’s moves during those 03-06 years, see here: http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=53050.0 There were never any home runs there.  There were some not-so-great moves, and for his ‘good’ moves, they were at the time nothing more than B/B- moves, yet were important enough to contribute to putting ourselves in great position in 2007.

But will it take five years again? In the grand scheme of things, five years in NBA years is not a long time.  If you told me, that in 2017, 2018 we would be back as an elite team for the next four to five years, I think you take it and run.  The Bulls threw away an entire decade to get the team they have now.  They were spinning their wheels, drafting more young guys, tanking for high picks, trading established stars to take more high picks, not giving up some overrated young players to acquire an established star, make the playoffs as a paper tiger, then more tanking, get high picks, repeat; until finally they fell into Rose.  Ok, I guess it worked.  But for every Chicago, or even the uber-lucky Oklahoma City, there are teams like Golden State, Milwaukee, and others who have been running with this process for 20-30 years.  Some Celtics fans want to ‘blow-it-up’ entirely and want to trot out a bunch of young guys, and NBDLers, and then tank and ‘get a Rose.’  If only it was that easy.  Ainge actually had this in mind, but only as a last resort.  Ainge tried to eliminate a rebuilding process entirely by acquiring a Hall of Fame point guard in his prime, which would then be a possible precursor to acquiring a Hall of Fame big man in his prime.  No rebuilding, the Celtics would have their next title team, and it was off to the races.  And if that failed, and said Hall of Fame point guard walked, then the team was going to be stuck with a roster with nothing.  But as pointed out, that is a last resort.  The fallout from putting an atrocious product on the court, especially in Boston, and then telling the fans “well hopefully we can suck enough to get a great young player in here one day!” is severe. Is that what you tell your loyal season ticket holders who invest thousands of their hard-earned dollars into the team, especially during a tough economy? What if that was to continue for more years than anticipated? Season ticket holders, and other dedicated and invested fans would pour out by the thousands, and then ownership is stuck with a bad team in a bad economy that is losing money.  It may be the route Ainge has to take one day, but this is something that should be avoided by all means possible.  Some will point to San Antonio ‘tanking’ for Robinson in ’87 and Duncan ten years later.  However, besides those two years, the Spurs have always been competitive since they came into the NBA in 1977.  They did the right thing by cheating those two years to acquire a game changer.  The Celtics did the same thing in 1997, and 2007 (with Oden and Durant at the top), and no one should have had any problems with that.  Sometimes you have to cheat and cut corners a bit.  But to do this every year, create a culture of losing – the negatives can sometimes far outweigh the positives because the odds of the negatives happening are FAR greater than having that star fall out of the sky.

We can do it without the tanking.  Is it an option? Yes.  If there’s a season where there’s another Duncan at the top, and the team is a borderline playoff team or worse, there should be no problems with throwing it away.  But as pointed out, only if the Celtics absolutely have too.  Ainge has proven you can do this in a reasonable time.  Just make those solid moves.  When Ainge was acquiring a bunch of mid, and late first round draft picks, the national media was laughing at him telling him that he couldn’t ‘build a championship team on mid-level picks.’  But, he did.  Pierce was the 10th pick (not Ainge’s pick, but he was selected at 10 in 98), Jefferson 15th (center piece of Garnett trade), Delonte West 24th (part of Ray Allen trade), Tony Allen 25th (contributor on 08 and especially 10 Finals team), Gerald Green 18th (part of Garnett trade), Rajon Rondo 21st, and Glen Davis, Ryan Gomes, and Leon Powe all in the second round.  Ainge quietly grabbed extra firsts from the Lakers, Minnesota, and Cleveland, which were valuable as well.  The team really only had one high draft pick (#5 in 2007), and that was used to acquire Ray Allen (which was packaged with Delonte West, but also Wallly Szczerbaik’s near-max contract that was not an expiring.)  There will be times when Ainge has to come through big more times than others.  He will make mistakes, but even if he does, he easily has a chance to make up for them.  Using a Celtics example, in 2001, despite five solid years of Rick Pitino and Chris Wallace idiocy, the Celtics were in the position to build a contender for years to come.  They already had two very good young players (who at the time both had high value around the league), some decent role players who were good enough to be pieces on a good team, and three first round picks in a loaded draft, (and the possibility of rolling over Denver’s first round pick for other future drafts.)  They blew it all.  They also had the opportunity to package Antoine Walker with some other assets to acquire Elton Brand.   They blew that too.  Danny might make a few mistakes, and there will be some fans and media members that will crucify him for every time he selected Player X over Player Y in Z Draft, and that’s fine.  But as shown with the Celtics in the summer of 2001, anytime there’s a hanging curveball over the plate, then you have to hit it off the wall for a double, or even out of the park.  Will Ainge do it again, or will he fail miserably like Chris Wallace? That remains to be seen.  However, Ainge already came through for the Celtics in this aspect, so he is certainly deserving of another chance, or three.

