Woj on 'EEI: If Cs trade, Pierce most likely one to go:Rondo only for star

[relja]

Trading PP would ruin the team.. We wouldn't be worse in terms of player quality, but the chemistry will be ruined.

The only condition for trading PP is a deal where we rip someone off.

[Celtics4ever]

Chi would definitely benefit from PP.  It would block LeBron too how tempting....

[jarufu]

Media gurus have been saying for years now that the C's have to get something for the Big Three before they walk.  However, what they've failed to do are the following things:

1) Actually propose realistic trades

2) Take into account that cap space is also something that the Big Three can provide value to this team with.  

The problem with all members of the Big Three is that they don't appeal to any team that's not a contender, or close to it.  So at least 20 teams have no interest in them.  

That leaves MAYBE 10 teams.  And the problem is, most of those teams have the following problems:

1) They don't have much in the way of young talent.

2) They won't part with any of their core for our Big Three.

3) Both of the above.  

Pierce is the one who might actually nab us something of value because he likely has a few good years left and has seen his game drop off the least of the Big Three.  I really think that most of the teams out there really view Ray and KG as guys they can really only rely on for this season.  

Overall, I wouldn't be surprised if nothing happened.  While it'd be nice to see the C's get the next piece of the puzzle, I really think there's a good chance that teams are only going to offer us role players and late first round picks.  And if that's the case, we're better off just holding onto these guys.  Because remember, unless our trade partner is substantially under the cap, we're going to have to take back as much salary as we give up.  And the last thing we need to do in a rebuilding era is have 10, 16, or 23 million dollars tied up in role players who likely won't be around when the next banner is raised.  

This. exactly.

TP

Not entirely.  It depends how risky and creative Ainge wants to be... and what kind of little birdies he is listening to.

Example: If he has reason to believe leading up to the trade deadline that Howard and Deron are staying put and NOT signing extensions... the goal should be to try to sign them both.

Currently the Celtics have 25 mil in cap room.  That's enough to get one, but not both.  If you traded Pierce for expiring contracts + late 1st rounder, the expiring contracts become more important than the draft pick... it would give us something like 38 mil in cap space and enough to not only offer Deron and Dwight a package deal, but you could trade Rondo for a complimentary piece and possibly have enough left over to give Bass and Jeff Green contracts (or bring back Ray and KG on the cheap)

Really depends... It would have to be a big picture trade.

I almost think that Ainge would have to have some pictures of a GM in compromising situations to get something that doesnt lead to several years of mediocrity tho . . .

To that point... if we do nothing, we are leading to several years of mediocrity anyways.   Pierce only has a few years left, Rondo is what he is... we aren't a contender this year and no miracle is going to turn us into a contender next year.   I guess the pipe dream is keeping Pierce and signing Dwight in the offseason, but even if we were able to sign Dwight, we'd have no money left to offer KG, Ray, Bass or Green...  WE'd have Rondo, Dwight and a couple years of quality Pierce. Not sure why Dwight would go for that.

SO if mediocrity is the worst-case scenario of taking a chance... and mediocrity is the likely scenario of standing pat (unless another Jeremy Lin comes out of nowhere)... I say take a chance.

[dang]ed if ye do etc . . .

I'd go with rolling the dice too, if they're the only options . .

[rondohondo]

Media gurus have been saying for years now that the C's have to get something for the Big Three before they walk.  However, what they've failed to do are the following things:

1) Actually propose realistic trades

2) Take into account that cap space is also something that the Big Three can provide value to this team with.  

The problem with all members of the Big Three is that they don't appeal to any team that's not a contender, or close to it.  So at least 20 teams have no interest in them.  

That leaves MAYBE 10 teams.  And the problem is, most of those teams have the following problems:

1) They don't have much in the way of young talent.

2) They won't part with any of their core for our Big Three.

3) Both of the above.  

Pierce is the one who might actually nab us something of value because he likely has a few good years left and has seen his game drop off the least of the Big Three.  I really think that most of the teams out there really view Ray and KG as guys they can really only rely on for this season.  

