Author Topic: Celtics should rebuild now  (Read 22333 times)

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Re: Celtics should rebuild now
« Reply #30 on: December 20, 2011, 07:47:21 PM »

Offline RyNye

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Good article on the subjcet.

Quote
Here are basically Arnovitz's points:

-Tanking is better than being a playoff team and losing in the first round (or even in the second)
-Gutted teams are easier to turn into championship-caliber teams than marginal playoff teams
-the Nuggets are basically a 6-8 seed at best, they should have tanked instead of signing nene and afflalo

The last point I'm going to return to later. First, let's talk about the other two points. I kind of did this the other day in my article on the Eric Gordon trade -- "rebuilding" is basically the NBA management playing the hamster running endlessly in the wheel. There are two key points:

The playoffs are pure marginal gross profit for an NBA team. This is because players are paid for the regular season, but beyond a per-diem, they don't get paid for the post-season.
Being the worst team in the league does NOT, in fact, offer very good opportunities to land the coveted "super-star" player. Ask Chicago, who waited about 10 years to land Rose. Or Minnesota, who have NEVER gotten the first pick (their management is terrible but not responsible for this bit of bad luck). The fact is that the #1 overall pick is about 4-6 times more likely to land a championship player than other lottery picks. Yet your chance of the #1 pick is very low, even if you are the worst team in the league.

To point one, if you use the NBA's total payroll to estimate how much a win *costs*, it works out to about $1.5 million. This means that any playoff win is worth at least that much (likely more because of increased attendance). Winning a first round is probably easily worth $10+ million to an NBA franchise. Add to that the fact that a playoff team earns a lot more in regular season revenue than a lottery team and the difference between a lottery team and a playoff team is, financially speaking, huge. As long as you don't overpay for your talent (*cough* knickerbockers *cough*) this is likely to be worth a hell of a lot more than the revenue sharing check the NBA sends you each year, especially once the salary floor moves up to 90% of the cap, which will cost those cap-space-saving teams multiple millions per year in tax payment reductions. If the NBA's revenue sharing plan is really lucrative enough to make this assumption false, then the Lakers, Knicks, and Heat did a pretty poor job negotiating with the small-market teams. In other words, fielding a lottery team costs a ****-load of money.

To point two, I just don't see the big advantage that the team stocked with cap room and lottery picks has over some other team that just needs "one more piece" to contend. Let's look at those middle-of-the-road teams that Arnovitz dreads so much and see how many of them managed to acquire a superstar:

The Lakers have done it so often it's practically their business model. Yes, I know, free agents want to go there, but many of their players came in trade or the draft. They were about a 45-win team when they got Shaq. Kobe was drafted. They got Pau for a song (remember how the Lakers were like an 8th seed team with just Kobe? Yeah, Pau is that good).
The Trailblazers were a middling team when they landed Oden; they were unlucky that he's not healthy, but in the few games he's played, he's played like a premier big man.
Remember Detroit landing Rasheed Wallace in his prime?
The perennial first-round-losers Minnesota (the very definition of the type of team that Arnovitz dreads) grabbed both Cassell and Sprewell in 2003 for basically a bunch of expiring deals, and won 61 games in a ridiculously tough western conference. If Cassell had not gone down, I'm about certain they would have defeated the Lakers that year -- the Kings team they beat in the semis was a better team than that Laker team. Admittedly the Wolves had some luck that year with Wally's injury, he was terrible but got lots of minutes, but his injury forced management to play the fantastic Fred Hoiberg lots of minutes instead.

The Spurs lucked into Tim Duncan when they already had David Robinson, but for the 3rd ring, Ginobli and Parker were pretty instrumental, and they got those players through shrewd drafting. Perhaps they were just flukes, but the fact that the Spurs also grabbed the amazing DeJuan Blair as well makes me suspect otherwise.

Remember the Rockets grabbing Clyde Drexler? Yeah, that was a good move.

Remember the Heat trading for Shaq? Yeah, that was smart too.

Now quick, name six "rebuilding teams" that went from zero to contender without luckboxing the #1 pick. What I find especially funny is everyone claiming that they want to use "the OKC model". You know what you need to use that model? Sam ****ing Presti. The OKC model is nothing special, it's just "being better at evaluating talent than all the conventional-wisdom pundits on the other teams". The reason it works is because a) Presti is smart and b) there are teams like the Celtics run by GMs dumb enough to think that Jeff Green is good who are willing to trade with the smart Sam Presti. It should be immediately obvious why this is not going to work for everyone else.

