E'Twaun vs Avery

[mmmmm]

He DEFENDS the opposing point guard because at his size thats the only player he can realistically be expected to guard,

Disagree with this statement.  Bradley defends the PG because he is the best on-ball defender on the floor.  He is definitely capable of defending SGs.

I totally agree that offensively, he is really an extra SG and will never be a true PG on offense.

His offense will come.  He was a very good offensive player in H.S., college and the NBADL.   He's just still really, really young.  People forget that he is still the youngest player on the Celtics.

His shot is slowly coming around as he gets more and more used to NBA game speed.  And for the first time these last couple of games his teammates were actually starting to look to him on the baseline cut play.

I like both Moore and Bradley a lot, but Bradley has extremely high upside due to his amazing athleticism.

[MBunge]

Many people like to talk about Doc not playing young guys, but there is a lack of examples of these same guys succeeding elsewhere.

We've got two examples staring us in the face right now in Bradley and Moore.  If Rondo and Dooling aren't both injured for an extended period at the same time, Moore never gets off the bench and Bradley plays single digit minutes at best.  Now, neither Moore or Bradley are better than Rondo, but I think you can make an argument that both would be better than Dooling or trying to run the offense through Marquis.

Mike

[guava_wrench]

He DEFENDS the opposing point guard because at his size thats the only player he can realistically be expected to guard,

Disagree with this statement.  Bradley defends the PG because he is the best on-ball defender on the floor.  He is definitely capable of defending SGs.

I totally agree that offensively, he is really an extra SG and will never be a true PG on offense.

His offense will come.  He was a very good offensive player in H.S., college and the NBADL.   He's just still really, really young.  People forget that he is still the youngest player on the Celtics.

His shot is slowly coming around as he gets more and more used to NBA game speed.  And for the first time these last couple of games his teammates were actually starting to look to him on the baseline cut play.

I like both Moore and Bradley a lot, but Bradley has extremely high upside due to his amazing athleticism.

Imagine Bradley if this was a video game and you could press a button to switch to the defender closer to the ball all the time.

I also don't think size is a big deal if he is on guys who like to work off the dribble.

The baseline cuts are slowly becoming a staple of his offense and he is looking more and more like TA except for the fast break charges that TA was so good at (and TA's lob dunks on those cuts).

[Celtics4ever]

 Bradley defends the PG because he is the best on-ball defender on the floor.  He is definitely capable of defending SGs.

He can't guard Irving.  Fast guys who can dribble can expose that he is not as lockdown as we thought.  Granted he is still good but he has a limitation to who he can guard.

They obviously have done the baseline stuff because it works for him.  He isn't a jump shooter at this point so why not play to his strengths instead of his weaknesses.

[MBunge]

 Bradley defends the PG because he is the best on-ball defender on the floor.  He is definitely capable of defending SGs.

He can't guard Irving.  

Nobody can guard guys like that.  When that kind of player is attacking the basket, the only thing you can do is double him when he gets across halfcourt to take the ball out of his hands.

Mike

[guava_wrench]

Many people like to talk about Doc not playing young guys, but there is a lack of examples of these same guys succeeding elsewhere.

We've got two examples staring us in the face right now in Bradley and Moore.  If Rondo and Dooling aren't both injured for an extended period at the same time, Moore never gets off the bench and Bradley plays single digit minutes at best.  Now, neither Moore or Bradley are better than Rondo, but I think you can make an argument that both would be better than Dooling or trying to run the offense through Marquis.

Mike

They are both playing. Bradley was force fed minutes for much of the early season despite playing horrible. Look up all the old threads of people complaining about Bradley getting minutes. Bradley has played in every game except one.

Moore is also playing. He has played decent minutes in 11 straight games, including a bunch of games early on in the streak where he was just plain bad. Moore is shooting 37% for the season, so let's not exaggerate his effectiveness. There are plenty of famines intermingled with the feasts. Sure he shot 4-4 from 3 one game - but Allan Ray had his moments too. Even Bradley is shooting better than Moore at 40%, albeit without the 3's.

