Author Topic: Johnson = Brooks  (Read 8698 times)

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Re: Johnson = Brooks
« Reply #15 on: January 06, 2012, 04:10:23 PM »

Offline slamtheking

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I'm sorry, but I think most of this is just excuses cuz we dont want to admit it was a mistake.  Hindsight is 20/20, but for right now, it's looking like a huge mistake.

1. Brooks is getting a lot of time, because when he was given just a little time, he did a lot with it. He is being asked to score, but saying he's "scoring without conscience" doesnt make sense if you watch him play.  He is scoring within the offense (what little they have).  With the weapons he's shown (midrange, hesitation dribbles, floaters in the lane, 3pt range, etc), he could score 30 if he wanted to play "without conscience".  He is playing confident, but he isnt forcing anything.

2. Brooks isnt a bad defender.  That would be an easy thing to point to, as an excuse for why Doc wouldnt play him...but its just not true.  If all you see is his boxscore stats, you might think that, but he's not a bad defender. On the other side, everyone assumes JJJ will be a good defender, but thats no guarantee. In college he played against weaker competition, and has a size advantage that is gone now that he's in the league.

3. Saying it's easier on Brooks because of his position, doesnt make sense.  Its a guards league right now.  All the elite players are at the wings.  Thats who Brooks competes with every night. A half decent big would find it easier to have success in todays NBA, than a good wing player.  There's no reason a pf should be "expected" to accumulate more fouls than a wing...especially if playing against lesser players every night. Just playing the PF position doesnt mean you automatically have greater defensive responsibility.  Most teams play man...thats a 1-on-1 responsibility for everyone.  Maybe a Center that anchors the defense like Chandler/Perk/Bynum has a greater responsiblity, but a PF known for playing away from the basket like JJJ would never have any extra defensive responsibility.

The main reason Brooks is excelling and JJJ has yet to play, is that Brooks already has the physical gifts and skills to beat his peers, and JJJ doesnt.  JJJ has a great handle and shot for a PF, but he seems to be too weak.  At SF, he'd have a size or strength advantage, but questionable dribble and speed. Until either his stature or skill set develops to the point where he can fulfill all the requirements of a position, Brooks will be superior.

No matter how many minutes they both got, Brooks would come out on top this year. It was easy to criticize his game when he was just scoring on bad teams, but he did the exact same thing to use.  Unless you want to say that we're an equally weak defensive team to those he played before, I think he should be given his due credit.  So far, I think he's competing with Ricky Rubio for ROY
The one thing you've overlooked is that JJJ is behind KG and Bass on the depth chart.  He'd have to beat a HOF player and a top candidate for 6th man of the year to get on the court.  If he played any other position on this team he'd have a chance to at least compete for time against a vet bench player that's certainly 'upgradeable'. 

If we had kept Brooks, his competition would be Bradley and Moore, not exactly stiff competition there.  Too early to be evaluating this trade as a bust.

Re: Johnson = Brooks
« Reply #16 on: January 06, 2012, 04:25:41 PM »

Offline snowball

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I jumped up and down and screamed bloody murder
when the Celtics threw Brooks away. I knew it
was incredibly stupid then. I was the only one
saying so and caught flack for it.

Re: Johnson = Brooks
« Reply #17 on: January 06, 2012, 04:29:27 PM »

Offline MBunge

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Brooks might be a good one, but let's have some perspective.

He's getting 23 minutes a game for a 1-6 Nets team that's lost games by 36, 16, 7, 16, 14 and 19 points.  In other words, they really suck and NBA history is full of guys who put up stats on awful teams.  Brooks is also taking 12 shots a game, which is more than Bass and over twice as many a game as Dooling.

So, I don't think his production so far tells us much of anything and there's NO WAY he'd be putting up any kind of similar numbers if he were on Boston's roster.

Mike

Re: Johnson = Brooks
« Reply #18 on: January 06, 2012, 04:40:08 PM »

Offline csfansince60s

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Brooks might be a good one, but let's have some perspective.

He's getting 23 minutes a game for a 1-6 Nets team that's lost games by 36, 16, 7, 16, 14 and 19 points.  In other words, they really suck and NBA history is full of guys who put up stats on awful teams.  Brooks is also taking 12 shots a game, which is more than Bass and over twice as many a game as Dooling.

So, I don't think his production so far tells us much of anything and there's NO WAY he'd be putting up any kind of similar numbers if he were on Boston's roster.

