Rubio > Rondo, right?

[mobilija]

Best thread i've read in a while...

[jambr380]

I know Rubio is young, but hasn't he been playing professional basketball since he was 14? I know he was not a star for all of those years, but he certainly had more preparation than Rondo did in his one year of college basketball.

A [very good] argument could be made that Rubio is a much more polished player in his rookie year than Rondo was and he may not get 'that' much better. Rondo has improved leaps and bounds.

[Bahku]

If Rubio leads his team to a Championship in his first season as a starter, (and his defense, rebounding, physicality, willingness to take a beating, resiliency, confidence, floor vision, etc., is comparable), then I will start to consider this, (the comparison, not the trade idea) ... PG leadership and vision and success is about much more than numbers. It might be an considerable comparison if you're talking about scoring alone, but Rubio's got a long way to go to be in the same bracket as Rajon as a complete player. Great young baller, but no way would I trade Rondo for him at this point.

[deekhead]

I know Rubio is young, but hasn't he been playing professional basketball since he was 14? I know he was not a star for all of those years, but he certainly had more preparation than Rondo did in his one year of college basketball.

A [very good] argument could be made that Rubio is a much more polished player in his rookie year than Rondo was and he may not get 'that' much better. Rondo has improved leaps and bounds.

The kid is a very polished player who may not need to get that much better to be a better all around player than Rondo.

DH

[PosImpos]

If Rubio leads his team to a Championship in his first season as a starter, (and his defense, rebounding, physicality, willingness to take a beating, resiliency, confidence, floor vision, etc., is comparable), then I will start to consider this, (the comparison, not the trade idea) ... PG leadership and vision and success is about much more than numbers. It might be an considerable comparison if you're talking about scoring alone, but Rubio's got a long way to go to be in the same bracket as Rajon as a complete player. Great young baller, but no way would I trade Rondo for him at this point.

Um, how exactly did Rondo "lead" the Celtics to a championship?

[PosImpos]

Looking at the numbers Rubio is better than Rondo now at a younger age...essentially

I get the sense that you're just trying to bait people, but I'll bite:  what numbers are you talking about?  Certainly not points, assists, or overall shooting percentage.

He's a better free throw shooter, and a better three point shooter.  Those are the only numbers where he's really better than Rondo right now.

I'm getting a little tired of people's jedi senses tuned to bait whenever I disagree. Math is math. 

This is pretty textbook baiting.  I ask for numbers to back up what you're talking about, and you respond "math is math"? 

The only equivalent between math and this thread:  they both rely upon imaginary numbers.

Oh fine. Open the textbook to page one.

In a small sample size, which should logically be the hardest time of his career he hits threes at about 3 times the rate, hits free throws faaaarrrr more efficiently, has similar rebs and steals in less minutes (which makes sense because he's taller) has a couple blocks (also possibly because he's taller) per 36 minutes is only 1 assist less, and is doing it all on the Timberwolves instead of with 3 hall of famers and a former all star point guard for a coach like Rondo has.

Then there's the whole part about how Rondo definitely didn't have stats like this his rookie year

Isn't it widely accepted that when stars come together individual stats go down?

scoring averages go down, assist rates go up.  surround rubio with the kind of finishers that Rondo has at his disposal and play him 35-40 minutes a game and i wouldn't be at all surprised if he averaged more assists per game.

[wiley]

Looking at the numbers Rubio is better than Rondo now at a younger age...essentially

I get the sense that you're just trying to bait people, but I'll bite:  what numbers are you talking about?  Certainly not points, assists, or overall shooting percentage.

He's a better free throw shooter, and a better three point shooter.  Those are the only numbers where he's really better than Rondo right now.

I'm getting a little tired of people's jedi senses tuned to bait whenever I disagree. Math is math. 

This is pretty textbook baiting.  I ask for numbers to back up what you're talking about, and you respond "math is math"? 

The only equivalent between math and this thread:  they both rely upon imaginary numbers.

Oh fine. Open the textbook to page one.

