Why Doc doesn't experiment with Lineup Changes?

[PosImpos]

Rondo + 4 athletes?  You're basically talking about a lineup like this:

Rondo - Bradley - Pietrus - Bass - Stiemsma


Not a surprise that Doc hasn't thrown that lineup out there much.

[MBunge]

Um, ever considered that Doc has decided not to play him mostly because of lack of performance?

What lack of performance?  Seriously, what happened on the court where a guy who could start and put up as good a performance as any other Celtic big suddenly can't get more than a minute in two of the last three losses?  How exactly did his performance drop so severely that he went from 21 minutes in a win against Washington, to 12 minutes in a blowout win against NJ, to 7 minutes in a blowout loss to IND, to 3 minutes in a loss against Dallas to 1 minute in a loss against the Bulls?  If he'd played more in those last 3 games, how precisely could Boston have possibly looked or performed worse than they did?

Again, I'm not saying Stiemsma would contend for rookie of the year, but can you point to any stretch where he's played as poorly and hurt the team as much as Avery Bradley has?  When your minutes get cut for poor performance, you actually have to perform poorly first.

Mike

[PosImpos]

Um, ever considered that Doc has decided not to play him mostly because of lack of performance?

What lack of performance?  Seriously, what happened on the court where a guy who could start and put up as good a performance as any other Celtic big suddenly can't get more than a minute in two of the last three losses?  How exactly did his performance drop so severely that he went from 21 minutes in a win against Washington, to 12 minutes in a blowout win against NJ, to 7 minutes in a blowout loss to IND, to 3 minutes in a loss against Dallas to 1 minute in a loss against the Bulls?  If he'd played more in those last 3 games, how precisely could Boston have possibly looked or performed worse than they did?

Again, I'm not saying Stiemsma would contend for rookie of the year, but can you point to any stretch where he's played as poorly and hurt the team as much as Avery Bradley has?  When your minutes get cut for poor performance, you actually have to perform poorly first.

Mike

it's about practice man, we talkin' about practice.

[kozlodoev]

Um, ever considered that Doc has decided not to play him mostly because of lack of performance?

What lack of performance?  Seriously, what happened on the court where a guy who could start and put up as good a performance as any other Celtic big suddenly can't get more than a minute in two of the last three losses?

The main thing that happened is that we stopped playing NBDL-grade teams.

[MBunge]

Um, ever considered that Doc has decided not to play him mostly because of lack of performance?

What lack of performance?  Seriously, what happened on the court where a guy who could start and put up as good a performance as any other Celtic big suddenly can't get more than a minute in two of the last three losses?

The main thing that happened is that we stopped playing NBDL-grade teams.

BLANK, BLANK, BLANKITY BLANKING BLANK!

Sorry, but I just had to swear.  Again, point me toward an example of Stiemsma's performance being bad AND THEN Doc sitting him down.  Show me a stretch where you looked at him on the court and said, "Holy crap, that guy sucks!  Get him out of there!"  Present the evidence that Stiemsma's play is what forced Doc to stop giving him time.

Mike

[Chris]

Um, ever considered that Doc has decided not to play him mostly because of lack of performance?

What lack of performance?  Seriously, what happened on the court where a guy who could start and put up as good a performance as any other Celtic big suddenly can't get more than a minute in two of the last three losses?

The main thing that happened is that we stopped playing NBDL-grade teams.

BLANK, BLANK, BLANKITY BLANKING BLANK!

Sorry, but I just had to swear.  Again, point me toward an example of Stiemsma's performance being bad AND THEN Doc sitting him down.  Show me a stretch where you looked at him on the court and said, "Holy crap, that guy sucks!  Get him out of there!"  Present the evidence that Stiemsma's play is what forced Doc to stop giving him time.

Mike

But Doc has continued to give him time.  He gave Wilcox a shot for a couple games (splitting the minutes), and neither of them really showed to be better than the other.  They both were pretty invisible.

The problem has been that Stiemsma has not been anywhere near as good as KG, Bass, and even JO (yes, he is painful to watch, but he is the best overall defensive big man they have...by a decent margin IMO), to get minutes over them. 

[33-00-32]

Um, ever considered that Doc has decided not to play him mostly because of lack of performance?

What lack of performance?  Seriously, what happened on the court where a guy who could start and put up as good a performance as any other Celtic big suddenly can't get more than a minute in two of the last three losses?

The main thing that happened is that we stopped playing NBDL-grade teams.

BLANK, BLANK, BLANKITY BLANKING BLANK!

Sorry, but I just had to swear.  Again, point me toward an example of Stiemsma's performance being bad AND THEN Doc sitting him down.  Show me a stretch where you looked at him on the court and said, "Holy crap, that guy sucks!  Get him out of there!"  Present the evidence that Stiemsma's play is what forced Doc to stop giving him time.

Mike

Some people just have to be negative...

I would like to see what Stiemsma's PER numbers look like compared to JO's. I would guess they're not too far different. The difference would be that one of them actually wants to play hard and can get out of their own way. JO has a role on this team but he is far from superior to what I have seen from Stiemsma at this point. I agree that there are less talented players, getting more minutes, at the same position, on teams with better records.

[MBunge]

But Doc has continued to give him time. 

Again, Steamer's playing time in the last 4 games has been 3, 1, 9 and 1 minute.  That's not because of matchups or his play or other guys on the team playing better.  That's just Doc deciding he's not going to play him.

Mike

[kozlodoev]

Show me a stretch where you looked at him on the court and said, "Holy crap, that guy sucks!  Get him out of there!"  Present the evidence that Stiemsma's play is what forced Doc to stop giving him time.