Mike

Agree... Also, his PC team was 4-14 in conference and 15-17 overall last year.

Maybe he just has bad luck playing on bad teams......or maybe he has had good luck playing on bad teams. ;)

Re: Johnson = Brooks
« Reply #19 on: January 06, 2012, 04:42:04 PM »

Offline OttawaCeltic

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I jumped up and down and screamed bloody murder
when the Celtics threw Brooks away. I knew it
was incredibly stupid then. I was the only one
saying so and caught flack for it.

No joke here when I said I was severly confused by Ainge when he traded a mid-first rounder guard(Ray A had no suitable back up that time) for a late first rounder forward(eventhough we had one reliable PF at the time, we all knew Baby was going to get traded for a Big and we would've used our MLE on a Big too[Chris Wil])
Jameer an elite PG?Please, ask that to his garbage highlights.



PAUL PIERCE, NO!

Re: Johnson = Brooks
« Reply #20 on: January 06, 2012, 06:57:54 PM »

Offline Neurotic Guy

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For the most part, I dislike draft hindsight.  EVERY GM misses on players.  It's over time rather than individual drafts that matter. Ainge may have missed on Brooks, but in fact most GMs miss on taking better players at their draft position in every draft. Do you recall the GM who traded draft picks Kendrick Perkins and Marcus Banks for Dahnay Jones and Troy Bell?   That was Jerry West.

Regarding JJJ, how in the world would anyone know what to expect from this player?  Poor Avery Bradley has been raked over the coals on these pages basically because he's had the misfortune of getting minutes as he's learning.  If JJJ were sent out there now against other teams' starting or rotation players, I think he'd be looking like a rookie.  Yet, by not playing, he has a host of fans on Cblog who think he'll be a good NBA player. 

Re: Johnson = Brooks
« Reply #21 on: January 06, 2012, 07:28:58 PM »

Offline bruinsandceltics

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I'd still much prefer JJJ. Congrats to Marshon looks like he could be a nice player for a long time in the NBA. But JJJ has a ton of untapped potential and I'm not willing to give up on him because he isn't making an impact in his first year. It is also much harder to find get impact big men in this league. He was a late first round pick for a reason. If he was ready to make an impact immediately he would have been drafted in the Lotto.

Lets wait, let JJJ learn under KG and put on weight like Greg Monroe did in Detroit.

Re: Johnson = Brooks
« Reply #22 on: January 07, 2012, 10:25:57 AM »

Offline snowball

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Marshon Brooks would have been a better choice
for the long term. He is a G/F switch hitter.
He can play both positions well. After we lose
Ray and Paul, Brooks would still be young.
Brooks talent was on display locally, Danny
drafted him and threw away a rare gem.

Re: Johnson = Brooks
« Reply #23 on: January 09, 2012, 10:40:53 PM »

Offline dtrader

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Brooks might be a good one, but let's have some perspective.

He's getting 23 minutes a game for a 1-6 Nets team that's lost games by 36, 16, 7, 16, 14 and 19 points.  In other words, they really suck and NBA history is full of guys who put up stats on awful teams.  Brooks is also taking 12 shots a game, which is more than Bass and over twice as many a game as Dooling.

So, I don't think his production so far tells us much of anything and there's NO WAY he'd be putting up any kind of similar numbers if he were on Boston's roster.

Mike

He's taking a lot of shots because he's getting a lot of shots...because he's creating.  He's not out there forcing anything.  The fact that his team is losing doesnt say anything about him (except maybe that he cant carry a terrible team on his back as a rookie).  He's balling...and playing defense.  Our "big 3" spent their entire careers putting up big stats on awful teams before coming together.  I dont think anyone is saying that diminishes them.

Sidenote...he had 19pts-10rebs tonight.  Rubio dropped 14 assists. l wouldnt put kyrie or anyone else with those 2 for ROY so far.

Re: Johnson = Brooks
« Reply #24 on: January 09, 2012, 10:47:34 PM »

Offline raynman

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Brooks might be a good one, but let's have some perspective.

He's getting 23 minutes a game for a 1-6 Nets team that's lost games by 36, 16, 7, 16, 14 and 19 points.  In other words, they really suck and NBA history is full of guys who put up stats on awful teams.  Brooks is also taking 12 shots a game, which is more than Bass and over twice as many a game as Dooling.