In a small sample size, which should logically be the hardest time of his career he hits threes at about 3 times the rate, hits free throws faaaarrrr more efficiently, has similar rebs and steals in less minutes (which makes sense because he's taller) has a couple blocks (also possibly because he's taller) per 36 minutes is only 1 assist less, and is doing it all on the Timberwolves instead of with 3 hall of famers and a former all star point guard for a coach like Rondo has.

Then there's the whole part about how Rondo definitely didn't have stats like this his rookie year

Isn't it widely accepted that when stars come together individual stats go down?

scoring averages go down, assist rates go up.  surround rubio with the kind of finishers that Rondo has at his disposal and play him 35-40 minutes a game and i wouldn't be at all surprised if he averaged more assists per game.

I could see that happening....wonder if by the same token Rondo's scoring would jump upward on the Wolves....next thing to compare is defense (don't know Rubio's defense)

[raynman]

Pound for pound, I believe Rubio is better than Rondo.. Rajon maybe tougher and a better defender but Ricky passes better (and prettier) and is a more efficient jumpshooter.. Rondo may have been luckier to team with 3 superstars but Rubio tops him with the overall skillset.. I'm sorry to say this but who knows what would've happened to Rondo's career if KG and Ray didn't come here? He might've just turned into another Devin Harris or Mo Williams.. I'm just sayin..

[wiley]

Pound for pound, I believe Rubio is better than Rondo.. Rajon maybe tougher and a better defender but Ricky passes better (and prettier) and is a more efficient jumpshooter.. Rondo may have been luckier to team with 3 superstars but Rubio tops him with the overall skillset.. I'm sorry to say this but who knows what would've happened to Rondo's career if KG and Ray didn't come here? He might've just turned into another Devin Harris or Mo Williams.. I'm just sayin..

If you watch Rondo you can see his enormous and unique talent...there's nothing mediocre about Rajon Rondo.

[PosImpos]

Pound for pound, I believe Rubio is better than Rondo.. Rajon maybe tougher and a better defender but Ricky passes better (and prettier) and is a more efficient jumpshooter.. Rondo may have been luckier to team with 3 superstars but Rubio tops him with the overall skillset.. I'm sorry to say this but who knows what would've happened to Rondo's career if KG and Ray didn't come here? He might've just turned into another Devin Harris or Mo Williams.. I'm just sayin..

LOL @ Rondo comparison to Mo Williams.  I get what you're saying, but Rondo and Mo are such completely different players with totally opposite strengths and weaknesses that it's amusing.

[BballTim]

Looking at the numbers Rubio is better than Rondo now at a younger age...essentially

I get the sense that you're just trying to bait people, but I'll bite:  what numbers are you talking about?  Certainly not points, assists, or overall shooting percentage.

He's a better free throw shooter, and a better three point shooter.  Those are the only numbers where he's really better than Rondo right now.

I'm getting a little tired of people's jedi senses tuned to bait whenever I disagree. Math is math. 

This is pretty textbook baiting.  I ask for numbers to back up what you're talking about, and you respond "math is math"? 

The only equivalent between math and this thread:  they both rely upon imaginary numbers.

Oh fine. Open the textbook to page one.

In a small sample size, which should logically be the hardest time of his career he hits threes at about 3 times the rate, hits free throws faaaarrrr more efficiently, has similar rebs and steals in less minutes (which makes sense because he's taller) has a couple blocks (also possibly because he's taller) per 36 minutes is only 1 assist less, and is doing it all on the Timberwolves instead of with 3 hall of famers and a former all star point guard for a coach like Rondo has.

Then there's the whole part about how Rondo definitely didn't have stats like this his rookie year

Isn't it widely accepted that when stars come together individual stats go down?

scoring averages go down, assist rates go up.  surround rubio with the kind of finishers that Rondo has at his disposal and play him 35-40 minutes a game and i wouldn't be at all surprised if he averaged more assists per game.

  Do you have evidence that assist rates go up in these cases?

[Bahku]

If Rubio leads his team to a Championship in his first season as a starter, (and his defense, rebounding, physicality, willingness to take a beating, resiliency, confidence, floor vision, etc., is comparable), then I will start to consider this, (the comparison, not the trade idea) ... PG leadership and vision and success is about much more than numbers. It might be an considerable comparison if you're talking about scoring alone, but Rubio's got a long way to go to be in the same bracket as Rajon as a complete player. Great young baller, but no way would I trade Rondo for him at this point.

