Rondo has to go, sorry...

[chambers]

I think Tommy Craggs of Deadspin was the one who said that people have a hard time dealing with "good" athletes.

Rondo isn't a great point guard. He's a good one. That doesn't make him poor and the root of all the Celtics problem. He's just not good enough to be the best player on a championship team. Heck, probably not even good enough to be the second best player. That doesn't make him a bad point guard or a not good one. He's a good player, nothing more, nothing less.

Rajon Rondo - who some people here have said is better than Chris Paul and Deron Williams (?!) - was not guarded by the other team last night. The Lakers specifically put Kobe on Rondo last night so that Kobe could conserve his energy. Think about that. An elite player is not guarded for an entire game so the opposing team's player can take the night off on defense. Goodness gracious.

Rondo had 14 points and 7 assists.
We lost by a single point in over time.
I don't understand where the 'didn't guard him the whole game' notion comes from. They sag off him sometimes, and then he penetrates and dishes the ball, or takes a mini floater like the one last night off the glass.
They particularly do it at the end of the game and suffocate our bigs.
I want everyone (if they can) to re watch the last 5-7 minutes when Rondo was in the game.
Ray Allen and Pierce were literally standing still for 10 seconds while Rondo waited for something to happen. When they didn't move and the clock got to 6 seconds Rondo decided to do it himself and penetrate, shoot.
He hit a floater, hit one jumpshot and missed 3 jump shots in that last 7 minutes.
All of those jump shots were with 10 or less seconds left on the shot clock.
Just watch an exhausted Ray and Pierce and JO and KG just stand around and hope that Rondo will do something.
The Lakers didn't have to do anything, we stood around and watched Rondo. In fact it got so bad that Doc called a time out, blasted them and ran a play for KG to get an open jumpshot out of the time out because they were not moving on offense.

This 'whole game of not defending the point guard' notion is so bogus.

It's not as easy as saying 'if the Lakers are going to sag and protect the paint with Kobe roaming, then may Doc should think about Pierce running the point forward, with Pietrus and Ray on the wings.' Now it's worth trying this, but I guarantee what will happen is that once we lose Rondo's penetration, and thus rely on outside shooting deep in the 4th quarter when our legs are tired, we could lose just as many, if not more games. These long 3 pointers give opponents a chance to grab long rebounds and punish us on a fast break- KG and JO have zero chance of rebounding under these conditions and they are forced to sprint back with the opposing team already in transition.
Against OKC and Miami we would get destroyed for every 3 point shot we missed. It would basically be , give the ball to Ray, Paul or Pietrus, take one three, hope it goes down and get the hell back on defense ASAP, not even worrying about offensive rebounding unless it fell right in our lap.
There is a lack of ball movement and the Celtics need to work out how to get Pierce and Ray and KG open for jump shots.
I don't care if Rondo doesn't have anyone on him, they should still get good looks- like they do the rest of the game.
Tired legs and pressure are crushing us in late games and Rondo is the scapegoat.

[European NBA fan]

I think Tommy Craggs of Deadspin was the one who said that people have a hard time dealing with "good" athletes.

Rondo isn't a great point guard. He's a good one. That doesn't make him poor and the root of all the Celtics problem. He's just not good enough to be the best player on a championship team. Heck, probably not even good enough to be the second best player. That doesn't make him a bad point guard or a not good one. He's a good player, nothing more, nothing less.

Rajon Rondo - who some people here have said is better than Chris Paul and Deron Williams (?!) - was not guarded by the other team last night. The Lakers specifically put Kobe on Rondo last night so that Kobe could conserve his energy. Think about that. An elite player is not guarded for an entire game so the opposing team's player can take the night off on defense. Goodness gracious.

Rondo had 14 points and 7 assists.
We lost by a single point in over time.
I don't understand where the 'didn't guard him the whole game' notion comes from. They sag off him sometimes, and then he penetrates and dishes the ball, or takes a mini floater like the one last night off the glass.
They particularly do it at the end of the game and suffocate our bigs.
I want everyone (if they can) to re watch the last 5-7 minutes when Rondo was in the game.
Ray Allen and Pierce were literally standing still for 10 seconds while Rondo waited for something to happen. When they didn't move and the clock got to 6 seconds Rondo decided to do it himself and penetrate, shoot.
He hit a floater, hit one jumpshot and missed 3 jump shots in that last 7 minutes.
All of those jump shots were with 10 or less seconds left on the shot clock.
Just watch an exhausted Ray and Pierce and JO and KG just stand around and hope that Rondo will do something.
The Lakers didn't have to do anything, we stood around and watched Rondo. In fact it got so bad that Doc called a time out, blasted them and ran a play for KG to get an open jumpshot out of the time out because they were not moving on offense.