Overall, I wouldn't be surprised if nothing happened.  While it'd be nice to see the C's get the next piece of the puzzle, I really think there's a good chance that teams are only going to offer us role players and late first round picks.  And if that's the case, we're better off just holding onto these guys.  Because remember, unless our trade partner is substantially under the cap, we're going to have to take back as much salary as we give up.  And the last thing we need to do in a rebuilding era is have 10, 16, or 23 million dollars tied up in role players who likely won't be around when the next banner is raised.  

This. exactly.

TP

Not entirely.  It depends how risky and creative Ainge wants to be... and what kind of little birdies he is listening to.

Example: If he has reason to believe leading up to the trade deadline that Howard and Deron are staying put and NOT signing extensions... the goal should be to try to sign them both.

Currently the Celtics have 25 mil in cap room.  That's enough to get one, but not both.  If you traded Pierce for expiring contracts + late 1st rounder, the expiring contracts become more important than the draft pick... it would give us something like 38 mil in cap space and enough to not only offer Deron and Dwight a package deal, but you could trade Rondo for a complimentary piece and possibly have enough left over to give Bass and Jeff Green contracts (or bring back Ray and KG on the cheap)

Really depends... It would have to be a big picture trade.

I almost think that Ainge would have to have some pictures of a GM in compromising situations to get something that doesnt lead to several years of mediocrity tho . . .

To that point... if we do nothing, we are leading to several years of mediocrity anyways.   Pierce only has a few years left, Rondo is what he is... we aren't a contender this year and no miracle is going to turn us into a contender next year.   I guess the pipe dream is keeping Pierce and signing Dwight in the offseason, but even if we were able to sign Dwight, we'd have no money left to offer KG, Ray, Bass or Green...  WE'd have Rondo, Dwight and a couple years of quality Pierce. Not sure why Dwight would go for that.

SO if mediocrity is the worst-case scenario of taking a chance... and mediocrity is the likely scenario of standing pat (unless another Jeremy Lin comes out of nowhere)... I say take a chance.

completely agree

[PosImpos]

It would break my heart to see Pierce in some other uniform and it would completely ruin what can only be categorized as nicely as possible as a disappointment of a season. However, if the rebuilding has to start now and Danny feels he will maximize his return in getting some quasi-contender to think Pierce is the piece to the puzzle to get them a ring, then so be it. But it had better be a heck of a deal that wipes years off the rebuilding process.

what if the main thing that it does is give us an extra 10-15 million in cap space to work with for the next two years?

[action781]

Love Pierce, but I wouldn't want to him to stick around for 2 years of rebuilding, not for my sake, but for his sake.

If I saw him traded to a contender, I'd feel similar to how Ray Bourque fans probably felt when he was traded to Colorado.  I know it's different because Pierce already has a ring, but I don't want Pierce to have to waste the tail end of his career on a crappy team when he could be playing meaningful basketball.

[chambers]

Two things in this thread made me laugh:
The notion that Kaman will be bought out and the Heat will get him- that's absolute garbage. So many more teams with so much more money to spend will go after him.

Secondly, there is ZERO chance of us getting Rudy Gay for Paul Pierce- Memphis would laugh at us suggesting this.

I don't want to trade Paul, but if we can move him to a contender like the Bulls, where he knows the coach and the defensive system, it makes it an easy transition and gives Pierce a chance to win one more.
Asik and Gibson are pretty average though- both great guys off the bench, but nothing more. I'd want both first rounders if they aren't throwing Deng in (and I doubt they really would throw him in).
That way we could move up the draft significantly with all those picks.

If the Pierce trade eventuates happens on/by March 15th the season will basically be forfeited and Danny Ainge might just be hanged by the same guys that wanted him strung for the (brilliant) Perkins move.

If we get Deng or two first round picks back it's probably worth it because Asik and Gibson would shore up our bench bigs for the next few years.

[greenpride32]

Pierce is most likely to go because he's the only player on our roster that other teams actually want.  

