Are we a better team without Rondo and Ray?

[greenpride32]

On the defensive side I say no question.  Rondo gambles way too much and when he gets burned it leads to easy buckets.  I'd give him a little more leniency if he was getting more steals but those numbers have been down.  Also getting 2-3 steals a game really doesn't make up for giving up 7-8 easy buckets.  Ray pretty much gets burned on every play against a starting younger and quicker 2 (which is just about everyone in the league). 

Now these guys are better overall offensive players but too inconsistent.  On some nights we might get 8 points from them, and on others 20 points.  I know with Pierce if he gets a lot of shots he can still easily average over 20 points a game so he needs to be the go to guy the rest of this year; no more over sharing.

[jdz101]

Defensively yes.

Offensively hell no

Remember how many open looks from 3 guys like the Pav got in the first Orlando game?

Ray would have had a field day.

[greenpride32]

Remember how many open looks from 3 guys like the Pav got in the first Orlando game?

Ray would have had a field day.

I'm thinking it were Ray there would be a guy glued to him.  Pav was open well because he's Pav.

[CelticsFanNC]

  No.  We're probably not even better defensively.  Look at whom we beat.

 Orlando is extremely flawed.  They are Dwight Howard and a bunch of journeymen and scrubs.  Their best player is far from a go to scorer.  If you get them off of the 3pt line they are mediocre offensively.

  We cannot beat the best team in the NBA without a full deck.  We may not even be able to beat them with all hands on board.  Don't kid yourself into thinking we can.  Rondo comes up huge in big games.  Do you honestly believe at this point in their careers Bradley and Moore can do the same?   He is one of if not the best facilitators in the NBA playing on a team that lacks guys who can create offense for themselves and others

 Ray is a big game player as well and has hit huge shots throughout his entire career.  Yes his defense isn't what it once was but even when we were struggling badly only a few games ago it wasn't our defense that was killing us it was the scoring droughts.

  I do think Doc needs to continue to mix in the young guys with the veterans.  That's what I have learned from all of this.  Our mixture of young legs and veteran experience has been way off until these injuries hit and forced Doc's hand.  When you add some youthful energy to the mixture the older guys don't look quite so slow.  The young guys don't look like deer in headlights when they are on the floor with guys who have seen and done it all.

[jdz101]

We're definitely not a better team without Rondo.

Ray is debatable because the younger guys will grow to be more effective defensively than him...

Paul Pierce + Pietrus (Or Jeff Green) vs. Turkoglu & Q.Rich is a horrible match up for the magic and Paul just licks his lips every magic game.

Garnett + Bass vs. Anderson & Baby doesnt improve their situation either...im still giggling about that trade.

[drax]

No.

Rondo is just to important offenivly, because he provides athleticism that is needed when you want to play with a outside-scoring team. Our offense depends on what happens in the paint if we dont have the thread of Rondo attacking the rim or a big man at the post we are easy to defend against. Protect the perimeter. And Rajons defense is not that bad either.

RayRay Ray is debatable. But he is a thread beyond the arc everytime he is on the floor.

Avery Bradley is a great defender but can he keep that tempo and aggresive defending every night, 30 minutes a game? His style of defense costs to much energy for a starter. Also he still need to improve offensivly. He has proven that he is a good option of the bench.

I'm glad we have the opertunity to rotate more. 

[Roy H.]

I'm surprised people are debating Ray's effectiveness.

First, he's been by far our most efficient offensive player.  There's a question about whether he's getting enough shots in the offense, but there's no doubt that when he takes shots, he makes them at a more efficient rate than anybody else on the team.

Defensively, at least through January 18 he'd held opponents to a 9.9 PER and a .437 eFG%.  To date, opponents are shooting 38.7% when he's covering them.  He's not a ball hawk like Bradley is, but opposing SGs aren't lighting him up, either.

[green7]

Defensively yes.

Offensively hell no

Remember how many open looks from 3 guys like the Pav got in the first Orlando game?

Ray would have had a field day.

but for some reason their winning

[green7]

if the c's win this pacer game tonight you might be right.

but we won with rondo in the line up in the last game against the raptors

[wdleehi]

No.



What we are seeing is Pierce re-emerging as the player he is.  


As popular as the theory that this team is as only good as Rondo, Pierce is still the key.  



Rondo and Ray's return will enhance what this team can do now that Pierce is back.

[Junkyard Dawg]

no.  not in any way, shape or form.  not defensively, not offensively, just, no.

[BballTim]

On the defensive side I say no question.  Rondo gambles way too much and when he gets burned it leads to easy buckets.  I'd give him a little more leniency if he was getting more steals but those numbers have been down.  Also getting 2-3 steals a game really doesn't make up for giving up 7-8 easy buckets.  Ray pretty much gets burned on every play against a starting younger and quicker 2 (which is just about everyone in the league). 

Now these guys are better overall offensive players but too inconsistent.  On some nights we might get 8 points from them, and on others 20 points.  I know with Pierce if he gets a lot of shots he can still easily average over 20 points a game so he needs to be the go to guy the rest of this year; no more over sharing.

  Wait until Rondo's been back for a couple of games and looks healthy, then start counting the number of games where he gives up 7-8 easy buckets. Remember not to count baskets opposing point guards make when Rondo's guarding someone else, or baskets scored when Rondo's on the bench. You'll be amazed about how few games like that he has.

[green7]

the ball is moving!! no one is looking for assist, it's just time to score. sometime rondo can run out the shot clock just to try and get the assist, when it's not worth it all. would rather get the win then to see rondo get 10 assist

[BballTim]

I'm surprised people are debating Ray's effectiveness.

First, he's been by far our most efficient offensive player.  There's a question about whether he's getting enough shots in the offense, but there's no doubt that when he takes shots, he makes them at a more efficient rate than anybody else on the team.

Defensively, at least through January 18 he'd held opponents to a 9.9 PER and a .437 eFG%.  To date, opponents are shooting 38.7% when he's covering them.  He's not a ball hawk like Bradley is, but opposing SGs aren't lighting him up, either.

  One problem Ray has is that as he loses his athleticism it gets harder for him to get open. He's shooting great, but he's taking fewer shots. The bigger issue I see is his passing, which is pretty turnover prone.

[gpap]

I think the OP actually brings up a pretty good point.
I find it just a tad too coincidental that the Celts have their best two games without Ray or Rondo.

Now I am not saying the Celts are a better team without Rondo and Ray. BUT, it's got to at least make you wonder.

I DO think that Rondo gambles way too much on offense (one of parts of his game I don't like) and I do think sometimes Ray is a bit too trigger happy with the 3. If he's having an off-night that doesn't bode well.

Definitely something to think about.Let's not forget, Orlando is one of the best teams in the East, not some chump team like the Wizards