Why are the Celtics sucking so badly right now?

[PosImpos]

They're old and the schedule is condensed, so their energy level is understandably inconsistent.

The lineups have been very inconsistent due to injuries.

The team generally relies on jumpshots, meaning they're vulnerable to hot streaks and cold streaks . . . especially in the 4th quarter, when the old legs get tired.

Being a poor rebounding team means it's easier for opponents to make comebacks, and there are fewer second chance points to make up for mistakes and misses.


Certainly doesn't help that the production from the center spot is generally very weak.  JO is almost entirely a one-way player now.

All of this stuff except for your last point is pretty much the explanation of the big 3 era. Weve always been old, bad rebounding, trouble offensively in the 4th, injuries etc.

Duo people really not remember  this? To take it one step further had this not been pretty identical to  those Celtics teams especially if you look at the team from Christmas on? Do people forget about that 2 month stretch where ray was in trade rumors and he played like one of the worst players in the NBA?

Its the same Celtics every year thats why I'm not jumping off a bridge because of this team. People say that the big 3 are older (everyones reasoning for us not having a chance) but our players are playing like they always have, or coach is coaching like he always has, and our defense is what its always been

You're right, most of those things have been true throughout the Big 3 era . . . except they've generally gotten worse each year as the Big 3 has gotten older.  The team still plays brilliantly at times when some or all of the Big 3 play like they once did almost every night.  But as they've gotten older, those brilliant games are fewer and farther between.  

They tend to come more consistently in the playoffs, but again, the team is less able to sustain those streaks of great games because they simply run out of gas.  Even when the supporting cast has been good, Danny has largely been unable to get a true alternative contributor -- somebody who can step in for one or more of the Big 3 and play brilliantly when they're off and help carry the team to victory.  

Sheed, Shaq, Jeff Green -- each of these players was able to do that to some degree at times, but not consistently, either because of age, injuries, or just not quite being up to the task.  Glen Davis was often slotted into that role, out of necessity . . . but he wasn't very efficient.  David West was supposed to be that guy this season, but that fell through -- and based on his play in Indiana this season, it probably wouldn't have worked anyway.  Brandon Bass is the closest we have to that now.

Rondo is the only one we can rely on to do that with any frequency, and he's notoriously inconsistent and also has trouble being a distributor and a scorer at the same time instead of one or the other.  

[bopna]

We are sucking and loosing because of Rondo, you want someone to blame, blame it on Rondo, Rondo is a bad, bad player right now, Rondo this, Rondo that. Rondo why did you shoot so much, we don't want you to shoot we want you to distribute the ball to our best basketball player on the planet that is PP and get the hell out of his way, PP is the only one licensed to shoot around these parts.

Rondo, why are you not making an effort to create for ray, don't you know he is the greatest three point shooter that ever lived, give to him and watch him stroke it. Rondo, please stop this nonsense that this is your team...anyone else want to concur. 

[PosImpos]

We are sucking and loosing because of Rondo, you want someone to blame, blame it on Rondo, Rondo is a bad, bad player right now, Rondo this, Rondo that. Rondo why did you shoot so much, we don't want you to shoot we want you to distribute the ball to our best basketball player on the planet that is PP and get the hell out of his way, PP is the only one licensed to shoot around these parts.

Rondo, why are you not making an effort to create for ray, don't you know he is the greatest three point shooter that ever lived, give to him and watch him stroke it. Rondo, please stop this nonsense that this is your team...anyone else want to concur. 

[KGs Knee]

First of all, I don't necesaarily think the Celtics are "sucking" right now.  To me, they are playing inconsistently.  Sometimes good, sometimes bad.  Compaired to past levels of success, sure, I guess it would be "sucking", but this team isn't those teams anymore.

I think we have an indentity crisis on offense right now.  The team is trying to find a balance between being Rondo-centric, and Big 3-centric.  It's obvious Rondo needs to be more of a scorer for this team to win, but we still need contributions from the Big 3 as well.

I can't possibly lay the blame for last night's game on Rondo.  He shot 55% from the field and had 35 points.  That is a darn good game.  I will say though, watching the game, I kept thinking to myself "This isn't going to work".  Rondo was scoring at will at times, but it did seem to be a little at the expense of Paul and Ray.  These guys don't create too many shots for themselves these days, Rondo has to.