When the veterans like Pierce and KG aren't even in a rhythm yet, it is not yet time to go through the growing pains with all of your young guys at the same time. I don't think that throwing all of your new guys learning a new system on the floor at the same time at the start of a season with negligible training camp and little time for practices is the best way to get a team in rhythm.

Once our 2 young guards are comfortable in our system and running it well, that will probably make it easier to put JJJ out there.

All the complaining about young guys not playing is overblown. What did we miss out on by playing House or even Marbury more minutes than Pruitt or Lester Hudson?

I also fail to see how Moore is a clear improvement over Dooling. That is very debatable. Dooling is shooting much better than Moore while shooting seems to be what we most look for from Moore.

Personally, I prefer watching Moore. As a fan, I am more entertained by new guys and younger guys because I can form more unreasonable wishful-thinking expectations about what kind of player they will be. But I can't fault the team for playing Dooling over Moore.

[looseball]

Imagine that, you give young players time, despite their weaknesses / mistakes, and they develop rapidly.

Who knew?

Who knew you'ld get a TP for that observation?

[guava_wrench]

Imagine that, you give young players time, despite their weaknesses / mistakes, and they develop rapidly.

Who knew?

Like Pruitt.

Counter examples are not lacking.

[PosImpos]

Imagine that, you give young players time, despite their weaknesses / mistakes, and they develop rapidly.

Who knew?

Like Pruitt.

Counter examples are not lacking.

But unless you give the players time, you'll never know whether they're a Pruitt or a Bradley.


It's hard to judge young players by how they do after they leave the Celtics, because usually by that point they've spent the first couple years of their careers sitting on the bench, so their most formative time in the league has spent being treated like scrubs.  Even so, you can look at Bill Walker as a player who's been reasonably productive on the Knicks when given the chance to play.

[Fafnir]

Imagine that, you give young players time, despite their weaknesses / mistakes, and they develop rapidly.

Who knew?

Like Pruitt.

Counter examples are not lacking.

But unless you give the players time, you'll never know whether they're a Pruitt or a Bradley.

We as fans never know, but it seems Doc has a pretty good idea. Bill Walker, Gabe Pruit, Giddens, and Erden didn't exactly set the world on fire when they got their chances. Force feeding bad player minutes for the sake of potential isn't something a good coach does.

Its a false narrative Doc has played plenty of young guys over his coaching career. He merely hasn't played them many minutes from 08-09 onward, when our draft picks have been low and we've been a "win now" team.

[guava_wrench]

Imagine that, you give young players time, despite their weaknesses / mistakes, and they develop rapidly.

Who knew?

Like Pruitt.

Counter examples are not lacking.

But unless you give the players time, you'll never know whether they're a Pruitt or a Bradley.

So you have to do a cost-benefit analysis. You can't give up wins to give everyone an extended trial. Sometimes this means let them get familiar first and when they look ready, start trying them out.

No matter what a coach does apart from playing a young guy 48 minutes, there will be fans who complain that the player isn't getting a fair shot and should get more minutes. There will also be fans who say that the minutes are pointless and the guy is hopeless.

The careers of the guys who passed through the Celtics under Doc seem to show that he did a pretty good job evaluating who was worth minutes. A lot of these young guys need minutes so they can one day be a Keyon Dooling type player. If you already have the developed player, why not play that player instead of the guy who isn't at that level yet and only hopes to one day be at par with the vet?

It is easy to look down upon vets whose limitations are well-known by fans and to have great hopes for young guys who are less well-known by fans, but well-known by their coaches and teammates. I am not putting a limit on Bradley or Moore. I am just not a fan of over-confident second guessing that cherry-picks data points to make a complicated situation falsely seem simple. I feel like this is what is happening when people complain about JJJ not getting minutes or Dooling getting minutes over Moore.

[Chris]

Imagine that, you give young players time, despite their weaknesses / mistakes, and they develop rapidly.

Who knew?

Like Pruitt.

Counter examples are not lacking.

But unless you give the players time, you'll never know whether they're a Pruitt or a Bradley.

