Rondo has to go, sorry...

[2dark]

If we play 4 on 5 in 4 qtr what should lakers say? They played most of the game 3 on 5 with fisher/blake/barnes/murphy/world insanity or whatever scrub you want to put in...
Its no excuse, I more mad at rondo when he gambles in def like he did few times in crucial moments last night (thank God fischer and blake couldn't hit open jumper all night long).

[BballTim]

If we play 4 on 5 in 4 qtr what should lakers say? They played most of the game 3 on 5 with fisher/blake/barnes/murphy/world insanity or whatever scrub you want to put in...
Its no excuse, I more mad at rondo when he gambles in def like he did few times in crucial moments last night (thank God fischer and blake couldn't hit open jumper all night long).

  He gambles some, but I'd say that generally helps the team a lot more than it hurts. But do you think that Doc tells Rondo that he wants him to stick to the man he's covering at all times and to refrain from roving sround and disrupting the opponent's offense?

[CelticG1]

Yep, definitely Rondo's fault that this team has no post presence, doesn't box out, and didn't get to the line...

Maybe it's not Rondo's fault, but if Rondo cannot pick up this flawed team and lead it to wins, then it's a given that he won't be able to do it with the significantly more flawed teams we're likely to have in the mere future.

Just because you're an excellent piece in a well-oiled machine doesn't mean you'll be an excellent fundamental building block.

Im so sick of people fixating on Rondo's jumpshot misses - no one makes 100% and hes shooting above league average on long twos...enough already.

.399 on jump shots is now somehow above league average?

We can fixate on something else, of course, like the turnovers or the matador defense, for example.

Basically the long and the sorry of it its Rondo, in his prime is, still not the best player on this team, and can't elevate his game to "star" level.

Hes a good player but I thought as each year went by and as the big three got older that Rondo would truly elevate his game and become more of the alpha dog leader of this team. He clearly has not. Its kinda sad that we are complaining about a 35 year old KG when we have a 25 year old supposed all star.

We wouldn't be complaining about Avery Bradley if he started and we loss because we dont expect much from him but we do with Rondo.

I honestly think that the people complaining about Rondo are upset because we think he can and should be better than he has been and the people that are defending him have already accepted the fact that he doesn't have that extra level of game in him and he is who he is

[Tgro]

I honestly think that the people complaining about Rondo are upset because we think he can and should be better than he has been and the people that are defending him have already accepted the fact that he doesn't have that extra level of game in him and he is who he is

I'm in the middle of this. I remember seeing him in the 2010 Playoffs and Finals and he was so good. He was energy personified. Picking the pockets of who he defended against and hitting the open man as a QB of the team. He showed so much promise then. He was taking the NBA by storm. But I also feel like that is where he peaked.

Since then his flaws just keep reappearing. He shows flashes of his greatness followed by crazy layups, careless passes, questionable defense and consistently missing free throws. Followed by actually being the guy slowing the pace down instead of speeding it up.

I actually feel like the Celtics have played better this year when moving fast and being unpredictable. When we get in sets, we look so much easier to defend.

I've also gotten to where I don't expect Rondo to improve on his flaws anymore and what we see is what we get. Now I wonder if its enough to win championships with him? In the past I felt like his good outweighed his bad, but with the team aging and other teams knowing how to defend Rondo, his upside has been diminishing. He also hasn't improved on his weaknesses or upped his game.

Rondo has always been viewed as the future we build around and I'm getting to where I don't want that to be the case. I feel like I've already seen the best of Rondo and anything we see now is just glimpses of it and reminders of what he could be but has never fully latched onto. Then again, as soon as I publicly say this, he'll go off for a triple double and single handidly win the game and look like a basketball god. The problem is, he gets me psyched about him and then fails me when I want to see him excel most. The thing he makes me feel is frustration because I know how good he could be or in my mind should be. I want Rondo to be a top 5 superstar and he keeps falling back into being just a good player but lacking at consistent greatness.  

[bostonman1]

First post on the forums just wanted to jump into the Rondo discussion.

People have differing opinions on Bill Simmons but his thought on Rondo definitely summed up how some of us were feeling watching the game against LA last night.

"Rondo is averaging a 14-10-5, shooting 50 percent from the field and still giving us those one-of-a-kind Rondo highlights.