Now, I can't quantify whether or not either Paul or Ray's struggles last night were due to their own poor performances, or, Rondo not getting them the ball enough.  But moving forward, I do think a better balance needs to be found.  I don't think a PG taking 27 shots, regardless of how efficient those shots may have been, is a good idea.  It creates a situation where the other scorers on the team never get a chance to develope a rythm.

Maybe the answer really is, Paul and Ray just can't keep up with Rondo's pace, so it's thier fault.  Even if that is the answer, what would the solution be?  Trade both of them?  That isn't a good idea at all.  There is no way we would get anything back of equal value for either.  Nor would we be likely get anything back that would be better than just letting KG and Ray expire at the end of the season.

Hopefully KG returning, and improving our defense, will make things better.  If last nights game proved anything, it showed that KG is still a defensive difference maker, and that his defense is our best hope for success.  We just need to somehow find a balance between the Rondo-centric offense and Rondo-facilitator offense.

[ManUp]

Great 2k team  .

Talent wise they have everything they need.

[BballTim]

Rondo is the only one we can rely on to do that with any frequency, and he's notoriously inconsistent and also has trouble being a distributor and a scorer at the same time instead of one or the other.  

  Where was this complaint when on Sunday when he went for 32 with 15 assists? Do you have proof that he has more trouble being a scorer and distributor at the same time than other point guards?

[PosImpos]

Rondo is the only one we can rely on to do that with any frequency, and he's notoriously inconsistent and also has trouble being a distributor and a scorer at the same time instead of one or the other. 

  Where was this complaint when on Sunday when he went for 32 with 15 assists? Do you have proof that he has more trouble being a scorer and distributor at the same time than other point guards?

I'll admit he has game where has is able to do everything.  I've never said Rondo doesn't have truly brilliant all around games.  They don't come around all that often, though.

There's a greater body of evidence, I think, that Rondo tends to either score -- as he did to start this season, when he was scoring 20-25 points a game but getting single digit assists -- or he tends to distribute -- as he did for long stretches last season when he was scoring 5-10 pts a game while racking up 12-20 assists.

Irrespective of that, what I'd add on to that point is that even when Rondo plays really well, he can't do it all by himself.  If Rondo plays great, and the Big 3 are off, the team generally loses.  Danny hasn't been able to find that consistent alternate contributor to be the #1 or #2 offensive option next to Rondo when the Big 3 are not playing well. 

Understandably so -- such players aren't easy to acquire, particularly for a team over the salary cap without any high draft picks.  But that's probably the sort of contributor the team needs to maintain a consistent high level of play now that the Big 3 are so old.

[Chris]

The C's held their own against the Lakers (who played well in that game, and were a tough matchup up front), beat the Bulls, and fell for two classic trap games. 

Honestly, that is pretty par for the course for a team like the C's.  It might end up biting them in the butt, but they are focussed on cruising into the playoffs, and they will always take off games here and there...particulately the veterans like Pierce and Ray.

It is not a good thing, and in the compressed season with a killer late season run, it could end up fatal to their playoff chances.  But I think that is all that is going on here. 

Last night was not a sign that this team has lost anything, all it showed is that they have not changed the attitude they have had for the last 3 or so years, and that many of the other veteran teams in the league have as well. 

But, those other veteran teams you cite seem to be able to win more games than the Celtics if they are, as you say, mainly cruising to the playoffs. Look at San Antonio. Look at the Lakers, who might have the worst bench in the NBA. Look at Miami, also a veteran team. This explanation does not fly anymore. This team is done and is not a real contender for the championship. If Danny can find some good deals, he should do them this year. If not, let it play out, and let the demolition begin this offseason.

The C's started off the season terribly, as they were out of shape, and took a while to integrate nearly half the rotation into a new system.

However, they are 6-4 in their last 10.  That is the same as the Lakers and OKC, better than Denver, Portland, Philly, Indy and Atlanta.  Just one game worse than the Clippers, Dallas, Orlando and Chicago.

Everyone is overreacting to a short stretch of games here.

Now, by no means are the C's a favorite to win it all this year, but just because they have been eratic does not mean they can't make a run in the playoffs.

[KGs Knee]

Rondo is the only one we can rely on to do that with any frequency, and he's notoriously inconsistent and also has trouble being a distributor and a scorer at the same time instead of one or the other. 

  Where was this complaint when on Sunday when he went for 32 with 15 assists? Do you have proof that he has more trouble being a scorer and distributor at the same time than other point guards?

I'll admit he has game where has is able to do everything.  I've never said Rondo doesn't have truly brilliant all around games.  They don't come around all that often, though.