I agree with his points. Don't blow it up just to tank; it probably won't help.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2011, 07:55:31 PM by RyNye »

Re: Celtics should rebuild now
« Reply #31 on: December 20, 2011, 08:02:22 PM »

Offline D Dub

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The Celtics as presently comprised are doomed to a first or second round exit in the playoffs this season.  They have no real shot at a title without major injuries to other contending teams. 

  This is fairly nonsensical. If the Celts are healthy they're clearly contenders.


 
I don't see the Celtics beating the Bulls or Heat if they are fully healthy.  Which means a second round exit and a wasted season.

I'll take a 2nd round exit over watching Marcus Banks and Gerald Green crank out losing streaks all year then having to debate Roy vs Foye in May...


Re: Celtics should rebuild now
« Reply #32 on: December 20, 2011, 08:14:23 PM »

Offline greenhead85

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Depends on how rebuilding is defined. Right now, rebuilding can be done thru this current roster. All Doc has to do is make the transition of giving more playing time to players whose names are not Pierce, KG, Ray and JO. With Rondo as the main piece for rebuilding, these 4 players are the best supporting cast for the young players we have right now. Unless rebuilding is defined by others as scrapping the entire roster to find a new franchise player and assemble the roster from thereon.

Re: Celtics should rebuild now
« Reply #33 on: December 20, 2011, 08:14:56 PM »

Offline Smokeeye123

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I don't know about you guys, but I'd rather have a young team with budding/developing players who might turn into stars than a team that will get knocked out in the first or second round.

Losing sucks, but so does having an old team that will just get bounced early in the playoffs.

Re: Celtics should rebuild now
« Reply #34 on: December 20, 2011, 08:24:56 PM »

Offline LooseCannon

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I don't know about you guys, but I'd rather have a young team with budding/developing players who might turn into stars than a team that will get knocked out in the first or second round.

I'd rather have a team that will have an early playoff exit instead of going for youth for the sake of youth.  I don't want to dump KG (who I believe will still perform at a borderline all-star level this season) if I'm just going to replace him with a young player whose upside is the next JJ Hickson.
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Re: Celtics should rebuild now
« Reply #35 on: December 20, 2011, 08:36:28 PM »

Offline Smokeeye123

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I don't know about you guys, but I'd rather have a young team with budding/developing players who might turn into stars than a team that will get knocked out in the first or second round.

I'd rather have a team that will have an early playoff exit instead of going for youth for the sake of youth.  I don't want to dump KG (who I believe will still perform at a borderline all-star level this season) if I'm just going to replace him with a young player whose upside is the next JJ Hickson.

Really? It's all about 18. I either want to go all the way or tank to go go all the way. No in between.

Re: Celtics should rebuild now
« Reply #36 on: December 20, 2011, 08:56:38 PM »

Offline PosImpos

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Good article on the subjcet.

Quote
Here are basically Arnovitz's points:

-Tanking is better than being a playoff team and losing in the first round (or even in the second)
-Gutted teams are easier to turn into championship-caliber teams than marginal playoff teams
-the Nuggets are basically a 6-8 seed at best, they should have tanked instead of signing nene and afflalo

The last point I'm going to return to later. First, let's talk about the other two points. I kind of did this the other day in my article on the Eric Gordon trade -- "rebuilding" is basically the NBA management playing the hamster running endlessly in the wheel. There are two key points:

The playoffs are pure marginal gross profit for an NBA team. This is because players are paid for the regular season, but beyond a per-diem, they don't get paid for the post-season.
Being the worst team in the league does NOT, in fact, offer very good opportunities to land the coveted "super-star" player. Ask Chicago, who waited about 10 years to land Rose. Or Minnesota, who have NEVER gotten the first pick (their management is terrible but not responsible for this bit of bad luck). The fact is that the #1 overall pick is about 4-6 times more likely to land a championship player than other lottery picks. Yet your chance of the #1 pick is very low, even if you are the worst team in the league.

