Bill Simmons idea: JO+our two 2012 first round picks for Verajao

[snively]

I think it's all based on how people view the team. I tend to side with Rondo, and think that realistically we can't compete this season for a title.

I mean i hope to god that im wrong, but as of now I just don't think we can contend with or without AV

I think the deal proposed could make us a legitimate contender (provided Rondo and the Big 3 are healthy come playoff time of course).  The team has rediscovered its top 5 defensive form, and deploys the same array of elite jump-shooters that has kept us dangerous offensively in the past.  

What has kept us in the bottom half of the league offensively for the past 3 years has been offensive rebounding. Turnovers have also been a big problem, but that's always been the case in the Big 3 era: our ensemble, pass-heavy offensive approach produces high % shots and a lot of turnovers.  But offensive rebounding only became a problem in the 2009-2010 season and played a huge role in dropping us from a top 10 offense to the mediocre one we've been ever since.

In 08/09 we had two rotation players averaging offensive rebounding rates above 11%: Perk and Powe, who was one of the league's best offensive rebounders before the injury.  The next year Powe was gone, Perk fell to 9%, and Baby was the only guy to post a plus 11% rating.

Last year it got even worse, as Baby fell off dramatically (from 13% to 5%!), and only Krstic posted an 11% rate in a very small sample size.

This year, we don't have a single rebounder above the 10% threshold. And our top 3 offensive rebounders (JJ, Stiemsma and Wilcox) barely play.

As of now, Varejao has a 16.8% offensive rebound rate, which is better than our starting frontcourt (KG, JO and Pierce) combined!  If he could sustain anything close to that %, our offense would move into the top 10.  A top 10 offense + a top 5 defense = a contender.  

[Tgro]

As of now, Varejao has a 16.8% offensive rebound rate, which is better than our starting frontcourt (KG, JO and Pierce) combined!  If he could sustain anything close to that %, our offense would move into the top 10.  A top 10 offense + a top 5 defense = a contender.

I think that's what we would be. I DO consider us contenders (with the addition). Why put off on being a contender tomorrow when we can be one today and still have options for tomorrow as well? Blowing up today gives us nothing for awhile and only hopefully gives us something down the road.

These guys aren't far off NOW! A legitimate center and a bench that has gelled with good chemistry has put us in the position to give it one last shot. Providing everyone stays healthy for the playoffs, I think we're a move like this away from being a legitimate contender this year.

I'm not saying we win against the Heat or the Bulls but I'm not so certain we lose either. One last go at it and then I'll be all for busting the gang up. This year is the last hurrah. I will not entertain these thoughts next year. But as of now, I see this team as close and just needs a move or two to be right there in contention this year. I'd rather take a stab today when it's feasible rather than hoping we have something 3 or 4 years from now and the pain of mediocrity inbetween. The pain is a lot easier to take knowing we gave it our all when we had the pieces in place. I think the one thing we've been lacking since the Perkins trade is a Center. And whenever we've had a decent one in the past, we've been a pretty elite team.

[snively]

I think the one thing we've been lacking since the Perkins trade is a Center. And whenever we've had a decent one in the past, we've been a pretty elite team.

I'd consider Varejao to be an upgrade on Perk.  Sort of hybrid between Perk and Powe in terms of what he would bring to the team.

Unfortunately, as excited as I get thinking about acquiring him, I can't see it happening.  Perk, coming off of a major injury, yielded a rotation caliber big (Krstic), a well-regarded swing forward with scoring ability (Green) and what looked to be a late lottery pick at the time.  I think Varejao could cost even more.

Of course, the Gerald Wallace trade is cause for more hope in this regard.  Portland nabbed him for Przybilla (equivalent to JO), Cunningham (roughly equivalent to Moore or Stiemsma), Marks (throwaway) and two first rounders (equivalent to the ones we're offering).  At the time of the trade Charlotte was 25-32, which is right about where Cleveland is trending now.

[EDWARDO]

Out of all the terrible, terrible, terrible trades I've seen here over the past few years, this has to be the worst one I've seen. 

this.

Really? REALLY?!?!?

For every 50 trade ideas there are 45 that are complete utter ridiculous garbage, 3-4 that are interesting but can probably never happen and 1-2 that actually makes sense and this is clearly one of those judging by the very reasonable give and take here.

If the Big 3 were 2-3 years younger this is the ULTIMATE no brainer... perfect fit, huge energy, needs no shots, complete animal on the glass, very very decent contract. It'd be perfect.

If they had a 30% chance of winning a championship, he'd make it a 50% chance... exactly what they'd need.

But not sure you trade picks to improve your chances from 1% to 3%.

I could go either way. Very intriguing trade idea and one of the best I have read on the forum.

[EDWARDO]

Here are some recent SUPER AWESOME ideas posted on this very blog. Remember these are actual posts from actual basketball fans:

"Rondo and JJ For Tyson Chandler. He's a great fit here. Chandler and Kevin is a perfect fit. Is this a title contender if we get a Mo Wlliams or George Hill in another deal."


Here's a classic. I think Kevin McHale posted this one. I like how we give up the best player in the deal by a mile, but also give up a first rounder and get back a 2nd... what's the opposite of the icing on cake?:

"ray allen
JJ or dooling
first round pick (boston)

for

lee
Budinger
thabeet
second round pick"


and who could forget:
"Paul Pierce Straight up for....
 Luol Deng."

and another one...
"allen for b rush"

combine those last 2 and imagine the possibilities! we could trade two hall of famers for Luol Deng and Brandon Rush...


and yet the AV trade in this thread is the worst ever? and when a big majority of the people on this board would either do the trade or at least consider it?