There's a greater body of evidence, I think, that Rondo tends to either score -- as he did to start this season, when he was scoring 20-25 points a game but getting single digit assists -- or he tends to distribute -- as he did for long stretches last season when he was scoring 5-10 pts a game while racking up 12-20 assists.

Irrespective of that, what I'd add on to that point is that even when Rondo plays really well, he can't do it all by himself.  If Rondo plays great, and the Big 3 are off, the team generally loses.  Danny hasn't been able to find that consistent alternate contributor to be the #1 or #2 offensive option next to Rondo when the Big 3 are not playing well. 

Understandably so -- such players aren't easy to acquire, particularly for a team over the salary cap without any high draft picks.  But that's probably the sort of contributor the team needs to maintain a consistent high level of play now that the Big 3 are so old.

I think part of the problem is that this is somewhat new territory for Rondo, and the team as a whole.  For the vast majority of Rondo's time on the team his role has been to be the ditributer, get the Big 3 the ball in their spots.  His scoring was gravy.

Now that it has become evident that the Big 3 need someone else to be the focal point of the offense, it's become a learning experience of sorts.  Many a great players have had a hard time finding the balance between being a scorer, taking over the game themselves, and being a facilitator, getting their teammates involved.  This is no easy task.

Look how long it took MJ, the greatest player ever, to learn this skill.

[BballTim]

Rondo is the only one we can rely on to do that with any frequency, and he's notoriously inconsistent and also has trouble being a distributor and a scorer at the same time instead of one or the other. 

  Where was this complaint when on Sunday when he went for 32 with 15 assists? Do you have proof that he has more trouble being a scorer and distributor at the same time than other point guards?

I'll admit he has game where has is able to do everything.  I've never said Rondo doesn't have truly brilliant all around games.  They don't come around all that often, though.

There's a greater body of evidence, I think, that Rondo tends to either score -- as he did to start this season, when he was scoring 20-25 points a game but getting single digit assists -- or he tends to distribute -- as he did for long stretches last season when he was scoring 5-10 pts a game while racking up 12-20 assists.

  I don't know how many early season games you watched. First of all, he did get double digits in assists in the first two games. Secondly, I don't know how people could watch the team miss open jumpers and layups after Rondo fed them the ball and decide that the problem was Rondo's distribution. (on second thought, I guess I do). Really, though, I'm guessing you said that without any real idea about whether it's true or not.

Irrespective of that, what I'd add on to that point is that even when Rondo plays really well, he can't do it all by himself.  If Rondo plays great, and the Big 3 are off, the team generally loses.  Danny hasn't been able to find that consistent alternate contributor to be the #1 or #2 offensive option next to Rondo when the Big 3 are not playing well. 

Understandably so -- such players aren't easy to acquire, particularly for a team over the salary cap without any high draft picks.  But that's probably the sort of contributor the team needs to maintain a consistent high level of play now that the Big 3 are so old.

  The only way to do it would be to replace them. You can't be spending $45M or so on three players, have Rondo and also have another player good enough to pick up the slack when those three aren't getting it done.

[PosImpos]

Rondo is the only one we can rely on to do that with any frequency, and he's notoriously inconsistent and also has trouble being a distributor and a scorer at the same time instead of one or the other. 

  Where was this complaint when on Sunday when he went for 32 with 15 assists? Do you have proof that he has more trouble being a scorer and distributor at the same time than other point guards?

I'll admit he has game where has is able to do everything.  I've never said Rondo doesn't have truly brilliant all around games.  They don't come around all that often, though.

There's a greater body of evidence, I think, that Rondo tends to either score -- as he did to start this season, when he was scoring 20-25 points a game but getting single digit assists -- or he tends to distribute -- as he did for long stretches last season when he was scoring 5-10 pts a game while racking up 12-20 assists.

Irrespective of that, what I'd add on to that point is that even when Rondo plays really well, he can't do it all by himself.  If Rondo plays great, and the Big 3 are off, the team generally loses.  Danny hasn't been able to find that consistent alternate contributor to be the #1 or #2 offensive option next to Rondo when the Big 3 are not playing well. 

Understandably so -- such players aren't easy to acquire, particularly for a team over the salary cap without any high draft picks.  But that's probably the sort of contributor the team needs to maintain a consistent high level of play now that the Big 3 are so old.

I think part of the problem is that this is somewhat new territory for Rondo, and the team as a whole.  For the vast majority of Rondo's time on the team his role has been to be the ditributer, get the Big 3 the ball in their spots.  His scoring was gravy.