So, I don't think his production so far tells us much of anything and there's NO WAY he'd be putting up any kind of similar numbers if he were on Boston's roster.

Mike

He's taking a lot of shots because he's getting a lot of shots...because he's creating.  He's not out there forcing anything.  The fact that his team is losing doesnt say anything about him (except maybe that he cant carry a terrible team on his back as a rookie).  He's balling...and playing defense.  Our "big 3" spent their entire careers putting up big stats on awful teams before coming together.  I dont think anyone is saying that diminishes them.

Sidenote...he had 19pts-10rebs tonight.  Rubio dropped 14 assists. l wouldnt put kyrie or anyone else with those 2 for ROY so far.
He may not have too much opportunities here because of Ray and Pierce but the fact is, the kid is just gifted offensively! - a rarity on the Celtics bench since the big three formed.. If not now, then probably next year he'd shine on this team..
If, somehow, Marshon wins Rookie of the Year, will Danny Ainge be bangin his head on the wall? I'm just sayin..

Re: Johnson = Brooks
« Reply #25 on: January 09, 2012, 11:03:05 PM »

Offline Celtics18

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Brooks might be a good one, but let's have some perspective.

He's getting 23 minutes a game for a 1-6 Nets team that's lost games by 36, 16, 7, 16, 14 and 19 points.  In other words, they really suck and NBA history is full of guys who put up stats on awful teams.  Brooks is also taking 12 shots a game, which is more than Bass and over twice as many a game as Dooling.

So, I don't think his production so far tells us much of anything and there's NO WAY he'd be putting up any kind of similar numbers if he were on Boston's roster.

Mike

He's taking a lot of shots because he's getting a lot of shots...because he's creating.  He's not out there forcing anything.  The fact that his team is losing doesnt say anything about him (except maybe that he cant carry a terrible team on his back as a rookie).  He's balling...and playing defense.  Our "big 3" spent their entire careers putting up big stats on awful teams before coming together.  I dont think anyone is saying that diminishes them.

Sidenote...he had 19pts-10rebs tonight.  Rubio dropped 14 assists. l wouldnt put kyrie or anyone else with those 2 for ROY so far.

This is getting annoying. I just looked at the box score, and I see that he even dropped two dimes against only one turnover while shooting 50% from the field.

Darn you, Marshon!! Can you please hit your rookie slump soon so that we can stop hearing about the awful blunder that drafting JaJuan Johnson was.

And, Doc can you please start giving JJ some minutes, and JJ if you get those minutes, will you at least put up a fight, give us something--anything--to ooh and aah and look forward to the future about.

I'm tired of hearing about Marshon Brooks.  I live in Providence (never been a Friars fan, though.  Rhody Rams, all the way!!!), and I hadn't even really heard of this kid until close to draft day. 

I officially loathe Marshon Brooks.  He is the enemy.
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Re: Johnson = Brooks
« Reply #26 on: January 09, 2012, 11:25:46 PM »

Offline Inside-Out

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Danny didn't know he was going to end up with Bass, too.  Next season:

Rondo
Pierce
JGreen
Bass
DHoward


Need the bench scorer to relieve pressure on Pierce and Green.  Brooks would've been perfect.

Will JJJ be ready for rotation minutes next season?  Brooks will.



BTW, add in Bradley, Ray, KG, and Steimsma off the bench and I like that team quite a bit.

Re: Johnson = Brooks
« Reply #27 on: January 10, 2012, 12:06:24 AM »

Offline Yoki_IsTheName

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I'm sorry, but I think most of this is just excuses cuz we dont want to admit it was a mistake.  Hindsight is 20/20, but for right now, it's looking like a huge mistake.

1. Brooks is getting a lot of time, because when he was given just a little time, he did a lot with it. He is being asked to score, but saying he's "scoring without conscience" doesnt make sense if you watch him play.  He is scoring within the offense (what little they have).  With the weapons he's shown (midrange, hesitation dribbles, floaters in the lane, 3pt range, etc), he could score 30 if he wanted to play "without conscience".  He is playing confident, but he isnt forcing anything.

2. Brooks isnt a bad defender.  That would be an easy thing to point to, as an excuse for why Doc wouldnt play him...but its just not true.  If all you see is his boxscore stats, you might think that, but he's not a bad defender. On the other side, everyone assumes JJJ will be a good defender, but thats no guarantee. In college he played against weaker competition, and has a size advantage that is gone now that he's in the league.