Um, how exactly did Rondo "lead" the Celtics to a championship?

I know you know what I meant by that, but I'll explain anyway:

He was the starting point guard, and the PG is the guy who is the "floor general" and the leader on the court ... the ball is in his hands the majority of the time, he sets up and calls most of the plays, he directs traffic on the offensive end, and generally has those responsibilities throughout the game.

Rondo in particular had an immense amount of responsibility in just his second season, with the organization having done an incredible amount of trading to acquire Ray and KG in order to give us the best chance of winning a championship.

Rarely in the history of the game has a young player been put in a position of such responsibilty so early in their career, and done so to the point of winning it all. This kid is exceptional in many ways ... ways which Rubio is a long way from proving his comparability.

[raynman]

Pound for pound, I believe Rubio is better than Rondo.. Rajon maybe tougher and a better defender but Ricky passes better (and prettier) and is a more efficient jumpshooter.. Rondo may have been luckier to team with 3 superstars but Rubio tops him with the overall skillset.. I'm sorry to say this but who knows what would've happened to Rondo's career if KG and Ray didn't come here? He might've just turned into another Devin Harris or Mo Williams.. I'm just sayin..

LOL @ Rondo comparison to Mo Williams.  I get what you're saying, but Rondo and Mo are such completely different players with totally opposite strengths and weaknesses that it's amusing.

I'm referring to Devin and Mo being good when they were with good teams (Devin in Dallas and Mo in Cleveland), and became worthless after transferring to weaker teams.. I mean didn't Mo even become an All-Star when he was playing with Lebron?

[BballTim]

Pound for pound, I believe Rubio is better than Rondo.. Rajon maybe tougher and a better defender but Ricky passes better (and prettier) and is a more efficient jumpshooter.. Rondo may have been luckier to team with 3 superstars but Rubio tops him with the overall skillset.. I'm sorry to say this but who knows what would've happened to Rondo's career if KG and Ray didn't come here? He might've just turned into another Devin Harris or Mo Williams.. I'm just sayin..

  Rondo has terrific point guard skills. Vision, passing, ballhandling, running an offense, controlling the pace of the game, finishing around the rim, defending. I doubt those skills would somehow evaporate if he had different teammates.

[PosImpos]

If Rubio leads his team to a Championship in his first season as a starter, (and his defense, rebounding, physicality, willingness to take a beating, resiliency, confidence, floor vision, etc., is comparable), then I will start to consider this, (the comparison, not the trade idea) ... PG leadership and vision and success is about much more than numbers. It might be an considerable comparison if you're talking about scoring alone, but Rubio's got a long way to go to be in the same bracket as Rajon as a complete player. Great young baller, but no way would I trade Rondo for him at this point.

Um, how exactly did Rondo "lead" the Celtics to a championship?

I know you know what I meant by that, but I'll explain anyway:

He was the starting point guard, and the PG is the guy who is the "floor general" and the leader on the court ... the ball is in his hands the majority of the time, he sets up and calls most of the plays, he directs traffic on the offensive end, and generally has those responsibilities throughout the game.

Rondo in particular had an immense amount of responsibility in just his second season, with the organization having done an incredible amount of trading to acquire Ray and KG in order to give us the best chance of winning a championship.

Rarely in the history of the game has a young player been put in a position of such responsibilty so early in their career, and done so to the point of winning it all. This kid is exceptional in many ways ... ways which Rubio is a long way from proving his comparability.

Look, what Rondo did was indeed remarkable, but I think it's seriously a stretch to say that the role he played on the '08 team meant that he "lead" the team to a championship.  He was a role-player (albeit a very solid one) on the '08 team.  He no more "led" the team to a title than Perk did.

If the Heat win the championship this year, would you say that Mario Chalmers "led" the team to a title and therefore he's got more credibility as a winning player than a guy like, say, Chris Paul, who's never even made it to the conference finals?  Of course not. 

Pointing to what a player has won in a team context is not particularly convincing evidence for whether they're better than another player or not.  The only time it's relevant, in my opinion, is when you have two players who are statistically similar who are surrounded by a similar level of talent.