So after all of this, what are my suggestions? Well, I’m not going to be as concrete.  But the most important thing is to remain patient.  Don’t make moves for the sake of making one.  The rebuilding is here, and we accept this.  If the team can trade Ray for a first round pick, as late as it may be, I believe, of course, you do this.  I think Ainge does as well, but as reported by arguably the best NBA insider, Adrian Wojnarowski, this possibility isn’t even on the table as of now February 21st, 2012.  Kevin Garnett, and his contract, is virtually un-tradable if it were to be acquire an asset like a pick so fans can forget about that.  Unless the team wants to take a bad contract back along with an asset or two, it is best to just let expire.  Now, with Pierce and Rondo, unless there’s a deal that significantly improves the team both short and long term, I say, this is where the patience comes in.  I believe the team owes it to themselves and the fans to make a however fruitless run at Dwight Howard and Deron Williams this off-season.  For all of those that say “the odds of them coming here are slim to none,” I say you have a more than fair point.  However, how are those odds of them coming to Boston (1-5%) any different than getting a franchise game changing #1 pick after blowing it up entirely? And certainly, a however fruitless chase for a few weeks at those superstars is certainly more beneficial to the franchise than a potential meaningless chase for years on end for a franchise-saving superstar at the top of the lottery.  Hold onto Pierce and Rondo until the summer.  Then Ainge can amnesty Pierce providing he miraculously gets those two to sign, and then trade Rondo for any type of contributor to pair with the two new franchise players.  Once and if Ainge doesn’t get Howard and Williams to commit, Ainge can then go forth with trading Rondo for something else he feels might help the team.  Or, he can keep Rondo and then build around him.  And with the captain, Ainge can trade Pierce for flexibility, or have him ride out his career and retire a Celtic.  Ainge doesn’t have to blow it up right now this very second and then ‘see what happens.’  That’s a recipe for disaster.  And fortunately, I don’t believe he will.

So in all, the keys are to keep as many options as possible open, be flexible, and improve the talent of the team whether it is incrementally through drafting solid mid-level talent and other minor trades, or drastically with a game-changing free agent signing this summer or in the near future.  Do not make a move for the sake of getting people to talk about the team.  We, as Celtics fans, have accepted the rebuilding process – as long as there is a plan.  Let’s not irrational emotions force change of plans either.


Offline KCattheStripe

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Calm it down there, Mellville. ;D


In all seriousness though, make this a Fan Post and not a forum topic. The forum font and lay out make it hard to read something this long and you put a ton of effort into it, I'd hate to see it skipped over just because the lay out is hard on the eyes!

TP!

Offline birdbrady

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Calm it down there, Mellville. ;D


In all seriousness though, make this a Fan Post and not a forum topic. The forum font and lay out make it hard to read something this long and you put a ton of effort into it, I'd hate to see it skipped over just because the lay out is hard on the eyes!

TP!

Well I don't know how to do that.  Some who are in charge of the board?