I would only like to see him go if he asks out.  I would hate to see him not have the chance to wear the green his entire career if that was his desire.  Couldn't really blame him if he said it's nearing the end of the line for me an I want another shot or two.  

[LarBrd33]

Chi would definitely benefit from PP.  It would block LeBron too how tempting....

Pierce makes 15.3 mil this year and 16.7 mil next year.  Indiana has seemed like the best fit for a trade simply because they have 14 mil in cap space... so Pierce for Paul George straight up works (and George only makes 2.6 mil next year.  Gives you another 14 mil in cap space to play with.

For Chicago it's a little trickier, i think.  I don't see the point in taking back Deng for the same reason I don't see the point in taking back Granger or Rudy Gay.  Pierce will remain better than them for the next couple years, but you'd be stuck paying these guys the same kind of money you'd be paying Pierce.  SO why bother?... you're cap situation remains the same.  I mean... MAYBE if you are absolutely convinced Deng/Granger or Rudy + Rondo would be enough to entice Dwight.  Otherwise, the goal should remain finding expiring contracts + young players and draft picks.  With Chicago you can do this:

Kyle Korver (5 mil) ... only 500k guaranteed next year so essentially an expiring contract.
CJ Watson (3.4 mil ) nothing guaranteed next year... basically an expiring contract
Ronnie Brewer (4.7 mil) nothing guaranteed next year so basically an expiring contract.

So that's your expiring contracts... Brewer, Korver and Watson are basically cap filler.  You can cut them all ... doesn't matter.  It frees up an addtional 16 mil in cap space next year so we'd have roughly 41 million in cap space to play with.  

In order to make it "worth it" to the Celtics as anything more than just a straight "Cap dump" you need some kind of value back.  So you obviously ask for Chicago's 1st rounder (which unfortunately will probably be pick #30... would rather have the first pick in the 2nd round than that pick) ... but the Bulls also own Bobcats' 2012 first-round pick (top 14 protected in 2012, top 12 protected in 2013, top 10 protected in 2014, top 8 protected in 2015, unprotected in 2016) (Tyrus Thomas trade 02-18-10) ...  

Trading Pierce for a LAAAATE 1st rounder and that bobcats pick might not be worth it... but again, it goes into how "big picture" Ainge is willing to go with this.  Maybe they get a 3rd team involved just so they can get another young asset out of it.  Youngest player on the bulls is 22 year old Jimmy Butler (picked 30th)... Doubt Boston has much interest in him, but throw him in for the heck of if it

[kozlodoev]

I don't see the point in taking back Deng for the same reason I don't see the point in taking back Granger or Rudy Gay.  Pierce will remain better than them for the next couple years, but you'd be stuck paying these guys the same kind of money you'd be paying Pierce.

I'm not even sure Pierce is better than any of those three as we speak. Maybe there's an argument there about Deng due to the injuries, but Gay and Granger will be significant upgrades over the course of the next three years.

[CoachBo]

I take nothing said about Rondo on the internet - and certainly not on RealGM - seriously. No one in the front office is going to admit they're trying to move Rondo again.

Any Pierce trade is nonsense. It's selling for pennies on the dollar.

Ainge needs to be on the phone to NJ, offering Rondo and Jermaine for DWill.

[LarBrd33]

Chi would definitely benefit from PP.  It would block LeBron too how tempting....

Pierce makes 15.3 mil this year and 16.7 mil next year.  Indiana has seemed like the best fit for a trade simply because they have 14 mil in cap space... so Pierce for Paul George straight up works (and George only makes 2.6 mil next year.  Gives you another 14 mil in cap space to play with.