Am I slowly coming to the realization that I've been in deep denial about the Rondo era? Yeah, a little bit. Any smart team (like the Lakers last night) plays six feet off Rondo in tight games, daring him to shoot, paralyzing Boston's offense and leading to the dreaded "Clogged Toilet" play (Pierce ending up with the ball 25 feet from the hoop with seven seconds left trying to create something). It's almost like playing with a handicap. Screw that, it IS like playing with a handicap. It's also curious that the Celtics came alive defensively when Rondo missed eight games, mostly thanks to Avery Bradley, who flashed Tony Allen/Bruce Bowen-type potential as a perimeter defender (and that's not hyperbole). For the first time, I find myself hoping they deal Rondo — for instance, maybe it could be a three-teamer with Pau Gasol and Keyon Dooling going to Houston; Luis Scola, Goran Dragic, Kyle Lowry and L.A.'s 2012 no. 1 going to Boston; and Rondo and Jermaine O'Neal going to the Lakers. He needs a change of scenery, and really, so might Celtics fans. I can't watch another 84-82 game with his guy playing five feet off him. I really can't. Enough already."

[BballTim]

First post on the forums just wanted to jump into the Rondo discussion.

People have differing opinions on Bill Simmons but his thought on Rondo definitely summed up how some of us were feeling watching the game against LA last night.

"Rondo is averaging a 14-10-5, shooting 50 percent from the field and still giving us those one-of-a-kind Rondo highlights.

Am I slowly coming to the realization that I've been in deep denial about the Rondo era? Yeah, a little bit. Any smart team (like the Lakers last night) plays six feet off Rondo in tight games, daring him to shoot, paralyzing Boston's offense and leading to the dreaded "Clogged Toilet" play (Pierce ending up with the ball 25 feet from the hoop with seven seconds left trying to create something). It's almost like playing with a handicap. Screw that, it IS like playing with a handicap. It's also curious that the Celtics came alive defensively when Rondo missed eight games, mostly thanks to Avery Bradley, who flashed Tony Allen/Bruce Bowen-type potential as a perimeter defender (and that's not hyperbole).

  Bradley looked great vs Jameer Nelson. Has he looked like that against anyone else? And do you really give Bradley more credit for the defense than Garnett? If the difference was Bradley, do you think our defense has been getting worse since Rondo's playing again?

[CelticG1]

First post on the forums just wanted to jump into the Rondo discussion.

People have differing opinions on Bill Simmons but his thought on Rondo definitely summed up how some of us were feeling watching the game against LA last night.

"Rondo is averaging a 14-10-5, shooting 50 percent from the field and still giving us those one-of-a-kind Rondo highlights.

Am I slowly coming to the realization that I've been in deep denial about the Rondo era? Yeah, a little bit. Any smart team (like the Lakers last night) plays six feet off Rondo in tight games, daring him to shoot, paralyzing Boston's offense and leading to the dreaded "Clogged Toilet" play (Pierce ending up with the ball 25 feet from the hoop with seven seconds left trying to create something). It's almost like playing with a handicap. Screw that, it IS like playing with a handicap. It's also curious that the Celtics came alive defensively when Rondo missed eight games, mostly thanks to Avery Bradley, who flashed Tony Allen/Bruce Bowen-type potential as a perimeter defender (and that's not hyperbole).

  Bradley looked great vs Jameer Nelson. Has he looked like that against anyone else? And do you really give Bradley more credit for the defense than Garnett? If the difference was Bradley, do you think our defense has been getting worse since Rondo's playing again?

At the very least it says that Rondo isn't as important on defense as people seem to think. Basically bradleys first time seeing some minutes and he has no problem playing good d

[BballTim]

First post on the forums just wanted to jump into the Rondo discussion.

People have differing opinions on Bill Simmons but his thought on Rondo definitely summed up how some of us were feeling watching the game against LA last night.

"Rondo is averaging a 14-10-5, shooting 50 percent from the field and still giving us those one-of-a-kind Rondo highlights.