Offline Rondo2287

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Rebuilding is possible, but it will take longer than all of us are happy with most likely.
CB Draft LA Lakers: Lamarcus Aldridge, Carmelo Anthony,Jrue Holiday, Wes Matthews  6.11, 7.16, 8.14, 8.15, 9.16, 11.5, 11.16

Offline PosImpos

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In your comments on "tanking" and rebuilding a contender, you conveniently gloss over the fact that this team was not in a position to make that game-changing trade for KG until they had the #5 pick in the draft, which they traded for Ray Allen.  Without that, as I'm sure you know, KG would not have accepted the trade to Boston.

You also fail to recognize the fact that when Ainge got here, he had the luxury of already having a franchise star -- Pierce -- to build around.  The only reason he had such a player on the roster is because the team was terrible for a long stretch in the 90's and drafted Pierce @ #10 (they were lucky he even dropped that far).

The more high picks you have, the greater the assets you have to work with in rebuilding.  Tanking for high picks isn't just about remaining bad until you hit the jackpot and get a certified superstar (though that's the main goal / hope).  

It's also about building up valuable assets drafted in the 4-10 range over a handful of years and parlaying those assets into a core that can go somewhere.  With that kind of core, then you can start to think about making a major trade or enticing a big time free agent.

The first step to rebuilding is laying the soil-bed of young talent from which a competitive team can be cultivated.  Trying to rebuild a team with mid to late first round picks is like trying to grow a bountiful crop in dry, rocky earth.


As Rondo2287 points out, even if you do everything right, rebuilding will probably still take a while.  That's just the reality in this league.  After being a contender for 4-5 years, the natural cycle of things in the NBA is for your team to go back to mediocrity for 5-10 years.  That's basically a given.  What we should all want to avoid at all costs is mortgaging the future to maintain a modicum of competitiveness in the short term.  

Trading picks and young players for proven vets when you don't already have a franchise superstar just so you can make your team more competitive for the playoffs in the present only serves to keep you in the sub-contender basement for even longer.  The same goes for shelling out large contracts to players who aren't real stars when you don't have one already.

Rebuilding the right way requires a commitment to patience, the development of youth, and the acquisition of valuable, long term assets.  It cannot be rushed.  The fans may not enjoy multiple seasons spent toiling away with unproven young players cutting their teeth against the elite of the league, but it ultimately is in their best interest.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2012, 12:16:28 PM by PosImpos »
Never forget the Champs of '08, or the gutsy warriors of '10.

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Offline Reyquila

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1. The window had officially closed by 2009; not just now.
2. How long will it take to win #18? Last time we started being this inconsequential, because we didnt trade any of our good old assets, it took us about 20 years to gain respect again. How long this time? Nobody knows. There are a bunch of very good young teams on the ball and it will probably take a bunch of years to get back on top.
 Why? It doesnt help that we have been extremely unlucky or unsavvy while drafting since we got Reggie Lewis and Rondo. We have fairly unatractive old but serviceable assets right now. The more we wait to trade them, the less value we get for them. Short and sour.
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Offline Inside-Out

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Sorry for skimming through the OP...

But the thing with the draft is that players usually take a couple of years.  Rookies are rookies and hit the rookie wall, followed by the sophomore slump.

But it's how almost all of the talent enters the league, and the advantage on keeping players is to the team that drafts them due to Bird rights and simple inertia (why move?), so the draft is a somewhat slower and less certain way to build/rebuild a team, first of all.

Second, young players make mistakes, and when everyone is making mistakes it's hard to figure out what's wrong, so a team of all-young players isn't good...need at least vet role players who can learn NBA rotations, etc.

So I would suggest as Plan A that the team look to trade away picks for known star-level entities if such a deal is available for a star player to pair with Rondo (and Pierce?).  If not, then Rondo's value is questionable.  He's not exactly growing into a consistently positive, calm, stabilizing veteran presence.