Now that it has become evident that the Big 3 need someone else to be the focal point of the offense, it's become a learning experience of sorts.  Many a great players have had a hard time finding the balance between being a scorer, taking over the game themselves, and being a facilitator, getting their teammates involved.  This is no easy task.

Look how long it took MJ, the greatest player ever, to learn this skill.

What you're getting at, I think, is that -- beyond Rondo being unused to the lead scorer role -- this team is not and never has been built to rely on Rondo as the #1 scorer.  That sounds right to me.

[PosImpos]

  The only way to do it would be to replace them. You can't be spending $45M or so on three players, have Rondo and also have another player good enough to pick up the slack when those three aren't getting it done.

Well, in my previous post I detailed Danny's recent efforts to try to bring in that kind of player.  His efforts have largely failed, though, because as we seem to agree, bringing in that kind of player while keeping the core in place is exceedingly difficult.

[BballTim]

  The only way to do it would be to replace them. You can't be spending $45M or so on three players, have Rondo and also have another player good enough to pick up the slack when those three aren't getting it done.

Well, in my previous post I detailed Danny's recent efforts to try to bring in that kind of player.  His efforts have largely failed, though, because as we seem to agree, bringing in that kind of player while keeping the core in place is exceedingly difficult.

  One game is one game, and minor injuries like Garnett's happen. But my point is that if the big three combined make a weak contribution on a regular basis then they aren't really part of a strong core.

[KGs Knee]

Rondo is the only one we can rely on to do that with any frequency, and he's notoriously inconsistent and also has trouble being a distributor and a scorer at the same time instead of one or the other. 

  Where was this complaint when on Sunday when he went for 32 with 15 assists? Do you have proof that he has more trouble being a scorer and distributor at the same time than other point guards?

I'll admit he has game where has is able to do everything.  I've never said Rondo doesn't have truly brilliant all around games.  They don't come around all that often, though.

There's a greater body of evidence, I think, that Rondo tends to either score -- as he did to start this season, when he was scoring 20-25 points a game but getting single digit assists -- or he tends to distribute -- as he did for long stretches last season when he was scoring 5-10 pts a game while racking up 12-20 assists.

Irrespective of that, what I'd add on to that point is that even when Rondo plays really well, he can't do it all by himself.  If Rondo plays great, and the Big 3 are off, the team generally loses.  Danny hasn't been able to find that consistent alternate contributor to be the #1 or #2 offensive option next to Rondo when the Big 3 are not playing well. 

Understandably so -- such players aren't easy to acquire, particularly for a team over the salary cap without any high draft picks.  But that's probably the sort of contributor the team needs to maintain a consistent high level of play now that the Big 3 are so old.

I think part of the problem is that this is somewhat new territory for Rondo, and the team as a whole.  For the vast majority of Rondo's time on the team his role has been to be the ditributer, get the Big 3 the ball in their spots.  His scoring was gravy.

Now that it has become evident that the Big 3 need someone else to be the focal point of the offense, it's become a learning experience of sorts.  Many a great players have had a hard time finding the balance between being a scorer, taking over the game themselves, and being a facilitator, getting their teammates involved.  This is no easy task.

Look how long it took MJ, the greatest player ever, to learn this skill.

What you're getting at, I think, is that -- beyond Rondo being unused to the lead scorer role -- this team is not and never has been built to rely on Rondo as the #1 scorer.  That sounds right to me.

This was pretty much exactly my point.

I'll add though, I don't know if it isn't possible.  It might very well be within the realm of Rondo's talents to be the lead dog on offense, and still be a distributer.  It's going to take time though.  Also, it would  require the othe parts (Big 3), to almost change their games as well.

It may, in the end, just be the better (safer) route, to just hope that the tried and true method of having Rondo be mainly the distributer is good enough.

[PosImpos]

  The only way to do it would be to replace them. You can't be spending $45M or so on three players, have Rondo and also have another player good enough to pick up the slack when those three aren't getting it done.

Well, in my previous post I detailed Danny's recent efforts to try to bring in that kind of player.  His efforts have largely failed, though, because as we seem to agree, bringing in that kind of player while keeping the core in place is exceedingly difficult.

  One game is one game, and minor injuries like Garnett's happen. But my point is that if the big three combined make a weak contribution on a regular basis then they aren't really part of a strong core.

Indeed, and our core fluctuates very frequently between strong and unremarkable.