Pierce for Anthony?

[byennie]

I'm not really understanding what you're saying.  The fact that the OP got some heat for proposing a trade of the franchise hero for a member of a New York team is not surprising.  However, I think the response from the opposite end of the spectrum would have been much more extreme and jeering if this were not a Celtics forum.  Few people value Celtics players nearly as highly as we do outside of this forum.

For the record, I don't mind get skewered from both sides (yeah ok that sounds awful but I'll leave it). What bugs me is the "that's just awful" comments with no explanation.

Clearly there are people here that think BOTH sides of the proposed deal get hosed, so either half of them are idiots or it's not that clear of an answer.

[PosImpos]

I'm not really understanding what you're saying.  The fact that the OP got some heat for proposing a trade of the franchise hero for a member of a New York team is not surprising.  However, I think the response from the opposite end of the spectrum would have been much more extreme and jeering if this were not a Celtics forum.  Few people value Celtics players nearly as highly as we do outside of this forum.

For the record, I don't mind get skewered from both sides (yeah ok that sounds awful but I'll leave it). What bugs me is the "that's just awful" comments with no explanation.

Clearly there are people here that think BOTH sides of the proposed deal get hosed, so either half of them are idiots or it's not that clear of an answer.

Look, I understand your frustration with getting "oh man that's awful" kind of responses.

However, if you'll read the Trade Ideas & Rumors forum a bit, you'll see that ridiculous, completely unrealistic trade ideas get floated every single day.  

At some point you just lose interest in explaining every single time why something is absurd when it should be pretty obvious to somebody who follows the NBA with any regularity outside of just watching the Celtics and CSNE.


As to your trade idea, it IS that clear of an answer -- you're just getting skewered by one group that sees Paul Pierce as an untouchable member of Celtics lore in the tradition of Larry and Hondo, on par with Kobe as one of the best perimeter players in the last decade, while also getting skewered by a group that realizes that a trade of an in-his-prime elite scorer for a much older and not really better player at the same position is never going to happen.

[feckless]

Forget about Celtics loyalty -- this is a blog for people who are hardcore fans of the NBA in general.  If you come on here and make a trade proposal that is obviously ridiculous and that any GM in the league would openly laugh at, you should expect to get a sarcastic / condescending response.

If you're new here and you don't know as much as everybody else, that's fine.  I'm not saying it's okay for posters to run the naive or less knowledgeable fans out of town. 

But I think it's reasonable on Internet forums, especially ones focused around a specific topic (like the Celtics and the NBA), to hold newer people to the expectation that they'll lurk a bit and read other people's posts for a while before they make topics of their own.

You kind of proved my point there... how condescending can you get? I must be new here, or naive?I'm very much a hardcore fan, I understand quite well the salary cap, player value, advanced metrics (which like baseball now are a major force in player evaluations), and everything else.

I've also participated here for a couple of years and am fairly careful about adding something to the discussion. I'm actually a lot more discerning that you it would seem, considering you post here 11 time a day (!).

Feel free to disagree, I think trade threads are obviously for fun, and frankly more fun with a little disagreement. Just look at this one... at least half the people here think it's a bad trade for the Celtics! But all you've really said here in a slightly nicer way it "haha what a dumb idea". That's the sort of thing that makes a forum less enjoyable.

Most superstars are traded for less when things go sour. Especially ones that may be perceived as petulant, no-defense, luxury tax inducing contracts. Obviously if the Knicks still feel good about Carmelo this ain't gonna happen. That's why it's a theoretical thread in a fan forum.

If this were not a Celtics forum, you would have been treated much less nicely for proposing a Pierce for Melo swap.  That's where I'm gonna leave this one.

This is true but isn't that as it should be on a CELTICS forum where a proposed trade of the CELTICS Captain for a knick is made?

I'm not really understanding what you're saying.  The fact that the OP got some heat for proposing a trade of the franchise hero for a member of a New York team is not surprising.  However, I think the response from the opposite end of the spectrum would have been much more extreme and jeering if this were not a Celtics forum.  Few people value Celtics players nearly as highly as we do outside of this forum.