Offline birdbrady

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In your comments on "tanking" and rebuilding a contender, you conveniently gloss over the fact that this team was not in a position to make that game-changing trade for KG until they had the #5 pick in the draft, which they traded for Ray Allen.  Without that, as I'm sure you know, KG would not have accepted the trade to Boston.

The more high picks you have, the greater the assets you have to work with in rebuilding.  Tanking for high picks isn't just about remaining bad until you hit the jackpot and get a certified superstar (though that's the main goal / hope). 

Did I not already make that point here:
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The team really only had one high draft pick (#5 in 2007), and that was used to acquire Ray Allen (which was packaged with Delonte West, but also Wallly Szczerbaik’s near-max contract that was not an expiring.)

It was a key part of the deal, but it was also used to be packaged with Wally, who had a near-max contract at the time, that was NOT an expiring.  Seattle easily would've accepted, say, the 9th pick in the draft + immediate cap relief (trade exception) than the 5 pick and two years of Wally at near-max.  As long as we maintain flexibility, you can make moves like that.  Hell, the Cavs got the #1 pick in the draft last year because they were able to absorb Baron Davis' max contract.

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It's also about building up valuable assets drafted in the 4-10 range over a handful of years and parlaying those assets into a core that can go somewhere.

What champion over the last 10 years used that process?

Celtics? No.  Once again, their only high pick was #5 in 07.  If they had a full trade exception they could've traded to Seattle, they didn't even have to send a pick that high.

Lakers? No.

Spurs? Got Duncan at #1 15 years ago, they only tanked one season, and two in the last 30.

Pistons? God no.  Built a team on all low-level moves.

Mavericks? No.

Miami? One high pick (#5) 

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With that kind of core, then you can start to think about making a major trade

Except it's been proven you can make a major trade with an abundance of assets as long as you make the right moves.  

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or enticing a big time free agent.

The new trend is big time free agents are coming in package deals, and they aren't going to 'young teams on the rise.'  LeBron, Bosh and Wade all got together on Miami, and that was already a playoff team, and had Wade in place.  No game changing free agent goes to 'young up and coming teams.'  Usually those free agents are the bad ones (Boozer.)

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The first step to rebuilding is laying the soil-bed of young talent from which a competitive team can be cultivated.

Fancy words for "blow it up, start from scratch, and all you fans and season ticket holders, just suck it up."

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Trying to rebuild a team with mid to late first round picks is like trying to grow a bountiful crop in dry, rocky earth.

It's already been done.  Multiple times.  In the last ten years.  And once by this very Celtics team.

Offline Smokeeye123

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1. The window had officially closed by 2009; not just now.
2. How long will it take to win #18? Last time we started being this inconsequential, because we didnt trade any of our good old assets, it took us about 20 years to gain respect again. How long this time? Nobody knows. There are a bunch of very good young teams on the ball and it will probably take a bunch of years to get back on top.
 Why? It doesnt help that we have been extremely unlucky or unsavvy while drafting since we got Reggie Lewis and Rondo. We have fairly unatractive old but serviceable assets right now. The more we wait to trade them, the less value we get for them. Short and sour.

Really? Because I feel like we were 5 minutes or a Kendrick Perkins away from banner 18 in 2010.

Offline birdbrady

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1. The window had officially closed by 2009; not just now.

So the window was closed when the team was minutes away from the championship in 2010??? What???? And then when they were the best team in the East with a few weeks to go in the season last year? I don't know why I will respond to the rest of this post but I will.


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2. How long will it take to win #18? Last time we started being this inconsequential, because we didnt trade any of our good old assets, it took us about 20 years to gain respect again.

They missed on one trade: McHale for Schrempf and Perkins.  You just were not trading Bird, and that package on the table was absolute crap (Chuck Person was a negative player on a team), Parish also did not have much value.  The team didn't win for 20 years not because they didn't trade those guys it was because they couldn't draft to save their lives from 89-02.  There were plenty of oppurtunities for the front office to improve the teams in good drafts and they blew it all.