For Chicago it's a little trickier, i think.  I don't see the point in taking back Deng for the same reason I don't see the point in taking back Granger or Rudy Gay.  Pierce will remain better than them for the next couple years, but you'd be stuck paying these guys the same kind of money you'd be paying Pierce.  SO why bother?... you're cap situation remains the same.  I mean... MAYBE if you are absolutely convinced Deng/Granger or Rudy + Rondo would be enough to entice Dwight.  Otherwise, the goal should remain finding expiring contracts + young players and draft picks.  With Chicago you can do this:

Kyle Korver (5 mil) ... only 500k guaranteed next year so essentially an expiring contract.
CJ Watson (3.4 mil ) nothing guaranteed next year... basically an expiring contract
Ronnie Brewer (4.7 mil) nothing guaranteed next year so basically an expiring contract.

So that's your expiring contracts... Brewer, Korver and Watson are basically cap filler.  You can cut them all ... doesn't matter.  It frees up an addtional 16 mil in cap space next year so we'd have roughly 41 million in cap space to play with. 

In order to make it "worth it" to the Celtics as anything more than just a straight "Cap dump" you need some kind of value back.  So you obviously ask for Chicago's 1st rounder (which unfortunately will probably be pick #30... would rather have the first pick in the 2nd round than that pick) ... but the Bulls also own Bobcats' 2012 first-round pick (top 14 protected in 2012, top 12 protected in 2013, top 10 protected in 2014, top 8 protected in 2015, unprotected in 2016) (Tyrus Thomas trade 02-18-10) ... 

Trading Pierce for a LAAAATE 1st rounder and that bobcats pick might not be worth it... but again, it goes into how "big picture" Ainge is willing to go with this.  Maybe they get a 3rd team involved just so they can get another young asset out of it.  Youngest player on the bulls is 22 year old Jimmy Butler (picked 30th)... Doubt Boston has much interest in him, but throw him in for the heck of if it

Looking at that Bulls trade "Big Picture" here's how it works out.

You'd have Rondo, Bradley and Johnson under contract.  That's it.

You'd have your own pick (#17), the Clippers pick (#25), the Bulls pick (#30) and a future 1st rounder from the Bobcats.  Also if you get this done quickly enough, we might be able to tank into the lottery and have a higher pick.   You might be able to package 2-3 of those picks (or include the Bobcats future protected pick) to move up in the draft.

With the 41 mil in cap space, you could bring in both Dwight AND Deron with sign-and-trades making the absolute MAX possible (Orlando and Jersey would take back trade exceptions)

Dwight gets 19.5 mil
Deron gets 17.8 mil

= 38 mil

With the money we give our draft picks that probably will use up the cap.  Jeff Green, Bass, KG and Ray walk unless you give them min contract deals.  Still... you core is Deron, Dwight and whatever we trade Rondo for (Josh Smith for example) + 3 2012 first rounders + that future Bobcats pick.  If KG and Ray come back for min contract deals (highly unlikely) the roster looks like this:

PG - Deron
SG - Ray
SF - Josh Smith (Rondo trade)
PF - KG
C - Dwight

Bench consists of 3 first rounders and whatever else we can scrounge up.

[SHAQATTACK]

I soon trade off my ol lady than the C's trade off Pierce... but   ..if it would brind in some awesome new talent, other than  !!Carlos BOOSER , ... for a couple decent guys that can "RUN" the court , rebound and not be hurt every other game.  

Yea ...it will hurt and kill me...but I'm for it in my heart ...casue thats whats best in the long run for our club.

[csfansince60s]

I soon trade off my ol lady than the C's trade off Pierce... but   ..if it would brind in some awesome new talent, other than  !!Carlos BOOSER , ... for a couple decent guys that can "RUN" the court , rebound and not be hurt every other game.  

Yea ...it will hurt and kill me...but I'm for it in my heart ...casue thats whats best in the long run for our club.

Say "goodbye" to the Mrs. 

[pearljammer10]

Seeing Pierce get traded would definitely make this season suck several times worse than it does now.

Exactly.

Also, isn't Ray Allen the more moveable piece here?

He may be the more movable piece, but if  you're going all-out for Howard, you want to let Allen and Garnett expire, and be able to show him a young core with Rondo and a very good wing player (think something along the lines of Granger/Deng).

like...uh...paul pierce?