He was manhandled for every second of the time he spent on the floor against the Pacers, and it's been pretty much downhill from there. I don't see what I have to "present". We played average to good teams over the last 5 games, and he sucked. It's as simple as that.

Dang all you want, but that's not going to make Greg Stiemsma any better. Putting together a couple of good games against teams like New Orleans, Detroit, Washington, and New Jersey (combined record 10-44 at this point) doesn't magically turn you into a rotation-caliber NBA player.

[Celticjay]

problem is no player good or bad can play well if they have no idea if they are going to play or not.  Doc's never been good and giving consistent minutes to player or giving them enough rope to have some ups and downs.  He is way to random and it doesn't allow anyone to get into a rhythm or to get chemistry with other players..

[kozlodoev]

problem is no player good or bad can play well if they have no idea if they are going to play or not.  Doc's never been good and giving consistent minutes to player or giving them enough rope to have some ups and downs.  He is way to random and it doesn't allow anyone to get into a rhythm or to get chemistry with other players..

When it comes to giving minutes to establish rhythm, Doc's priority has always been the rhythm of his best players (which is part of the reason we're having this conversation in the first place). Can't say I blame him.

[ballin]

Show me a stretch where you looked at him on the court and said, "Holy crap, that guy sucks!  Get him out of there!"  Present the evidence that Stiemsma's play is what forced Doc to stop giving him time.

He was manhandled for every second of the time he spent on the floor against the Pacers, and it's been pretty much downhill from there. I don't see what I have to "present". We played average to good teams over the last 5 games, and he sucked. It's as simple as that.

Dang all you want, but that's not going to make Greg Stiemsma any better. Putting together a couple of good games against teams like New Orleans, Detroit, Washington, and New Jersey (combined record 10-44 at this point) doesn't magically turn you into a rotation-caliber NBA player.

huh? In the 9 minutes he played during the Pacers game he racked up 2 blocks and 3 rebounds, which rounds out to EIGHT blocks and 12 rebounds per 36 min. In what universe does that qualify as getting manhandled?

Secondly, in the other 3 of the last 4 games the C's have played, he's played 1 minute, 1 minute, and then 3 minutes. That's not enough time to show anything one way or the other. You could stick in Michael Jordan for 1 minute and the most he could do is score a single bucket. That's less than 3 full possessions, and for a guy who's like 5th in the pecking order in terms of who gets to shoot, etc.

In other words, he hasn't been given a shot.

It's the total opposite of that guy Jon Leuer in Milwaukee. He killed it in preseason so they started him... and now he's been killing it in the regular season.

Stiemsma did a great job (better than JO) when he got extended minutes, so why on earth shouldn't Doc keep giving him chances?

[MBunge]

Show me a stretch where you looked at him on the court and said, "Holy crap, that guy sucks!  Get him out of there!"  Present the evidence that Stiemsma's play is what forced Doc to stop giving him time.

He was manhandled for every second of the time he spent on the floor against the Pacers, and it's been pretty much downhill from there. I don't see what I have to "present". We played average to good teams over the last 5 games, and he sucked. It's as simple as that.

What color is the sky in your world.  Stiemsma hasn't, by any stretch, sucked over the last 5 games.  He hasn't even gotten a chance to suck in most of them.

Mike

[MBunge]

problem is no player good or bad can play well if they have no idea if they are going to play or not.  Doc's never been good and giving consistent minutes to player or giving them enough rope to have some ups and downs.  He is way to random and it doesn't allow anyone to get into a rhythm or to get chemistry with other players..

When it comes to giving minutes to establish rhythm, Doc's priority has always been the rhythm of his best players (which is part of the reason we're having this conversation in the first place). Can't say I blame him.

Wow.  You're not blaming Doc for something.  I am as shocked as shocked could be.

And Doc's priority is not always the rhythm of his best players or he wouldn't have kept Rondo's minutes so restricted during his rookie year.

Mike

[kozlodoev]

huh? In the 9 minutes he played during the Pacers game he racked up 2 blocks and 3 rebounds, which rounds out to EIGHT blocks and 12 rebounds per 36 min. In what universe does that qualify as getting manhandled?

Not this Indiana game -- the previous one, where he was tossed around by Hibbert, and Doc pulled him when he decided to play hockey defense on Hill (that would be 3 fouls and a turnover in just 7 minutes, if you're statistically inclined.

In the second Indiana game (which you seem to be referring to) his 9 minutes game chiefly in garbage time.

Secondly, in the other 3 of the last 4 games the C's have played, he's played 1 minute, 1 minute, and then 3 minutes. That's not enough time to show anything one way or the other. You could stick in Michael Jordan for 1 minute and the most he could do is score a single bucket. That's less than 3 full possessions, and for a guy who's like 5th in the pecking order in terms of who gets to shoot, etc.

I've explained multiple times in this thread what the reasons are for his decreased playing time. So if people still refuse to consider them, I guess repeating myself will be a waste of time.

In other words, he hasn't been given a shot.

He was. He demonstrated that he can do well against horrible teams (something we already knew from his time in the NBDL), but he gets exposed when he's matched up with actual NBA centers.

It's the total opposite of that guy Jon Leuer in Milwaukee. He killed it in preseason so they started him... and now he's been killing it in the regular season.

No, you actually got it backwards. He first started killing in the regular season, then they started him. It took three consecutive solid outings against solid teams (the Clippers, the Suns and the Spurs) before he got to start. And the jury is still out on how successful this experiment is, since he's been pretty poor over the last three games (and consequently his playing time has dropped below 20 mpg).