Phoenix fans take on Rondo+JO for Nash+Gortat...

[BballTim]

What do they seriously think they'll get for Nash at age 38?

Here is your problem.  You are thinking about this as Nash for Rondo.  Nash is close to a throw-in in that deal.  Gortat has become one of the best centers in the league, and is also one of the biggest bargains in the league.  He is the holdup, and they are right to ask for the moon for him.

Agreed.  The deal proposed in the original thread would have been a fair package for both teams at the start of the season, but since then, Rondo has had an up and down season while Gortat has been a top 10 center in the league.  

Of course, a big part of that is likely the Steve Nash effect -- which is the same reason Amare hasn't been nearly as impressive since joining the Knicks.  Still, talented 7 footers are worth a lot more than talented point guards in this league.

  Amare was fairly impressive until the Knicks traded for Melo.

[BballTim]

. . . and people think I'm ridiculous when I say that people outside Boston don't think Rondo is worth as much in a trade as most of the fans here do.

  Most of the claims are about Rondo's trade value to GMs, not other fans. It should be a fairly simple equation though. If his trade value is lower than his value to the team, don't trade him.

Well, it's fair to extrapolate, I think, from the whole CP3 business that the Hornets valued Eric Gordon and Stephen Curry as the centerpieces of a trade package over Rondo.

  We know that the Hornets valued Gordon, Kaman (et al) and an unprotected draft pick from a team that's averaged under 20 wins a season over the last 4 years over whatever Ainge offered, and we know they had discussions about Curry, who makes about $20M less than Rondo over the next 3 years. Anything beyond that's also extrapolation, right?


 

[PosImpos]

What do they seriously think they'll get for Nash at age 38?

Here is your problem.  You are thinking about this as Nash for Rondo.  Nash is close to a throw-in in that deal.  Gortat has become one of the best centers in the league, and is also one of the biggest bargains in the league.  He is the holdup, and they are right to ask for the moon for him.

Agreed.  The deal proposed in the original thread would have been a fair package for both teams at the start of the season, but since then, Rondo has had an up and down season while Gortat has been a top 10 center in the league. 

Of course, a big part of that is likely the Steve Nash effect -- which is the same reason Amare hasn't been nearly as impressive since joining the Knicks.  Still, talented 7 footers are worth a lot more than talented point guards in this league.

  Amare was fairly impressive until the Knicks traded for Melo.

Surely.

Still, not as impressive as he was playing alongside Nash.

[PosImpos]

. . . and people think I'm ridiculous when I say that people outside Boston don't think Rondo is worth as much in a trade as most of the fans here do.

  Most of the claims are about Rondo's trade value to GMs, not other fans. It should be a fairly simple equation though. If his trade value is lower than his value to the team, don't trade him.

Well, it's fair to extrapolate, I think, from the whole CP3 business that the Hornets valued Eric Gordon and Stephen Curry as the centerpieces of a trade package over Rondo.

  We know that the Hornets valued Gordon, Kaman (et al) and an unprotected draft pick from a team that's averaged under 20 wins a season over the last 4 years over whatever Ainge offered, and we know they had discussions about Curry, who makes about $20M less than Rondo over the next 3 years. Anything beyond that's also extrapolation, right?


 

Extrapolation, yes.  But that's why this is something that's arguable.  I'm arguing that it's fair to extrapolate something about Rondo's relative trade value based on those reports.  You're free to argue otherwise.

[Chris]

. . . and people think I'm ridiculous when I say that people outside Boston don't think Rondo is worth as much in a trade as most of the fans here do.

  Most of the claims are about Rondo's trade value to GMs, not other fans. It should be a fairly simple equation though. If his trade value is lower than his value to the team, don't trade him.

Well, it's fair to extrapolate, I think, from the whole CP3 business that the Hornets valued Eric Gordon and Stephen Curry as the centerpieces of a trade package over Rondo.

  We know that the Hornets valued Gordon, Kaman (et al) and an unprotected draft pick from a team that's averaged under 20 wins a season over the last 4 years over whatever Ainge offered, and we know they had discussions about Curry, who makes about $20M less than Rondo over the next 3 years. Anything beyond that's also extrapolation, right?


 

Actually, we don't even know that much.  What we (think) we know is that the Hornets valued Martin/Scola/Odom/Dragic over Rondo and Green.  

By the time the Clippers offer entered the picture, the C's were basically out of the bidding, because Green was off the table.  

[BballTim]

. . . and people think I'm ridiculous when I say that people outside Boston don't think Rondo is worth as much in a trade as most of the fans here do.

  Most of the claims are about Rondo's trade value to GMs, not other fans. It should be a fairly simple equation though. If his trade value is lower than his value to the team, don't trade him.

