Lets just trade the whole team for Chris Paul

[Evantime34]

Paul is clearly better than Rondo, however the extent to which he is better is up for debate. I don't think Paul is Green and two firsts better than Rondo.

I think people tend to lean on stats too much. Playing with different teams, personnel, etc. brings different results/stats. What would Paul do while playing with guys like Ray, PP, & KG ?  IMO, Paul is hands down the better player.  No question.

If you can land him with the Green combination, you got to pull the trigger.  If I'm guessing, I think Ainge lands Paul & replaces Green with Battier.  Just a hunch.  Not sure how it gets done though.  We'll see.

I agree with all this but the two first in addition to Green bothers me a little bit. If CP3 leaves then those picks could help in the rebuilding process.

[Interceptor]

I agree with all this but the two first in addition to Green bothers me a little bit. If CP3 leaves then those picks could help in the rebuilding process.

Well, so does a big pile of cap space, which is what we'd have with only Rondo, PP, and rookie contracts on the books.

[bbd24]

Paul is clearly better than Rondo, however the extent to which he is better is up for debate. I don't think Paul is Green and two firsts better than Rondo.

I think people tend to lean on stats too much. Playing with different teams, personnel, etc. brings different results/stats. What would Paul do while playing with guys like Ray, PP, & KG ?  IMO, Paul is hands down the better player.  No question.

If you can land him with the Green combination, you got to pull the trigger.  If I'm guessing, I think Ainge lands Paul & replaces Green with Battier.  Just a hunch.  Not sure how it gets done though.  We'll see.

I agree with all this but the two first in addition to Green bothers me a little bit. If CP3 leaves then those picks could help in the rebuilding process.

I think we all miss the big picture in all of this because we sit in on the outside of everything.  It's all speculation.

I do know Ainge loves Paul.  Bottom line.  He wants the player so he'll give up a lot to get him (Paul Pierce rumored trade when Paul came out).  I also think he believes it gives them a better chance at adding the best big man in the game, Dwight Howard (next year).  With Paul & Doc as recruiters, and a pile of cap space, that's a pretty good indication that the Celts will be right there when that situation arises.

Add back the vets at a convenient price, & you're looking at a stacked roster once again. With your Battier types thrown in at the backup slots.

Ability to win now, & ability to win later.  This could be a huge deal by just getting him to Boston.  Just don't know yet.

[kozlodoev]

Remember when half of this blog (including me) was up in arms against the Garnett trade, because Al Jefferson was the greatest thing since sliced bread?

Well, I've learned my lesson.

Jefferson looked so good cause he played on a horrible team so he got a lot of minutes and touches. It's easier for a guy to put up great numbers on a bad team. Rondo has put up great numbers on a title contending team. Very big difference.

Yes, because playing with Pierce, Garnett, and Allen makes it very difficult to put up great assist numbers...

 

[BballTim]

I think your over emphasis on shots at the rim is missing the larger picture. For one it could be a deliberate decision of the strucure of the offense by the coaches as much as it is inherent differences in the PGs games.

Another point is that Rondo takes 2 less 3s and 3 less free throws per game than Rondo. That easily accounts for the much of the at the rim difference.

But that's not a bad thing, CP3 is a much more efficient scorer and diverse scoring threat because he can get to the line (and make them at a high percentage) and also hit threes.

  I don't know why a coach would want to emphasize jump shots over shots at the rim, but I suppose anything's possible. And a large amount of CP3's free throws aren't from shooting fouls.

The top ten teams at generating shots at the rim

1. Denver
2. Toronto
3. Memphis
4. Charlotte
5. LA Clippers
6. Chicago
7. Detroit
8. Utah Jazz
9. GS Warriors
10. Boston

I guess there are 9 point guards better than Rondo with the likes of Mike COnley, Chsuncey Billups, Rodney Stuckey, Jerryd Bayless etc...

  Sigh. Rondo's tied for 8th in baskets at the rim and he's 2nd in assists at the rim. The only point guards in the list that are ahead of Rondo in *either* category are Rose and Stuckey, but in scoring at the rim. Stuckey's not among the leaders in assists at all. Rose's combined points and assists at the rim beat Rondo's by .1 per game, but he plays slightly more minutes and at a slightly faster pace so it's a wash.

Also, if you look at shots 3-9 feet (where you can factor in Paul's deadly floater) Paul is in the top ten in makes and attempts while Rondo isnt in the top 30 in either.

Also, if you look at assists of baskets less than ten feet, Paul is in the top 6 while Rondo is 22nd.

Dunks and layups arent the only high percentage shots.

  No, there are also three pointers. NO made 65% of their shots at the rim last year, and 38% of their shots in the 3-9 feet range. I guess we differ on our opinion of what's high percentage and what isn't.

[BballTim]

Until someone can show me how Rondo creates more points when he is on the floor vs. Paul (since the numbers we have seen up to now points the other way) I have to believe the Celtics offense will be better with Paul.

Chris Paul 15.8ppg 9.8 assists per game
Rajon Rondo 10.6ppg 11.2 assists per game

So Chris Paul generates, on average, in one game, at least 35.4 points.
Rajon Rondo generates 33 points.

  By the way, you can see the difference in production between players and their opponents on 82games. Between points and assists CP3 generates 12 points a game more than his opponent in the same number of possessions. If you counted assists as possessions, he's generating 12 more points in 4 more possessions. Those are very good numbers.

  Rondo generates 8 more points than his opponent, but he does so using 6.6 possessions *less* than his opponents. If you count assists as posessions, he generates those 8 points on the same amount of possessions. So, also very good, lower usage but in terms of efficiency he probably wins his matchup by a little more than CP3 does.