This 'whole game of not defending the point guard' notion is so bogus.

It's not as easy as saying 'if the Lakers are going to sag and protect the paint with Kobe roaming, then may Doc should think about Pierce running the point forward, with Pietrus and Ray on the wings.' Now it's worth trying this, but I guarantee what will happen is that once we lose Rondo's penetration, and thus rely on outside shooting deep in the 4th quarter when our legs are tired, we could lose just as many, if not more games. These long 3 pointers give opponents a chance to grab long rebounds and punish us on a fast break- KG and JO have zero chance of rebounding under these conditions and they are forced to sprint back with the opposing team already in transition.
Against OKC and Miami we would get destroyed for every 3 point shot we missed. It would basically be , give the ball to Ray, Paul or Pietrus, take one three, hope it goes down and get the hell back on defense ASAP, not even worrying about offensive rebounding unless it fell right in our lap.
There is a lack of ball movement and the Celtics need to work out how to get Pierce and Ray and KG open for jump shots.
I don't care if Rondo doesn't have anyone on him, they should still get good looks- like they do the rest of the game.
Tired legs and pressure are crushing us in late games and Rondo is the scapegoat.

Couldn't have said it better, TP for that. Will just add one thing: Some of Rondo's critics talk about Rondo being the centerpiece in the next generation Celtics. I don't think any of his supporters see him as our no. 1 guy for the future, only as a very good pg with one of the best value for money contracts in the league (which is not a rookie contract). And if a guy like Dwight Howard (or any other upcoming free agent) is smart, he recognizes that.

[Birdmanbr]

That's what I call overreacting...

You are talking about the same Rondo that was our PG in 2008 and since then has improved every year? Same Rondo that was our PG when we finished 1 KG knee away from winning another championship? Same Rondo that is 2nd in the NBA in assists?
So, we loose to the Lakers in the OT, when all our guys had good looks and could not buy a basket and we are going to blame Rondo, who, btw, is coming back from a WRIST injury???

Sorry, he deserves better support than this...

[action781]

 Maybe he's saying that the Lakers do guard Rondo, although Kobe gives him a bit of distance. At least in the sense that other players are generally guarded. It's true that Kobe plays some center field when Rondo's off the ball. It's equally true Rondo does the same thing on the other end of the court when opposing point guards don't have the ball.

Or maybe that we were a +6 with Rondo in the game, and a -7 in the 8 minutes he was on the bench.

I think BBallTim has done a great job illustrating a situation where plus/minus can be a really flawed stat.

And on your other point - I can't believe that someone is making a serious argument that Rondo takes a similar approach on defense that Kobe did last night. Rondo was not guarded. There's playing center field and than there's Kobe who would barely give Rondo a courtesy hand up.

Yeah, what Rondo does is different.  Rondo tries to sneak up on players not paying attention and steal the ball.  Rondo does not WANT an opponent to pass his man the ball b/c the player will score.  Rondo is trying to grab a steal before the player recognizes that Rondo has left his man.  On the contrary, Kobe's defense INVITES other players to pass Rondo the ball.  And Kobe just doesn't care, he's going to stay in front of Rondo by a few feet and let him take a shot if Rondo wants it.

[greenpride32]

Rondo had 14 points and 7 assists.
We lost by a single point in over time.
I don't understand where the 'didn't guard him the whole game' notion comes from. They sag off him sometimes, and then he penetrates and dishes the ball, or takes a mini floater like the one last night off the glass.

I don't care what his stats are; he is a liablity in crunch time.  Simmons sees it and Kerr said the same thing during the broadcast saying the C's are "playing 4 on 5 right now".  Our possesions were pathetic in the final 5-7 minutes; no good shots; all isolation basketball; dribble dribble dribble, pass last guy has the hot potato and has to force a bad shot.  We had another stretch of 3-4 minutes without a FG.

Reality is the C's have tried to trade the guy for 2 years and there are no takers.  Rondo does play with flair and style no question; but it's sad to see people mistake this for being a superior player.  If you know the game of basketball and play it style points don't count for any additonal points on the scoreboard.