Well, it's fair to extrapolate, I think, from the whole CP3 business that the Hornets valued Eric Gordon and Stephen Curry as the centerpieces of a trade package over Rondo.

  We know that the Hornets valued Gordon, Kaman (et al) and an unprotected draft pick from a team that's averaged under 20 wins a season over the last 4 years over whatever Ainge offered, and we know they had discussions about Curry, who makes about $20M less than Rondo over the next 3 years. Anything beyond that's also extrapolation, right?


 

Extrapolation, yes.  But that's why this is something that's arguable.  I'm arguing that it's fair to extrapolate something about Rondo's relative trade value based on those reports.  You're free to argue otherwise.

  You're free to extrapolate whatever you want from rumors, you're even free to call them credible. I agree that it's arguable.

[Chris]

What do they seriously think they'll get for Nash at age 38?

Here is your problem.  You are thinking about this as Nash for Rondo.  Nash is close to a throw-in in that deal.  Gortat has become one of the best centers in the league, and is also one of the biggest bargains in the league.  He is the holdup, and they are right to ask for the moon for him.

Agreed.  The deal proposed in the original thread would have been a fair package for both teams at the start of the season, but since then, Rondo has had an up and down season while Gortat has been a top 10 center in the league.  

Of course, a big part of that is likely the Steve Nash effect -- which is the same reason Amare hasn't been nearly as impressive since joining the Knicks.  Still, talented 7 footers are worth a lot more than talented point guards in this league.

  Amare was fairly impressive until the Knicks traded for Melo.

I would put that another way.  Amare was impressive until the Knicks traded away Felton.  Amare is a pick and roll big man, and without a PG who can run the pick and roll, he is not very good.

[PosImpos]

. . . and people think I'm ridiculous when I say that people outside Boston don't think Rondo is worth as much in a trade as most of the fans here do.

  Most of the claims are about Rondo's trade value to GMs, not other fans. It should be a fairly simple equation though. If his trade value is lower than his value to the team, don't trade him.

Well, it's fair to extrapolate, I think, from the whole CP3 business that the Hornets valued Eric Gordon and Stephen Curry as the centerpieces of a trade package over Rondo.

  We know that the Hornets valued Gordon, Kaman (et al) and an unprotected draft pick from a team that's averaged under 20 wins a season over the last 4 years over whatever Ainge offered, and we know they had discussions about Curry, who makes about $20M less than Rondo over the next 3 years. Anything beyond that's also extrapolation, right?


  

Actually, we don't even know that much.  What we (think) we know is that the Hornets valued Martin/Scola/Odom/Dragic over Rondo and Green.  

By the time the Clippers offer entered the picture, the C's were basically out of the bidding, because Green was off the table.  

Yes, but there was extensive reporting up until the deal that got veto'd which suggested the 3 main offers on the table were centered on Gordon, Curry, and Rondo -- and the Hornets were primarily interested in the first two.  

The Hornets supposedly came very, very close to accepting the Rondo deal (so close that physicals were scheduled) before going with the Lakers / Rockets deal, but only after the Warriors had backed out and the Clippers had killed trade talks because the Hornets were asking for too much.

Danny reportedly tried to get 3rd teams involved to get the Hornets something other than Rondo, which is where the Pacers came in -- but the Pacers weren't willing to give up any really valuable players, so they weren't much help.

In any case, it's notable, too, I think, that the Hornets (or Dell Demps, at least) chose to go with the Lakers / Rockets package over what the Celtics had to offer.  A handful of 30ish sub-All-Stars and a young backup point guard was deemed more valuable than our All-Star 25 year old passing phenom, a 1st round pick from the Clippers, and Jeff Green (who was still considered healthy at the time).

[BballTim]

What do they seriously think they'll get for Nash at age 38?

Here is your problem.  You are thinking about this as Nash for Rondo.  Nash is close to a throw-in in that deal.  Gortat has become one of the best centers in the league, and is also one of the biggest bargains in the league.  He is the holdup, and they are right to ask for the moon for him.

Agreed.  The deal proposed in the original thread would have been a fair package for both teams at the start of the season, but since then, Rondo has had an up and down season while Gortat has been a top 10 center in the league.  

Of course, a big part of that is likely the Steve Nash effect -- which is the same reason Amare hasn't been nearly as impressive since joining the Knicks.  Still, talented 7 footers are worth a lot more than talented point guards in this league.

  Amare was fairly impressive until the Knicks traded for Melo.

I would put that another way.  Amare was impressive until the Knicks traded away Felton.  Amare is a pick and roll big man, and without a PG who can run the pick and roll, he is not very good.

  I don't think that Melo dominating the ball in the halfcourt really helped Amare, but I'd agree with your statement.