Quote
How long this time? Nobody knows. There are a bunch of very good young teams on the ball and it will probably take a bunch of years to get back on top.
 Why? It doesnt help that we have been extremely unlucky or unsavvy while drafting since we got Reggie Lewis and Rondo. We have fairly unatractive old but serviceable assets right now. The more we wait to trade them, the less value we get for them. Short and sour.

You can't mesh ML Carr and David Gavitt moves with Danny Ainge moves.  Forget 1989-2002.  Those years hold no relevance.  Ainge is the guy in charge and he's been here since 2003.

Offline birdbrady

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As Rondo2287 points out, even if you do everything right, rebuilding will probably still take a while.  That's just the reality in this league.  After being a contender for 4-5 years, the natural cycle of things in the NBA is for your team to go back to mediocrity for 5-10 years.  That's basically a given.  What we should all want to avoid at all costs is mortgaging the future to maintain a modicum of competitiveness in the short term.  

Trading picks and young players for proven vets when you don't already have a franchise superstar just so you can make your team more competitive for the playoffs in the present only serves to keep you in the sub-contender basement for even longer.  The same goes for shelling out large contracts to players who aren't real stars when you don't have one already.

Rebuilding the right way requires a commitment to patience, the development of youth, and the acquisition of valuable, long term assets.  It cannot be rushed.  The fans may not enjoy multiple seasons spent toiling away with unproven young players cutting their teeth against the elite of the league, but it ultimately is in their best interest.

So we should do what the Nets are doing right now? Absolutely sucking for 5+ years running, drafting high in the draft, and then packaging them for one superstar, continue to suck, and then hope to package for another superstar? And then, of course, if you can't make that happen, you have to start ALL over again?!  The Nets could absolutely screw themselves if they don't get Howard.

Boston fans would totally tune out the team if we did that.

Offline Inside-Out

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Did I not already make that point here:
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The team really only had one high draft pick (#5 in 2007), and that was used to acquire Ray Allen (which was packaged with Delonte West, but also Wallly Szczerbaik’s near-max contract that was not an expiring.)


Not entirely true.  

We had a lottery pick (the Brandon Roy year) that was traded on draft day with LaFrenz's deal to improve the cap hell situation...

which was created by Danny trading for him instead of simply letting Antoine's deal expire and getting the assets in a sign-and-trade.  Ainge jumped the gun and screwed us for a few seasons there by the gamble on the injured LaFrenz that didn't work out.

Who knew.

But this situation and the lesson from it is why my money says Danny will most likely let these old timers simply retire rather than making a deal for more pieces/picks.

Offline PosImpos

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Quote
It's also about building up valuable assets drafted in the 4-10 range over a handful of years and parlaying those assets into a core that can go somewhere.

What champion over the last 10 years used that process?


Mavs -- Dirk, a franchise star drafted high (would go even higher today with better overseas scouting)

Lakers -- recent titles aided by Bynum, a high pick; earlier titles fueled by poaching Shaq from Orlando, which the Celtics can't hope to emulate

Heat -- drafted Wade, their franchise star, high. without Wade in place they wouldn't have gotten LeBron and Bosh to come to Miami.

Pistons -- the one team in the last 40 years to win a title without a franchise superstar.  good luck replicating that.

Quote from: birdbrady

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With that kind of core, then you can start to think about making a major trade

Except it's been proven you can make a major trade with an abundance of assets as long as you make the right moves.

In recent seasons, we've seen multiple trades for stars that involved players drafted high in the lottery.

e.g. Favors #3 for D-Will, Knicks package highlighted by Gallinari #6 for Melo, Gordon #7 + T-Wolves pick (anticipated high lottery pick) for Chris Paul.

Quote from: birdbrady
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or enticing a big time free agent.

The new trend is big time free agents are coming in package deals, and they aren't going to 'young teams on the rise.'  LeBron, Bosh and Wade all got together on Miami, and that was already a playoff team, and had Wade in place.  No game changing free agent goes to 'young up and coming teams.'  Usually those free agents are the bad ones (Boozer.)