I wouldn't necessarily say Rondo needs to go, but he CANNOT be carrying the ball up in the half court set in crunch time. The C's took this responsibility out of his hands in 2008 and 2009.  They need to go back to that plan.

[jdz101]

I am a huge rondo fan but even I will say that this year the offence has flowed much better without him there. 

When moore was on the floor with a mix of starters and second unit it was refreshing to see 5 guys on the floor that could shoot the rock from their chosen range. Even bradley was getting cheap slashing buckets.

[steve]

Rondo would be amazing on a "run and gun" team.  But honestly whens the last "run and gun" team to win the championship?  That type of team needs to have the perfect storm of players and coaching. 

We'd have to trade the big 3 for picks and draft for speed.  But I don't think Howard would buy into it, even though he'd be perfect for that style. 

Rondo is like King Hippo, once you learn his flaw, you should beat him every time.

Trade him or build him a "run and gun" team... those are your options, I'd go with the 1st one.     
   

[LarBrd33]

My ultimate dream scenario is trading Rondo for Steph Curry.  That would be amazing.  Absolutely no reason for the Warriors to ever do that, though. 

[Celtics4ever]

I don't care what his stats are; he is a liablity in crunch time.

And Bradley isn't?   A lot of guys here think Avery would play when Rondo leaves but fact is he is a worse shooter than Rondo.

At least Rajon rebounds something I can't say for our bigs.

[PosImpos]

wont be at all shocked if rondo is shipped out for various pieces before the first of next month.  its obvious now that what you see is what you get with rondo.  the only reason not to trade him is that with his performance this season it would amount to selling low.

[CelticG1]

I don't care what his stats are; he is a liablity in crunch time.

And Bradley isn't?   A lot of guys here think Avery would play when Rondo leaves but fact is he is a worse shooter than Rondo.

At least Rajon rebounds something I can't say for our bigs.

Actually I think you are wrong. Doc has mentioned that makes thos shots in practice just needs to get used to the game speed and get the confidence up.

He has never said something to that nature on Rondos.shot ever

[Eja117]

I have no faith whatsoever than Avery Bradley would do well against D Rose in the playoffs.  If we did some trade where we get a real live NBA pg in return that's one thing, but just trading him for a center is totally different

[CelticG1]

First post on the forums just wanted to jump into the Rondo discussion.

People have differing opinions on Bill Simmons but his thought on Rondo definitely summed up how some of us were feeling watching the game against LA last night.

"Rondo is averaging a 14-10-5, shooting 50 percent from the field and still giving us those one-of-a-kind Rondo highlights.

Am I slowly coming to the realization that I've been in deep denial about the Rondo era? Yeah, a little bit. Any smart team (like the Lakers last night) plays six feet off Rondo in tight games, daring him to shoot, paralyzing Boston's offense and leading to the dreaded "Clogged Toilet" play (Pierce ending up with the ball 25 feet from the hoop with seven seconds left trying to create something). It's almost like playing with a handicap. Screw that, it IS like playing with a handicap. It's also curious that the Celtics came alive defensively when Rondo missed eight games, mostly thanks to Avery Bradley, who flashed Tony Allen/Bruce Bowen-type potential as a perimeter defender (and that's not hyperbole).

  Bradley looked great vs Jameer Nelson. Has he looked like that against anyone else? And do you really give Bradley more credit for the defense than Garnett? If the difference was Bradley, do you think our defense has been getting worse since Rondo's playing again?

At the very least it says that Rondo isn't as important on defense as people seem to think. Basically bradleys first time seeing some minutes and he has no problem playing good d

  Yes, John Wall is still in a corner somewhere, shuddering at the way Bradley shut him down.

You know whats sad? Rondo is pretty mucch in Walls class right now. Rondo, wall, Parker, conley, and Jennings.

Paul, Williams, Westbrook, Rose, Curry, Irving and Rubio are alll valued ahead of him right now.