[PosImpos]

Oh, and there's also the matter of the GM survey which was released a little over a month ago.

In that survey, Rondo was not voted into the top 5 in the "best passer" category.

He was noted for his toughness and his defense, however.  But I think most here would consider his passing his greatest strength, yet GMs around the league voted for Steve Nash, Ricky Rubio, and Chris Paul over Rondo.

[BballTim]

. . . and people think I'm ridiculous when I say that people outside Boston don't think Rondo is worth as much in a trade as most of the fans here do.

  Most of the claims are about Rondo's trade value to GMs, not other fans. It should be a fairly simple equation though. If his trade value is lower than his value to the team, don't trade him.

Well, it's fair to extrapolate, I think, from the whole CP3 business that the Hornets valued Eric Gordon and Stephen Curry as the centerpieces of a trade package over Rondo.

  We know that the Hornets valued Gordon, Kaman (et al) and an unprotected draft pick from a team that's averaged under 20 wins a season over the last 4 years over whatever Ainge offered, and we know they had discussions about Curry, who makes about $20M less than Rondo over the next 3 years. Anything beyond that's also extrapolation, right?


  

Actually, we don't even know that much.  What we (think) we know is that the Hornets valued Martin/Scola/Odom/Dragic over Rondo and Green.  

By the time the Clippers offer entered the picture, the C's were basically out of the bidding, because Green was off the table.  

Yes, but there was extensive reporting up until the deal that got veto'd which suggested the 3 main offers on the table were centered on Gordon, Curry, and Rondo -- and the Hornets were primarily interested in the first two. 

The Hornets supposedly came very, very close to accepting the Rondo deal (so close that physicals were scheduled) before going with the Lakers / Rockets deal, but only after the Warriors had backed out and the Clippers had killed trade talks because the Hornets were asking for too much.

Danny reportedly tried to get 3rd teams involved to get the Hornets something other than Rondo, which is where the Pacers came in -- but the Pacers weren't willing to give up any really valuable players, so they weren't much help.

  The Clippers gave the Hornets close to what they were reportedly asking for, in fact before the season started people were probably split on whether Gordon was more valuable than Minny's unprotected pick. They essentially got double the value of Gordon. I also heard a couple of different times that the Hornets not wanting Rondo wasn't really true.

[Greenbean]

What do they seriously think they'll get for Nash at age 38?

Here is your problem.  You are thinking about this as Nash for Rondo.  Nash is close to a throw-in in that deal.  Gortat has become one of the best centers in the league, and is also one of the biggest bargains in the league.  He is the holdup, and they are right to ask for the moon for him.

Agreed.  The deal proposed in the original thread would have been a fair package for both teams at the start of the season, but since then, Rondo has had an up and down season while Gortat has been a top 10 center in the league.  

Of course, a big part of that is likely the Steve Nash effect -- which is the same reason Amare hasn't been nearly as impressive since joining the Knicks.  Still, talented 7 footers are worth a lot more than talented point guards in this league.

  Amare was fairly impressive until the Knicks traded for Melo.

I would put that another way.  Amare was impressive until the Knicks traded away Felton.  Amare is a pick and roll big man, and without a PG who can run the pick and roll, he is not very good.

This is accurate. Ill be real interested to see how Lin and Amare play together.

[Greenbean]

. . . and people think I'm ridiculous when I say that people outside Boston don't think Rondo is worth as much in a trade as most of the fans here do.

  Most of the claims are about Rondo's trade value to GMs, not other fans. It should be a fairly simple equation though. If his trade value is lower than his value to the team, don't trade him.

Wow...TP bud.

I dont often agree with you about Rondo, but you are right on the money with this statement.

[BballTim]

Oh, and there's also the matter of the GM survey which was released a little over a month ago.

In that survey, Rondo was not voted into the top 5 in the "best passer" category.

He was noted for his toughness and his defense, however.  But I think most here would consider his passing his greatest strength, yet GMs around the league voted for Steve Nash, Ricky Rubio, and Chris Paul over Rondo.

  Almost all the votes went to two players in that vote. When you say "not in the top 5" that means a couple of players got 1 vote when he didn't. Beyond that, "best passer" is a fairly nebulous term. What exactly does it mean? What's the criteria? One definition might favor Rondo, another would favor CP3.

[Greenbean]

I have to say, I'm really torn on this one. (The JO, ROndo for Nash Gortat)

I have thought all along that we do not trade Rondo unless we get CP3 or someone of that caliber in return.

This trade as proposed might make us contenders for this year.

Obviously after this year, I would rather have Rondo, but squeezing one more title out of this group would be enticing.

At the end of the day, it wouldnt make use clear cut favorites so I probably wouldnt do it.