Having young stars in place is what gets big name free agents to come, though.  That has been well established over the last few years.  You forgot to mention Amare joining the Knicks.

Quote from: birdbrady
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The first step to rebuilding is laying the soil-bed of young talent from which a competitive team can be cultivated.

Fancy words for "blow it up, start from scratch, and all you fans and season ticket holders, just suck it up."

Absolutely.  If you want to run your team just to keep the fans happy from year to year, don't pretend that you have any interest in winning a championship.  Fans who are really dedicated to the team, and care most about seeing it climb back to the ranks of the true elite, will stay on board.  The rest will jump off the bandwagon and follow the Red Sox and Bruins until the C's become contenders again, anyway.

Quote from: birdbrady
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Trying to rebuild a team with mid to late first round picks is like trying to grow a bountiful crop in dry, rocky earth.


It's already been done.  Multiple times.  In the last ten years.  And once by this very Celtics team.

This Celtics team was built using a #5 pick, a bunch of solid prospects highlighted by a #15 pick who turned into a much better player than expected, and a #10 pick who became a Hall of Fame franchise superstar.

That's not really "rebuilding with mid to late first round picks."  That's like trying to build a championship contender with the Rondos, Zach Randolphs, Darren Collisons, Kevin Martins, and Monta Ellis's of the league.  It just doesn't happen.  You have to pick high to go high in the NBA.
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Offline LarryForThree

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Well done post. Very thorough and analytical!

On page 56, paragraph 12 of your post, I especially liked how you referenced the importance of the Celtics signing Ramon Rivas for a full season towards the end of the 1988 Olympic Games that were held in Seoul.

Your twelve points signifying how this opened the door for more NBA stars coming out of Puerto Rico to really want to play for an organization like the C's was exceptional. Citing many quotes from Bill Cosby, who like Ramon Rivas graduated from Temple, was quite heart warming and compelling.



However, I had one major problem with your post. On pages 112-133, I had a hard time agreeing with your notion that the Celtics had a great success of "tanking" games in order to draft BYU players in the first round. Despite pages 119-123, I didn't think Greg Kite's eight career starts for the Celtics were effective and worthwhile enough to support your hypothesis.

Offline PosImpos

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As Rondo2287 points out, even if you do everything right, rebuilding will probably still take a while.  That's just the reality in this league.  After being a contender for 4-5 years, the natural cycle of things in the NBA is for your team to go back to mediocrity for 5-10 years.  That's basically a given.  What we should all want to avoid at all costs is mortgaging the future to maintain a modicum of competitiveness in the short term. 

Trading picks and young players for proven vets when you don't already have a franchise superstar just so you can make your team more competitive for the playoffs in the present only serves to keep you in the sub-contender basement for even longer.  The same goes for shelling out large contracts to players who aren't real stars when you don't have one already.

Rebuilding the right way requires a commitment to patience, the development of youth, and the acquisition of valuable, long term assets.  It cannot be rushed.  The fans may not enjoy multiple seasons spent toiling away with unproven young players cutting their teeth against the elite of the league, but it ultimately is in their best interest.

So we should do what the Nets are doing right now? Absolutely sucking for 5+ years running, drafting high in the draft, and then packaging them for one superstar, continue to suck, and then hope to package for another superstar? And then, of course, if you can't make that happen, you have to start ALL over again?!  The Nets could absolutely screw themselves if they don't get Howard.

Boston fans would totally tune out the team if we did that.

How did you get from what I wrote that we should follow the Nets strategy?  What they've done is the opposite of what I'm talking about.  So impatient and desperate to get good right now that they've sacrificed their future, all for the sake of gambling on D-Will's desire to stay and Howard's desire to join him.  It could work out great for them, but more likely than not it will end in disaster.  Not a good plan at all.
Never forget the Champs of '08, or the gutsy warriors of '10.

"I know you all wanna win, but you gotta do it TOGETHER!"
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