   

Posimpos the debate has confused me, and I am unsure as to who is responding to what.  I do agree with your last statement.

[PosImpos]

Posimpos the debate has confused me, and I am unsure as to who is responding to what.  I do agree with your last statement.

Alright.

[xhfjc36]

Pierce's value is not remotely close to Carmelo. Sure, he's playing some pretty great basketball right now and he has his intangibles, but Carmelo is a prolific scorer at his prime while Pierce is at his twilight years. The Knicks are trying to build a team around a core of Carmelo and Amare, and to trade for Pierce is to defeat that purpose. The added draft picks might add incentive, but not much given that chances are we're not going to end up in the lottery anyways. JJJ is vastly overrated, too, so there's little value there, either.

[byennie]

Look, I understand your frustration with getting "oh man that's awful" kind of responses.

However, if you'll read the Trade Ideas & Rumors forum a bit, you'll see that ridiculous, completely unrealistic trade ideas get floated every single day.  

At some point you just lose interest in explaining every single time why something is absurd when it should be pretty obvious to somebody who follows the NBA with any regularity outside of just watching the Celtics and CSNE.


As to your trade idea, it IS that clear of an answer -- you're just getting skewered by one group that sees Paul Pierce as an untouchable member of Celtics lore in the tradition of Larry and Hondo, on par with Kobe as one of the best perimeter players in the last decade, while also getting skewered by a group that realizes that a trade of an in-his-prime elite scorer for a much older and not really better player at the same position is never going to happen.

You're hopeless, man. I'm fine with your opinion on the trade. I don't agree with it, but I'm not here just for high-fives and Celtics lore. However you just can't seem to disagree without the condescension.

I DO read the Trade Ideas & Rumors forum quite a bit.

I DO follow the NBA outside of watching the Celtics and CSNE. I live on the west coast now and watch other teams quite regularly, as I have for the past 20 years or so. I follow the intricacies of the CBA, enjoy all of the different stat metrics popping up these days, and so on and so forth. By any measure I'm a well informed fan. Get over your need to assume that you have superior knowledge. I get it, you're a hardcore fan too.

You've lost interest in explaining to the naive why their ideas are so stupid? Get off your NBA fan pedestal, man. If you're so tired of it, resist the temptation to hijack threads. Leave THAT to the newbies and the trolls, after 11,000 posts you should know better.

[byennie]

Pierce's value is not remotely close to Carmelo. Sure, he's playing some pretty great basketball right now and he has his intangibles, but Carmelo is a prolific scorer at his prime while Pierce is at his twilight years. The Knicks are trying to build a team around a core of Carmelo and Amare, and to trade for Pierce is to defeat that purpose. The added draft picks might add incentive, but not much given that chances are we're not going to end up in the lottery anyways. JJJ is vastly overrated, too, so there's little value there, either.

The core of Amare, Carmelo and Chandler uses the ENTIRE salary cap through 2016, and right now they are 7-13. They may improve, but if this team can't even play .500 ball are they going to wait 4 more years to solve the problem or move someone?

I see where you are coming from - I'm not saying Pierce is equal value for Carmelo. But New York is in a lot of trouble IMO, they never have any trouble selling tickets, and a Pierce deal would solve both of their problems potentially - salary cap and lack of draft picks.

[PosImpos]

Look, I understand your frustration with getting "oh man that's awful" kind of responses.

However, if you'll read the Trade Ideas & Rumors forum a bit, you'll see that ridiculous, completely unrealistic trade ideas get floated every single day.  

At some point you just lose interest in explaining every single time why something is absurd when it should be pretty obvious to somebody who follows the NBA with any regularity outside of just watching the Celtics and CSNE.


As to your trade idea, it IS that clear of an answer -- you're just getting skewered by one group that sees Paul Pierce as an untouchable member of Celtics lore in the tradition of Larry and Hondo, on par with Kobe as one of the best perimeter players in the last decade, while also getting skewered by a group that realizes that a trade of an in-his-prime elite scorer for a much older and not really better player at the same position is never going to happen.