We as fans never know, but it seems Doc has a pretty good idea. Bill Walker, Gabe Pruit, Giddens, and Erden didn't exactly set the world on fire when they got their chances. Force feeding bad player minutes for the sake of potential isn't something a good coach does.

Its a false narrative Doc has played plenty of young guys over his coaching career. He merely hasn't played them many minutes from 08-09 onward, when our draft picks have been low and we've been a "win now" team.

Yeah, I think one of Doc's greatest strengths is recognizing when a player is and isn't ready.

Doc knows that there are some things that a player needs to master before they start getting regular minutes.  If they don't, then it is going to hurt them in the longrun. 

Doc has done a tremendous job of easing guys in, so that he pushes them, without overwhelming them. 

[MBunge]

Many people like to talk about Doc not playing young guys, but there is a lack of examples of these same guys succeeding elsewhere.

We've got two examples staring us in the face right now in Bradley and Moore.  If Rondo and Dooling aren't both injured for an extended period at the same time, Moore never gets off the bench and Bradley plays single digit minutes at best.  Now, neither Moore or Bradley are better than Rondo, but I think you can make an argument that both would be better than Dooling or trying to run the offense through Marquis.

Mike

They are both playing.

Oh, for pete's sake.  The point is that the ONLY reason Bradley's playing more than single digits and the ONLY reason Moore is playing at all is that both Rondo and Dooling are hurt.  If either one of those guys was available, neither Bradley nor Moore would be getting the minutes they are now.  But as we've now seen, not only are both guys capable of contributing but playing more minutes has dramatically improved the performance of Bradley.  Avery has gone from being a possible draft bust who MIGHT get better next season to a guy who looks like a genuine back up guard in the NBA.

And let's remember something.  Early in the season Doc was really playing Dooling as a 2 guard and, rather than play Bradley or Moore, he was trying to run the offense with Marquis.  And if Rondo and Dooling don't both go down at the same time, it's almost certain that's what he'd still be doing, no matter how badly it was working.

Mike

[guava_wrench]

Many people like to talk about Doc not playing young guys, but there is a lack of examples of these same guys succeeding elsewhere.

We've got two examples staring us in the face right now in Bradley and Moore.  If Rondo and Dooling aren't both injured for an extended period at the same time, Moore never gets off the bench and Bradley plays single digit minutes at best.  Now, neither Moore or Bradley are better than Rondo, but I think you can make an argument that both would be better than Dooling or trying to run the offense through Marquis.

Mike

They are both playing.

Oh, for pete's sake.  The point is that the ONLY reason Bradley's playing more than single digits and the ONLY reason Moore is playing at all is that both Rondo and Dooling are hurt.  If either one of those guys was available, neither Bradley nor Moore would be getting the minutes they are now.  But as we've now seen, not only are both guys capable of contributing but playing more minutes has dramatically improved the performance of Bradley.  Avery has gone from being a possible draft bust who MIGHT get better next season to a guy who looks like a genuine back up guard in the NBA.

And let's remember something.  Early in the season Doc was really playing Dooling as a 2 guard and, rather than play Bradley or Moore, he was trying to run the offense with Marquis.  And if Rondo and Dooling don't both go down at the same time, it's almost certain that's what he'd still be doing, no matter how badly it was working.

Mike

For Pete's sake, Bradley has been playing all season. You are basing your argument on a 'what-it' scenario -- what if Rondo and Dooling didn't get hurt. Well, if they didn't, Bradley still would have played as he has in all but 1 game. As the season progressed, minutes would increase as the young guys get more comfortable.

Early in the season, the team was horrible and Doc was trying to get KG and Pierce on track while also helping Dooling, Wilcox and Bass learn our system.

Doc kept playing Bradley when Bradley was horrible.

[guava_wrench]

Mike,

Look at the Dallas game. Rondo and Dooling both played, Pietrus was already on the team, yet Bradley played only 2 less minutes than Dooling. Against the Wizards, Bradley played 3 less. Daniels and Ray Allen were both available for both games.

Doc made an effort to get Bradley minutes even without injuries. Do you expect him to bench Dooling at the beginning of the season so that Bradley can get even more minutes, even though Dooling was outplaying him?