E'Twaun vs Avery

[BudweiserCeltic]

If the Celtics had been able to develop a similar supporting cast for their core group -- which is a good deal better than the Spurs' core group -- I think there's a good chance they'd have had more success in the post-season the last couple of years.

You're not serious with this statement are you?

They were six good minutes and on the wrong side of every whistle away from winning it one year and a horrible mid-season trade and Rondo having his shoulder dislocated by Wade away from posing a serious threat last year.

They didn't go farther because they didn't develop their young bench in those years? You're joking, right?

They didn't go further because they didn't have a stronger supporting cast.  They were less able to deal with injuries, didn't have home court advantage when they could have had it (if they had done better in the regular season), and rode the Big 3 much more throughout every game, meaning they were tired late.

There's no guarantee that having a better supporting cast would have made the ultimate difference in any of those years . . . but I think it's silly to suggest it wouldn't have made a very significant difference. 

Poor depth -- and in recent years a noted lack of youth -- has been an enormous weakness of this team throughout the Big 3 era, with the exception, perhaps, of the '08 team.


Now, certainly a large part of that falls on Ainge for not doing a better job drafting and signing guys.  But the organization as a whole, from the top all the way down to Doc, has been average at best at acquiring, developing, and integrating young talent during the Big 3 era.  As a whole they've been too content to rely on guys who were already on the roster and any veteran castoff willing to come here for cheap to chase a ring.

This is patently false.

2011 bench during playoffs
Nenad Krstic
Glen Davis
Jeff Green
Delonte West
Carlos Arroyo
Sasha Pavlovic
Troy Murphy
Von Wafer
Shaquille O'Neal
Avery Bradley

There was one...only one...young player on the roster to be developed last year and whenever he got some time on the floor he was GOD awful. We did not lose due to lack of depth last year we lost because our best player who was expected to make a huge difference against a team with a horrid group of PGs got injured.

2010 bench during the playoffs
Rasheed Wallace
Glen Davis
Tony Allen
Nate Robinson
Marquis Daniels
Sheldon Williams
Michael Finley
Brian Scalabrine

The only young players we had that year were garbage and we traded away for Nate Robinson. Neither Lester Hudson nor JR Giddens are in the league anymore and Bill Walker hangs on by a thread in NY because the Knicks invested every penny they had into three players and have to keep minimum level scrubs on the bench. The Knicks currently have what might be the worst bench in the league.

So clearly there were no young players available to develop that year either and the only reason we lost was not due to a lack of depth, the team was deep, it was due to injury.

I agree with the overall assessment. My only major gripe with Doc and the young guys was in the 2009 run which I thought we would be better served by giving Walker or Giddens more run during the regular season. Not from a developmental standpoint, but because he ran our stars to the ground in search of home advantage needlessly. So it's really not a youth thing, but simply not making better use of the bench he was given regardless of how flawed it was. And honestly, I've always thought Scal was a very poor SF for us, though was pretty good as a stretch 4 or 5 during that span.

[PosImpos]

This is patently false.

2011 bench during playoffs
Nenad Krstic
Glen Davis
Jeff Green
Delonte West
Carlos Arroyo
Sasha Pavlovic
Troy Murphy
Von Wafer
Shaquille O'Neal
Avery Bradley

There was one...only one...young player on the roster to be developed last year and whenever he got some time on the floor he was GOD awful. We did not lose due to lack of depth last year we lost because our best player who was expected to make a huge difference against a team with a horrid group of PGs got injured.


2010 bench during the playoffs
Rasheed Wallace
Glen Davis
Tony Allen
Nate Robinson
Marquis Daniels
Sheldon Williams
Michael Finley
Brian Scalabrine

The only young players we had that year were garbage and we traded away for Nate Robinson. Neither Lester Hudson nor JR Giddens are in the league anymore and Bill Walker hangs on by a thread in NY because the Knicks invested every penny they had into three players and have to keep minimum level scrubs on the bench. The Knicks currently have what might be the worst bench in the league.

So clearly there were no young players available to develop that year either and the only reason we lost was not due to a lack of depth, the team was deep, it was due to injury.

There was a lack of young players on the rosters at the end of both years in large part because we had traded them away for a pittance after failing to development them much.

Also, there was a clear philosophy in the organization throughout the last few years favoring acquiring more established (though injury prone and on the decline) veterans over trading for more picks, holding onto younger role players, or signing younger, less established players.

That philosophy affected the depth of the bench most obviously, but it also likely affected the latitude the team had in pursuing mid-season moves (since most of the bench players had little value except to other contenders).  Now, this falls on Danny as well as Doc, but I can't help but think that part of that organizational philosophy was a result of the fact that Danny knew Doc wouldn't trust or play younger players.

You say we lost in 2010 because of Perk's injury and questionable officiating; I disagree.  After all, they were leading by a good margin after 3 quarters without Perk.  Rather, I think the team simply ran out of gas.  The fact that there wasn't established big man depth to make up for Perkins' absence compounded that.

The mid-season moves during the Big 3 era have almost exclusively revolved around obtaining depth at PG or on the wing -- this despite the fact that Danny has used our draft picks during this time on mostly point guards and wings.  I can't but help see that as a poor reflection on the team's ability to both identify young talent (whether in the draft, undrafted free agents, D-league, whatever) as well as developing that talent.


I think this off-season Danny finally recognized the need to prioritize younger, healthier, more athletic players over older, more experienced veterans -- and he said as much.  As a result, this team has more depth in relatively young (under 30) players than they've had in a long time.  Part of that has come as a result of necessity (injuries, condensed schedule).  I wish, however, that both Danny and Doc had recognized the need for this shift sooner.

[nickagneta]

Or Pos, we got rid of the young talent because that talent sucked not because it wasn't developed.

Does the fact that Hudson, Pruitt, and Giddens are not in the league, that Erden and Harangody are only seeing severely limited time on a poor Cleveland squad during garbage time blowouts, and that Walker is only getting time in NY because that bench is about the worst in the league not prove of that?

Everything else is conjecture on your part about Danny's thinking and about what he sees as Doc's preferences. Championships are made on the backs of superstars and veterans, pure and simple.

[PosImpos]

Or Pos, we got rid of the young talent because that talent sucked not because it wasn't developed.

Does the fact that Hudson, Pruitt, and Giddens are not in the league, that Erden and Harangody are only seeing severely limited time on a poor Cleveland squad during garbage time blowouts, and that Walker is only getting time in NY because that bench is about the worst in the league not prove of that?

Everything else is conjecture on your part about Danny's thinking and about what he sees as Doc's preferences. Championships are made on the backs of superstars and veterans, pure and simple.

I feel that I have already addressed everything youve said here, which means we're just rehashing at this point.  Agree to disagree.

Edit: one note -- i think its a bit of a fallacy that if you trade young guys to a bad team and they get buried on the bench it means theyre terrible and thry couldnt have contributed on an older team.  The younger, worse team often has many more young players to develop, and the main objectives of the rebuilding team is to give minutes mostly to guys with the potential to be future starters, not so much role players with a limited ceiling.