3. Saying it's easier on Brooks because of his position, doesnt make sense.  Its a guards league right now.  All the elite players are at the wings.  Thats who Brooks competes with every night. A half decent big would find it easier to have success in todays NBA, than a good wing player.  There's no reason a pf should be "expected" to accumulate more fouls than a wing...especially if playing against lesser players every night. Just playing the PF position doesnt mean you automatically have greater defensive responsibility.  Most teams play man...thats a 1-on-1 responsibility for everyone.  Maybe a Center that anchors the defense like Chandler/Perk/Bynum has a greater responsiblity, but a PF known for playing away from the basket like JJJ would never have any extra defensive responsibility.

The main reason Brooks is excelling and JJJ has yet to play, is that Brooks already has the physical gifts and skills to beat his peers, and JJJ doesnt.  JJJ has a great handle and shot for a PF, but he seems to be too weak.  At SF, he'd have a size or strength advantage, but questionable dribble and speed. Until either his stature or skill set develops to the point where he can fulfill all the requirements of a position, Brooks will be superior.

No matter how many minutes they both got, Brooks would come out on top this year. It was easy to criticize his game when he was just scoring on bad teams, but he did the exact same thing to use.  Unless you want to say that we're an equally weak defensive team to those he played before, I think he should be given his due credit.  So far, I think he's competing with Ricky Rubio for ROY
The one thing you've overlooked is that JJJ is behind KG and Bass on the depth chart.  He'd have to beat a HOF player and a top candidate for 6th man of the year to get on the court.  If he played any other position on this team he'd have a chance to at least compete for time against a vet bench player that's certainly 'upgradeable'. 

If we had kept Brooks, his competition would be Bradley and Moore, not exactly stiff competition there.  Too early to be evaluating this trade as a bust.

And this is why I think this trade was a mistake from the beginning.

Even if we did not have Bass, JJJ would still need to play behind KG and Baby and for that matter, Wilcox. With only Bradley and Sasha, we have no wing depth that is productive. Brooks, with our championship window really small, could've helped us NOW.

With his ability to create and make shots for his own, it can give Ray and Paul some breathers and we will not miss anything on scoring. If he can play against the first units, he may very well beat 2nd units. He could give us 10-14ppg off the bench in 20 minutes no problem.

Everybody says Doc doesn't play rookies, I bet he will play MarShon with his skills and what he can do.

And as to he can't defend, I don't know, I think has the stuff to become a solid defender with the right coaching.

I'm not throwing JJJ out, I just think this is a mistake.
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Re: Johnson = Brooks
« Reply #28 on: January 10, 2012, 02:41:58 AM »

Offline clover

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Early returns suggest it was a mistake.  The C's could really use a MarShon Brooks, who together with Bass would give the 2nd unit real scoring.  It's early, but so far into his rookie year, Brooks is shooting a higher FG% than Ray Allen has shot over his career.

If 3J were really ready to contribute, the C's could find room for him by moving Bass and/or KG to center for some minutes. By the time KG was 3J's age he was putting up almost 20/10 with high block, assist and steal numbers for his position.

Re: Johnson = Brooks
« Reply #29 on: January 10, 2012, 05:10:57 AM »

Offline Yoki_IsTheName

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Early returns suggest it was a mistake.  The C's could really use a MarShon Brooks, who together with Bass would give the 2nd unit real scoring.  It's early, but so far into his rookie year, Brooks is shooting a higher FG% than Ray Allen has shot over his career.

If 3J were really ready to contribute, the C's could find room for him by moving Bass and/or KG to center for some minutes. By the time KG was 3J's age he was putting up almost 20/10 with high block, assist and steal numbers for his position.

You got it point for point there. The fact that there was plenty of big man to sign for cheap and no scorer is why we missed out on this trade. JJJ has potential to be a solid player don't get me wrong, but Brooks could be helping us right now. The window for the old Big 3 is closing and it could use all the help. They get nothing from JJJ who just sits on the bench right now where they could be getting 10-12ppg from Brooks in 20 minutes of playing time.

And everybody is saying JJJ hasn't played yet. If he's that good, like MarShon, he'll get playing time. MarShon is getting a lot of time in NJ because of what he can do that Morrow and Stevenson can't, and trust me Doc would put him in the 2nd unit because of that.
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