Am I slowly coming to the realization that I've been in deep denial about the Rondo era? Yeah, a little bit. Any smart team (like the Lakers last night) plays six feet off Rondo in tight games, daring him to shoot, paralyzing Boston's offense and leading to the dreaded "Clogged Toilet" play (Pierce ending up with the ball 25 feet from the hoop with seven seconds left trying to create something). It's almost like playing with a handicap. Screw that, it IS like playing with a handicap. It's also curious that the Celtics came alive defensively when Rondo missed eight games, mostly thanks to Avery Bradley, who flashed Tony Allen/Bruce Bowen-type potential as a perimeter defender (and that's not hyperbole).

  Bradley looked great vs Jameer Nelson. Has he looked like that against anyone else? And do you really give Bradley more credit for the defense than Garnett? If the difference was Bradley, do you think our defense has been getting worse since Rondo's playing again?

At the very least it says that Rondo isn't as important on defense as people seem to think. Basically bradleys first time seeing some minutes and he has no problem playing good d

  Yes, John Wall is still in a corner somewhere, shuddering at the way Bradley shut him down.

[bostonman1]

First post on the forums just wanted to jump into the Rondo discussion.

People have differing opinions on Bill Simmons but his thought on Rondo definitely summed up how some of us were feeling watching the game against LA last night.

"Rondo is averaging a 14-10-5, shooting 50 percent from the field and still giving us those one-of-a-kind Rondo highlights.

Am I slowly coming to the realization that I've been in deep denial about the Rondo era? Yeah, a little bit. Any smart team (like the Lakers last night) plays six feet off Rondo in tight games, daring him to shoot, paralyzing Boston's offense and leading to the dreaded "Clogged Toilet" play (Pierce ending up with the ball 25 feet from the hoop with seven seconds left trying to create something). It's almost like playing with a handicap. Screw that, it IS like playing with a handicap. It's also curious that the Celtics came alive defensively when Rondo missed eight games, mostly thanks to Avery Bradley, who flashed Tony Allen/Bruce Bowen-type potential as a perimeter defender (and that's not hyperbole).

  Bradley looked great vs Jameer Nelson. Has he looked like that against anyone else? And do you really give Bradley more credit for the defense than Garnett? If the difference was Bradley, do you think our defense has been getting worse since Rondo's playing again?

At the very least it says that Rondo isn't as important on defense as people seem to think. Basically bradleys first time seeing some minutes and he has no problem playing good d

  Yes, John Wall is still in a corner somewhere, shuddering at the way Bradley shut him down.

I was more focused on the offensive side.  Watching the offense bog down as LA backed off Rondo is tough, it really seems like the Celtics are a man down offensively.   Can't imagine too many teams would employ that same strategy in defending Rose, Paul, Nash, Dwill and other "elite" point guards...

[Celtics18]

First post on the forums just wanted to jump into the Rondo discussion.

People have differing opinions on Bill Simmons but his thought on Rondo definitely summed up how some of us were feeling watching the game against LA last night.

"Rondo is averaging a 14-10-5, shooting 50 percent from the field and still giving us those one-of-a-kind Rondo highlights.

Am I slowly coming to the realization that I've been in deep denial about the Rondo era? Yeah, a little bit. Any smart team (like the Lakers last night) plays six feet off Rondo in tight games, daring him to shoot, paralyzing Boston's offense and leading to the dreaded "Clogged Toilet" play (Pierce ending up with the ball 25 feet from the hoop with seven seconds left trying to create something). It's almost like playing with a handicap. Screw that, it IS like playing with a handicap. It's also curious that the Celtics came alive defensively when Rondo missed eight games, mostly thanks to Avery Bradley, who flashed Tony Allen/Bruce Bowen-type potential as a perimeter defender (and that's not hyperbole).

  Bradley looked great vs Jameer Nelson. Has he looked like that against anyone else? And do you really give Bradley more credit for the defense than Garnett? If the difference was Bradley, do you think our defense has been getting worse since Rondo's playing again?

At the very least it says that Rondo isn't as important on defense as people seem to think. Basically bradleys first time seeing some minutes and he has no problem playing good d

Or it says that Bradley is an elite defender as well.  Unfortunately, his offense has a ways to go before he'll get consistent enough minutes to show what he can do defensively on a nightly basis.

However, the fact that Bradley is an excellent defender doesn't say that Rondo isn't.

[wiley]

people are overthinking when they say Rondo's the primary problem.