To point one, if you use the NBA's total payroll to estimate how much a win *costs*, it works out to about $1.5 million. This means that any playoff win is worth at least that much (likely more because of increased attendance). Winning a first round is probably easily worth $10+ million to an NBA franchise. Add to that the fact that a playoff team earns a lot more in regular season revenue than a lottery team and the difference between a lottery team and a playoff team is, financially speaking, huge. As long as you don't overpay for your talent (*cough* knickerbockers *cough*) this is likely to be worth a hell of a lot more than the revenue sharing check the NBA sends you each year, especially once the salary floor moves up to 90% of the cap, which will cost those cap-space-saving teams multiple millions per year in tax payment reductions. If the NBA's revenue sharing plan is really lucrative enough to make this assumption false, then the Lakers, Knicks, and Heat did a pretty poor job negotiating with the small-market teams. In other words, fielding a lottery team costs a ****-load of money.

To point two, I just don't see the big advantage that the team stocked with cap room and lottery picks has over some other team that just needs "one more piece" to contend. Let's look at those middle-of-the-road teams that Arnovitz dreads so much and see how many of them managed to acquire a superstar:

The Lakers have done it so often it's practically their business model. Yes, I know, free agents want to go there, but many of their players came in trade or the draft. They were about a 45-win team when they got Shaq. Kobe was drafted. They got Pau for a song (remember how the Lakers were like an 8th seed team with just Kobe? Yeah, Pau is that good).
The Trailblazers were a middling team when they landed Oden; they were unlucky that he's not healthy, but in the few games he's played, he's played like a premier big man.
Remember Detroit landing Rasheed Wallace in his prime?
The perennial first-round-losers Minnesota (the very definition of the type of team that Arnovitz dreads) grabbed both Cassell and Sprewell in 2003 for basically a bunch of expiring deals, and won 61 games in a ridiculously tough western conference. If Cassell had not gone down, I'm about certain they would have defeated the Lakers that year -- the Kings team they beat in the semis was a better team than that Laker team. Admittedly the Wolves had some luck that year with Wally's injury, he was terrible but got lots of minutes, but his injury forced management to play the fantastic Fred Hoiberg lots of minutes instead.

The Spurs lucked into Tim Duncan when they already had David Robinson, but for the 3rd ring, Ginobli and Parker were pretty instrumental, and they got those players through shrewd drafting. Perhaps they were just flukes, but the fact that the Spurs also grabbed the amazing DeJuan Blair as well makes me suspect otherwise.

Remember the Rockets grabbing Clyde Drexler? Yeah, that was a good move.

Remember the Heat trading for Shaq? Yeah, that was smart too.

Now quick, name six "rebuilding teams" that went from zero to contender without luckboxing the #1 pick. What I find especially funny is everyone claiming that they want to use "the OKC model". You know what you need to use that model? Sam ****ing Presti. The OKC model is nothing special, it's just "being better at evaluating talent than all the conventional-wisdom pundits on the other teams". The reason it works is because a) Presti is smart and b) there are teams like the Celtics run by GMs dumb enough to think that Jeff Green is good who are willing to trade with the smart Sam Presti. It should be immediately obvious why this is not going to work for everyone else.

I agree with his points. Don't blow it up just to tank; it probably won't help.

the fact that tanking is not a guaranteed way to get back to the top doesn't change the fact that it's also the most likely way to get back there.

as the article points out, the financial side of things is really the main determining factor.  can your team take the financial hit of intentionally being bad for a few years?  many teams can't, which is why they maintain the status quo even when their roster is clearly not good enough to be better than middle-of-the-road.

boston's owners want to win and they have deep pockets, so hopefully they're willing to be bad for as long as it takes to get the assets required to get good again.

also, i wholeheartedly disagree with the assertion that Sam Presti is just so much smarter than everybody else and Danny Ainge is dumb.  that last bit of the article smacks of bias.  Danny Ainge is not David Kahn.  the Perk trade may not look great in hindsight, but there's a reason that hindsight is 20/20.  it was a gamble at the time, but a reasonable one, given Perk's impending free agent status and Ainge's desire not to lock up long term cap space on role players (yes, Perk is a role player). 

Presti is smart, but his model is possible to follow if you have good talent evaluators in your front office; whatever anybody wants to say about him, I don't think you can argue that Danny is not a good talent evaluator.  I trust Danny to make good decisions when the team is drafting high again.
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Re: Celtics should rebuild now
« Reply #37 on: December 20, 2011, 10:01:04 PM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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No way does Danny break this up yet.   Doc and Danny think we have a legit chance to win if we stay healthy if you believe all the talk.  This might happen prior to the trade deadline if we are doing poorly but otherwise I do not see it happening.