You're hopeless, man. I'm fine with your opinion on the trade. I don't agree with it, but I'm not here just for high-fives and Celtics lore. However you just can't seem to disagree without the condescension.

I DO read the Trade Ideas & Rumors forum quite a bit.

I DO follow the NBA outside of watching the Celtics and CSNE. I live on the west coast now and watch other teams quite regularly, as I have for the past 20 years or so. I follow the intricacies of the CBA, enjoy all of the different stat metrics popping up these days, and so on and so forth. By any measure I'm a well informed fan. Get over your need to assume that you have superior knowledge. I get it, you're a hardcore fan too.

You've lost interest in explaining to the naive why their ideas are so stupid? Get off your NBA fan pedestal, man. If you're so tired of it, resist the temptation to hijack threads. Leave THAT to the newbies and the trolls, after 11,000 posts you should know better.

I'm not sure what your problem is; I've explained in great detail now why I think your trade proposal is unrealistic, despite the fact that I originally didn't think it ought to be necessary.

I haven't exactly hijacked this thread, either, since I've only responded to things that are on-topic and in the flow of the conversation.

[Finkelskyhook]

Replace the snitchster with Pierce and the Knicks become the Knicks become a feared contender.  Replace Pierce with the snitchster and the Celtics become the Nuggets prior to getting rid of him.

The snitchster will never sacrifice his game for the good of the team.

I'll admit I didn't understand much of that rant, but here's what stuck with me:

You're telling me the only thing between the Knicks being a "feared contender" and being a sub-.500 also-ran is switching Melo for 34 year old Paul Pierce?

Wow.  People are even more biased on this forum than I realized.

Not really.  And the answer to your question is yes.

Pierce adds a third person at a critical position to the Knicks who actually would play defense.  (Should the second coming of Paul Westhead allow such a concept)  He actually moves the ball around on offense. 

Anthony would have the exact opposite effect on a defensive minded team that moves the ball on offense.

Here's the thing.  The snitchster has played with a solid pass-first PG.  He's played with a shoot first PG.  He's played with a champion PG who's an excellent defender.  Result is pretty much the same.  He's played for a defensive minded coach and he's played for the modern day Paul Westhead.  Result is pretty much the same.

Pierce may not be a better player.  But he's a way more mature one...Who sacrificed his game for his team.  He fits into the Knicks' roster much better than the snitchster does. 

[PosImpos]

Replace the snitchster with Pierce and the Knicks become the Knicks become a feared contender.  Replace Pierce with the snitchster and the Celtics become the Nuggets prior to getting rid of him.

The snitchster will never sacrifice his game for the good of the team.

I'll admit I didn't understand much of that rant, but here's what stuck with me:

You're telling me the only thing between the Knicks being a "feared contender" and being a sub-.500 also-ran is switching Melo for 34 year old Paul Pierce?

Wow.  People are even more biased on this forum than I realized.

Not really.  And the answer to your question is yes.

Pierce adds a third person at a critical position to the Knicks who actually would play defense.  (Should the second coming of Paul Westhead allow such a concept)  He actually moves the ball around on offense. 

Anthony would have the exact opposite effect on a defensive minded team that moves the ball on offense.

Here's the thing.  The snitchster has played with a solid pass-first PG.  He's played with a shoot first PG.  He's played with a champion PG who's an excellent defender.  Result is pretty much the same.  He's played for a defensive minded coach and he's played for the modern day Paul Westhead.  Result is pretty much the same.

Pierce may not be a better player.  But he's a way more mature one...Who sacrificed his game for his team.  He fits into the Knicks' roster much better than the snitchster does. 

Even if I accept the premise that the Knicks would be better with Pierce than with Melo (and I don't), I would have a very hard time buying that they'd be a "feared contender."

[byennie]

I'm not sure what your problem is; I've explained in great detail now why I think your trade proposal is unrealistic, despite the fact that I originally didn't think it ought to be necessary.