Do we have one of the better, or elite, PG's in the league?   Yes.
Do we currently have one of the better bigs situations, or elite bigs in the league?  No.

And the only reason Rondo doesn't have 3 or 4 titles instead of 1
is terrible luck with injuries to bigs.....


The problem with the bigs is not one player.  It's that we start not one
but two old, and or physically limited players.  Starting one would be fine, but
when you combine your old guys the physicality problem compounds itself and you
get low rebounding numbers and an inability to keep guys out of the paint.  We need
a young, tough center to play next to KG.  That's it.

The Celtics lack a big who combines size, youth, talent and toughness.
That, and not PG, is the problem.

[BballTim]

First post on the forums just wanted to jump into the Rondo discussion.

People have differing opinions on Bill Simmons but his thought on Rondo definitely summed up how some of us were feeling watching the game against LA last night.

"Rondo is averaging a 14-10-5, shooting 50 percent from the field and still giving us those one-of-a-kind Rondo highlights.

Am I slowly coming to the realization that I've been in deep denial about the Rondo era? Yeah, a little bit. Any smart team (like the Lakers last night) plays six feet off Rondo in tight games, daring him to shoot, paralyzing Boston's offense and leading to the dreaded "Clogged Toilet" play (Pierce ending up with the ball 25 feet from the hoop with seven seconds left trying to create something). It's almost like playing with a handicap. Screw that, it IS like playing with a handicap. It's also curious that the Celtics came alive defensively when Rondo missed eight games, mostly thanks to Avery Bradley, who flashed Tony Allen/Bruce Bowen-type potential as a perimeter defender (and that's not hyperbole).

  Bradley looked great vs Jameer Nelson. Has he looked like that against anyone else? And do you really give Bradley more credit for the defense than Garnett? If the difference was Bradley, do you think our defense has been getting worse since Rondo's playing again?

At the very least it says that Rondo isn't as important on defense as people seem to think. Basically bradleys first time seeing some minutes and he has no problem playing good d

  Yes, John Wall is still in a corner somewhere, shuddering at the way Bradley shut him down.

I was more focused on the offensive side.  Watching the offense bog down as LA backed off Rondo is tough, it really seems like the Celtics are a man down offensively.   Can't imagine too many teams would employ that same strategy in defending Rose, Paul, Nash, Dwill and other "elite" point guards...

  The offense is clearly better when Rondo plays.

[soap07]

I think Tommy Craggs of Deadspin was the one who said that people have a hard time dealing with "good" athletes.

Rondo isn't a great point guard. He's a good one. That doesn't make him poor and the root of all the Celtics problem. He's just not good enough to be the best player on a championship team. Heck, probably not even good enough to be the second best player. That doesn't make him a bad point guard or a not good one. He's a good player, nothing more, nothing less.

Rajon Rondo - who some people here have said is better than Chris Paul and Deron Williams (?!) - was not guarded by the other team last night. The Lakers specifically put Kobe on Rondo last night so that Kobe could conserve his energy. Think about that. An elite player is not guarded for an entire game so the opposing team's player can take the night off on defense. Goodness gracious.

[soap07]

 Maybe he's saying that the Lakers do guard Rondo, although Kobe gives him a bit of distance. At least in the sense that other players are generally guarded. It's true that Kobe plays some center field when Rondo's off the ball. It's equally true Rondo does the same thing on the other end of the court when opposing point guards don't have the ball.

Or maybe that we were a +6 with Rondo in the game, and a -7 in the 8 minutes he was on the bench.

I think BBallTim has done a great job illustrating a situation where plus/minus can be a really flawed stat.

And on your other point - I can't believe that someone is making a serious argument that Rondo takes a similar approach on defense that Kobe did last night. Rondo was not guarded. There's playing center field and than there's Kobe who would barely give Rondo a courtesy hand up.

[Celtics4ever]

John Wall is still in a corner somewhere, shuddering at the way Bradley shut him down.

What shutdown?  He had 27, 19 and 11 points against us.  That is averaging 15 PPG a game against us to what Bradley's two?  He also is averaging 8 APG against us.  Sorry but we only shut him down one game.   The other games he did well against us.

How did Bradley do against Irving?  Not well.   Nelson is not a top flight talent.  Against top talent and Lin he looked like an average defender.