Re: Celtics should rebuild now
« Reply #38 on: December 21, 2011, 04:21:07 AM »

Offline LooseCannon

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I don't know about you guys, but I'd rather have a young team with budding/developing players who might turn into stars than a team that will get knocked out in the first or second round.

I'd rather have a team that will have an early playoff exit instead of going for youth for the sake of youth.  I don't want to dump KG (who I believe will still perform at a borderline all-star level this season) if I'm just going to replace him with a young player whose upside is the next JJ Hickson.

Really? It's all about 18. I either want to go all the way or tank to go go all the way. No in between.

I can see possible paths to being a contender in 2012-2013 with KG and/or RA still as Celtics, without some crazy scenario where they get traded and come back as free agents.

Right now, I think the best strategy is to stand pat, save perhaps for filling an empty roster spot with a center on a one-year contract, and see how things go, then re-assess and go from there.  It's premature to go into full-on rebuilding mode.  Most people are focused on cap space as creating room to sign a free agent.  It's also an opportunity to acquire players through trade without having to balance salaries.  I foresee some teams willing to dump useful players in the future to avoid the increasing punitive luxury tax.
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Re: Celtics should rebuild now
« Reply #39 on: December 21, 2011, 07:44:45 AM »

Offline CelticsFanNC

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  Personally I don't think the Celtics have a legitimate shot at winning #18 this season with this roster as currently constituted.  To me everything needed to go perfectly for that to happen and losing Green means everything already isn't going to go perfectly.

  With that said, it is still way too early to blow it up and start rebuilding.  This season is going to be very unpredictable.  Injuries are going to happen to other teams as well as the Celtics.   Ainge has to wait it out and see what things look like at the trading deadline before doing anything that breaks up this core even if it is probably too old to truly compete for a title.  If after 30+ game it looks like we have no shot then he could do something if it brings back a quality return that sets us up better in the future whether that is a young player or two or a draft pick.  If we clearly look like we have no shot at that point then I would make everyone available for the right price.

Re: Celtics should rebuild now
« Reply #40 on: December 28, 2011, 11:14:51 AM »

Offline Smokeeye123

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I think the Celtic's keep Rondo, trade up in the draft for possibly a low teens pick, and sign either Kevin Love or Gerald Wallace.

Re: Celtics should rebuild now
« Reply #41 on: December 28, 2011, 12:47:22 PM »

Offline clover

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I think the Celtic's keep Rondo, trade up in the draft for possibly a low teens pick, and sign either Kevin Love or Gerald Wallace.

Interesting middle way.

Re: Celtics should rebuild now
« Reply #42 on: December 28, 2011, 12:52:14 PM »

Offline Lord of Mikawa

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I think the Celtic's keep Rondo, trade up in the draft for possibly a low teens pick, and sign either Kevin Love or Gerald Wallace.
I say getting Kevin Love has to be a top 5 priority for the Celtics in the off season.
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Re: Celtics should rebuild now
« Reply #43 on: December 28, 2011, 12:52:21 PM »

Offline clover

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 Personally I don't think the Celtics have a legitimate shot at winning #18 this season with this roster as currently constituted.  To me everything needed to go perfectly for that to happen and losing Green means everything already isn't going to go perfectly.

  With that said, it is still way too early to blow it up and start rebuilding.  This season is going to be very unpredictable.  Injuries are going to happen to other teams as well as the Celtics.   Ainge has to wait it out and see what things look like at the trading deadline before doing anything that breaks up this core even if it is probably too old to truly compete for a title.  If after 30+ game it looks like we have no shot then he could do something if it brings back a quality return that sets us up better in the future whether that is a young player or two or a draft pick.  If we clearly look like we have no shot at that point then I would make everyone available for the right price.

I think Danny's got to be open to the right opportunities even now, though they may well not come.

Re: Celtics should rebuild now
« Reply #44 on: December 28, 2011, 12:55:36 PM »

Offline Evantime34

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I think we end up renouncing KG and Ray  if they decide to come back for the vet min awesome.

Next we make max offers to one of Gordon, Hibbert or Love.

We try to pry a big salaried player from a rebuilding team for a first and a a huge TPE. Some Targets could include Josh Smith, Al Jefferson.

Best Possible Outcome:
1. Rondo
2. Gordon
3. Green
4. Smith
5. Maybe a bulked up JJJ or Bass

That team would be young athletic and pretty good.
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