I haven't exactly hijacked this thread, either, since I've only responded to things that are on-topic and in the flow of the conversation.

My problem, which I've repeated 3 or 4 times now, is that you are incredibly condescending. You've called me a new poster, suggested I lurk a while, that I'm not a hardcore fan, that I'm Celtics biased, that I don't really follow the NBA, that my ideas are absurd, that you don't think it should even be necessary to explain why, and on and on. Either you're trolling or very immature (or both).

"Despite the fact that I originally didn't think it ought to be necessary". Sigh. And on it goes.

I couldn't care less that you strongly disagree with the trade. If everyone thought it was great we wouldn't have a discussion. I'm fine with your basketball-related explanations, they're valid even if I don't agree with them.

You hijacked the thread by making the FIRST reply, "There are no words." Don't you have anything better to do? As it turns out other people chimed in and were interested, but immediately dismissing a new topic as a stupid idea is hijacking the thread if you can't even be bothered to say why.

[byennie]

Even if I accept the premise that the Knicks would be better with Pierce than with Melo (and I don't), I would have a very hard time buying that they'd be a "feared contender."

I agree with this. The Knicks aren't one player away from contention unless that player is LeBron. I don't know if they'd be better with Pierce, but I don't think they'd be worse *this year* at least.

[PosImpos]

I'm not sure what your problem is; I've explained in great detail now why I think your trade proposal is unrealistic, despite the fact that I originally didn't think it ought to be necessary.

I haven't exactly hijacked this thread, either, since I've only responded to things that are on-topic and in the flow of the conversation.

My problem, which I've repeated 3 or 4 times now, is that you are incredibly condescending. You've called me a new poster, suggested I lurk a while, that I'm not a hardcore fan, that I'm Celtics biased, that I don't really follow the NBA, that my ideas are absurd, that you don't think it should even be necessary to explain why, and on and on. Either you're trolling or very immature (or both).

"Despite the fact that I originally didn't think it ought to be necessary". Sigh. And on it goes.

I couldn't care less that you strongly disagree with the trade. If everyone thought it was great we wouldn't have a discussion. I'm fine with your basketball-related explanations, they're valid even if I don't agree with them.

You hijacked the thread by making the FIRST reply, "There are no words." Don't you have anything better to do? As it turns out other people chimed in and were interested, but immediately dismissing a new topic as a stupid idea is hijacking the thread if you can't even be bothered to say why.

I guess we have very different definitions of what it means to hijack a thread.

I assumed you were a new[ish] or inexperienced poster because I haven't noticed you making posts elsewhere, your post count is low, you have no avatar / signature, etc.  In short, I don't recognize you.


In any case, you've clearly taken offense to my dismissal of your trade idea.  I apologize that the nature of my response has offended you so, though I do not retract my statements because I maintain their validity -- the trade idea proposed in the original thread is completely unrealistic.

That concludes what I'm going to say on the matter.

[Finkelskyhook]

PosImpos...Among other things...Pierce has played for two completely different coaches.  He's done what each coach asked of him to lead each of those teams to the absolute pinnacle that they could possibly attain.  So to say he'd fit in to the Knicks' roster better than the snitchster would is, respectfully, stating the obvious.  Trade those two players on last years teams and we don't get out of the first round.

I'm not going to say the snitchster doesn't care about winning.  But he has no history of compromising any part of his game to fit into a team concept.  

The Knicks were much better when they had an actual leader last season.  They don't have one now.  They'd be trading for one in this trade so they'd be markedly better.  Even if they'd be getting a less talented player.


The snitchster will likely have an Iversonesque career.  He's a little more likable than Iverson so his career probably won't end the way Iverson's did.  But he'll put up the same kind of stats and play for the same number of coaches...And likely the same number of teams.  The Knicks organization isn't nearly as stable as the Nuggets and won't give any coach the opportunity to see things through that the Nuggets have given George Karl.

[Redz]

Gentlemen (assuming you're both male here).  You're going to have to agree to disagree and move on.  Thing's like "you're hopeless" and "condescending" aren't for here.  Please drop it. - Redz