Rondo has a lot of work to do to get to that top 5pg level again. Its insane that people were debating who was better Rose or Rondo just a little over a year ago. Now I'm posting he can be a top 5 pg again. Sucks that evdry other pg has improved their shooting dramatically and Rondo has not

[hoarybat]

Jackie Macmullen told a story on Around the Horn yesterday.  Four of five years ago she went to interview Doc Rivers and Rondo and Austin Rivers were shooting baskets on the opposite end of the floor.  Rondo made 600 of 1000, Austin made 800 of 1000.  She tells Doc, hey it appears your 8th grade son is a better shooter than your starting PG.  She didn't give Doc's response.  That was a long time ago and Rondo still can't shoot, which means he never will.  He knows he can't shoot so he doesn't shoot the ball even when he should in the flow of the offense.  He also holds onto the ball longer than he should.  The Celtics offense is at its best when the ball is moving around the perimeter looking for the open man, Rondo doesn't facilitate that at all. 

I agree with a lot of what you say above. Rondo is subpar.  I am 50 years old and play horse/out and free throws with my sons and kids in the neighborhood.  I shoot 88% from the line during pickup games and shoot 70% from the line during horse/out with the "MJ one quick look at the hoop shot which he did in an NBA game) close my eyes and shoot the free throw in.  Rondo couldn't do what I do and I'm not in the NBA. This guy is a shadow of his 2008 self.  Any decent point guard in the NBA should be close to or around 80% from the line.  Rondo isn't even close.  He is good for assists as we know and an occasional layup but not much else. He could complement a younger fast break team with his passing but not the old/slow half court playing Celtics.  He is a consistently inconsistent player. I agree his teammates weren't very good either the last 2 games as well.  I actually think the bench has been better when they have had more playing time. Tonight once again a few times he blew by the first defender creating an open 12 footer down low, passed it up dished it way outside for a longggg jumper by his teammates who threw up a brick.  This guy can't shoot!  All good to great point guards in the league that get that close for a shot with space make the shot frequently or have the defense collapse on them so they can dish it off to a big man for an easy basket.  The word is out on Rondo.  You can let him penetrate but just not all the way to the backboard for his layup where he gets most of his few points.  This guy can score 20+ points in one game and 4-8 in the next 3.  He has little to offer this older team.  Trade him to a contender for a 1st round pick and let the younger guys develop. If I could trade him for the UN-drafted Lin who is playing so well for the Knicks with increased time, I would do so in a heartbeat.  Never happen since the latter's stock is rising and Rondo's has been falling for 3 years. Rondo's last hope is a sports psychiatrist.  I'm rather sad since I so wanted him to be an elite point guard.  CAN'T SHOOT - NUFF SAID.....

[bostonman1]

First post on the forums just wanted to jump into the Rondo discussion.

People have differing opinions on Bill Simmons but his thought on Rondo definitely summed up how some of us were feeling watching the game against LA last night.

"Rondo is averaging a 14-10-5, shooting 50 percent from the field and still giving us those one-of-a-kind Rondo highlights.

Am I slowly coming to the realization that I've been in deep denial about the Rondo era? Yeah, a little bit. Any smart team (like the Lakers last night) plays six feet off Rondo in tight games, daring him to shoot, paralyzing Boston's offense and leading to the dreaded "Clogged Toilet" play (Pierce ending up with the ball 25 feet from the hoop with seven seconds left trying to create something). It's almost like playing with a handicap. Screw that, it IS like playing with a handicap. It's also curious that the Celtics came alive defensively when Rondo missed eight games, mostly thanks to Avery Bradley, who flashed Tony Allen/Bruce Bowen-type potential as a perimeter defender (and that's not hyperbole).

  Bradley looked great vs Jameer Nelson. Has he looked like that against anyone else? And do you really give Bradley more credit for the defense than Garnett? If the difference was Bradley, do you think our defense has been getting worse since Rondo's playing again?

At the very least it says that Rondo isn't as important on defense as people seem to think. Basically bradleys first time seeing some minutes and he has no problem playing good d

  Yes, John Wall is still in a corner somewhere, shuddering at the way Bradley shut him down.

I was more focused on the offensive side.  Watching the offense bog down as LA backed off Rondo is tough, it really seems like the Celtics are a man down offensively.   Can't imagine too many teams would employ that same strategy in defending Rose, Paul, Nash, Dwill and other "elite" point guards...

  The offense is clearly better when Rondo plays.

Wouldn't want to use last night's crunch time and OT failures as an example of that.  Or how about tonight's game against the dreadful Raptors - Rondo played more minutes than any other Celtic 2-10 from the floor, 5 TO's, and the Celtics scored a horrific 74 points.