WOW.

[chambers]

I wonder if the Cavs have a Cavaliersblog.com or something similar with their die hard fans post ideas like us.
Would love to see what they think about this.

edit: I just joined their blog to ask this exact question/trade proposal.
Will post their responses here ASAP.

[Tgro]

I wonder if the Cavs have a Cavaliersblog.com or something similar with their die hard fans post ideas like us.
Would love to see what they think about this.

edit: I just joined their blog to ask this exact question/trade proposal.
Will post their responses here ASAP.

Can't wait to see that !

[MBunge]

As of now, Varejao has a 16.8% offensive rebound rate, which is better than our starting frontcourt (KG, JO and Pierce) combined!  If he could sustain anything close to that

Except, we all know he wouldn't sustain anything close to that because of the Celtics' emphasis on getting back on defense.  And even if Doc gave AV a greenlight to attack the offensive glass and not worry about getting back, he'd constantly be one guy trying to outrebound 5. AV would still likely be a better offensive rebounder than anyone Boston has had the last 5 years, but I don't think it would be that big of a difference.

Frankly, any trade attempt should focus on Chris Kaman and not Varejao.

Mike

[Fafnir]

As of now, Varejao has a 16.8% offensive rebound rate, which is better than our starting frontcourt (KG, JO and Pierce) combined!  If he could sustain anything close to that

Except, we all know he wouldn't sustain anything close to that because of the Celtics' emphasis on getting back on defense.  And even if Doc gave AV a greenlight to attack the offensive glass and not worry about getting back, he'd constantly be one guy trying to outrebound 5. AV would still likely be a better offensive rebounder than anyone Boston has had the last 5 years, but I don't think it would be that big of a difference.

Frankly, any trade attempt should focus on Chris Kaman and not Varejao.

Mike

Glen Davis when asked to be a offensive rebounder like I imagine AV would have had a ton of success on that end of the glass. Same thing with Powe, I think the C's would utilize his strength.

[snively]

As of now, Varejao has a 16.8% offensive rebound rate, which is better than our starting frontcourt (KG, JO and Pierce) combined!  If he could sustain anything close to that

Except, we all know he wouldn't sustain anything close to that because of the Celtics' emphasis on getting back on defense.  And even if Doc gave AV a greenlight to attack the offensive glass and not worry about getting back, he'd constantly be one guy trying to outrebound 5. AV would still likely be a better offensive rebounder than anyone Boston has had the last 5 years, but I don't think it would be that big of a difference.

Frankly, any trade attempt should focus on Chris Kaman and not Varejao.

Mike

Doc's emphasis on getting back defensively didn't keep the C's from placing 7th in offensive rebounding % in 08/09 (well-above the league-worst rankings we've put up since). 

That year Powe grabbed 15% of available offensive rebounds, Perk 11%.

When we have the personnel, we become a better offensive rebounding team.  We haven't had the personnel since Powe got injured (Sheed a notoriously bad offensive rebounder, JO not much better).  The only good offensive rebounder who significantly under-performed under Doc was Baby, dropping from 13% in 09/10 to a pitiful 5% last year.  And that had a lot more to do with playing out on the perimeter (something Varejao wouldn't do).

[StartOrien]

You're really hurting your cause when you put this:

and who could forget:
"Paul Pierce Straight up for....
 Luol Deng.

Not that I'd necessarily do it, but that trade makes a lot of sense as well.

[Moranis]

I wonder if the Cavs have a Cavaliersblog.com or something similar with their die hard fans post ideas like us.
Would love to see what they think about this.

edit: I just joined their blog to ask this exact question/trade proposal.
Will post their responses here ASAP.

I work at a company headquarted in Cleveland and I asked some of the guys in that office (who are actually Cavs fans) about it and they all would jump at that trade, which means to me the Celtics are giving up too much.  I then asked about just 1 first instead of the 2 proposed and there was a lot more hesitation, but the general thought was probably do that.  That indicates to me, that 2 firsts is too much, but 1 is probably just about right.

[Employee8]

I like to think our Celtics are respectable players on the court.  AV hurts that image with his flopping.  I don't care about his rebounding numbers, I just don't like the kid.  Pass!

[goCeltics]

i would love the c's to get rid of jermaine and get a center

but i think we could get either biedrens or okafor without giving up as much draft wise, and it doubtful the cleveland would agree to the deal.

i was thinking

biedrens for

dooling+
o'neal

gs wanted to dump him earlier in the year to go after chandler or jordan. Also he is not getting along with jackson it seems as his minutes have gone down.

2nd preference would be

o'neal+dooling+daniels+stiemsma

for

okafor

we keep both pick in comparsion to the varejo deal but have to pay about $5 million dollars extra the next two years.

any deal with dooling or daniels has to wait march one.

[chambers]

So I posted the question on the Cavaliers blog 'fearthesword'.

They aren't very receptive to the trade, but they seem to be missing the point...
Take a look for yourselves:

http://www.fearthesword.com/2012/2/4/2771228/bill-simmons-proposed-trade-with-cetlics-verajao-for-two-2012-first