Opponents production is heavily influenced by team defensive strength. New Orleans had a defensive effiency of 105, good but only a little better than league average of 107.

The Celtics had a defensive efficiency of 100, tied with the Chicago Bulls for first in the entire NBA.

  Go offense only then. If you don't count assists as possessions, Rondo generates 42 points on 18 poss, 2.35 ppp.  CP3 generates 47 points on 21.3, or 2.21 ppp. Count assists as possessions, Rondo's ppp drops to 1.3, CP3 goes to 1.37. So, on offense, pretty equal.

[Greenbean]

I think your over emphasis on shots at the rim is missing the larger picture. For one it could be a deliberate decision of the strucure of the offense by the coaches as much as it is inherent differences in the PGs games.

Another point is that Rondo takes 2 less 3s and 3 less free throws per game than Rondo. That easily accounts for the much of the at the rim difference.

But that's not a bad thing, CP3 is a much more efficient scorer and diverse scoring threat because he can get to the line (and make them at a high percentage) and also hit threes.

  I don't know why a coach would want to emphasize jump shots over shots at the rim, but I suppose anything's possible. And a large amount of CP3's free throws aren't from shooting fouls.

The top ten teams at generating shots at the rim

1. Denver
2. Toronto
3. Memphis
4. Charlotte
5. LA Clippers
6. Chicago
7. Detroit
8. Utah Jazz
9. GS Warriors
10. Boston

I guess there are 9 point guards better than Rondo with the likes of Mike COnley, Chsuncey Billups, Rodney Stuckey, Jerryd Bayless etc...

  Sigh. Rondo's tied for 8th in baskets at the rim and he's 2nd in assists at the rim. The only point guards in the list that are ahead of Rondo in *either* category are Rose and Stuckey, but in scoring at the rim. Stuckey's not among the leaders in assists at all. Rose's combined points and assists at the rim beat Rondo's by .1 per game, but he plays slightly more minutes and at a slightly faster pace so it's a wash.

Also, if you look at shots 3-9 feet (where you can factor in Paul's deadly floater) Paul is in the top ten in makes and attempts while Rondo isnt in the top 30 in either.

Also, if you look at assists of baskets less than ten feet, Paul is in the top 6 while Rondo is 22nd.

Dunks and layups arent the only high percentage shots.

  No, there are also three pointers. NO made 65% of their shots at the rim last year, and 38% of their shots in the 3-9 feet range. I guess we differ on our opinion of what's high percentage and what isn't.

You were correlating point guard play with team makes and attempts near the rim. That was your original argument that if Paul was on the Celts , Boston would be near the bottom of the league in shots at the rim. I am just pointing out that the point guard is not the only indicator of shots at the rim. Look at those teams.
You cant ignore all the other players on the team and the style of offense.


Further more, shots at the rim is not an indicator of success as Dallas was next to last in the league in that category.
 

[BballTim]

I think your over emphasis on shots at the rim is missing the larger picture. For one it could be a deliberate decision of the strucure of the offense by the coaches as much as it is inherent differences in the PGs games.

Another point is that Rondo takes 2 less 3s and 3 less free throws per game than Rondo. That easily accounts for the much of the at the rim difference.

But that's not a bad thing, CP3 is a much more efficient scorer and diverse scoring threat because he can get to the line (and make them at a high percentage) and also hit threes.

  I don't know why a coach would want to emphasize jump shots over shots at the rim, but I suppose anything's possible. And a large amount of CP3's free throws aren't from shooting fouls.

The top ten teams at generating shots at the rim

1. Denver
2. Toronto
3. Memphis
4. Charlotte
5. LA Clippers
6. Chicago
7. Detroit
8. Utah Jazz
9. GS Warriors
10. Boston

I guess there are 9 point guards better than Rondo with the likes of Mike COnley, Chsuncey Billups, Rodney Stuckey, Jerryd Bayless etc...

  Sigh. Rondo's tied for 8th in baskets at the rim and he's 2nd in assists at the rim. The only point guards in the list that are ahead of Rondo in *either* category are Rose and Stuckey, but in scoring at the rim. Stuckey's not among the leaders in assists at all. Rose's combined points and assists at the rim beat Rondo's by .1 per game, but he plays slightly more minutes and at a slightly faster pace so it's a wash.

Also, if you look at shots 3-9 feet (where you can factor in Paul's deadly floater) Paul is in the top ten in makes and attempts while Rondo isnt in the top 30 in either.

Also, if you look at assists of baskets less than ten feet, Paul is in the top 6 while Rondo is 22nd.

Dunks and layups arent the only high percentage shots.

  No, there are also three pointers. NO made 65% of their shots at the rim last year, and 38% of their shots in the 3-9 feet range. I guess we differ on our opinion of what's high percentage and what isn't.

You were correlating point guard play with team makes and attempts near the rim. That was your original argument that if Paul was on the Celts , Boston would be near the bottom of the league in shots at the rim. I am just pointing out that the point guard is not the only indicator of shots at the rim. Look at those teams.
You cant ignore all the other players on the team and the style of offense.

  So. we're going to completely change our style of play after we get CP3 without getting rid of our other players? We're going to add a great low post scorer to our team, or maybe see if PP and Ray can play at the pace the Warriors do? Or maybe we'll tell KG and JO to start playing more like Griffin and Jordan. Yes, that should work.

Further more, shots at the rim is not an indicator of success as Dallas was next to last in the league in that category.
 

  No, but they make a difference in how efficiently you score. But this is much simpler. All we need to do is turn the ball over less often, get a bunch more offensive rebounds and start taking a ton of three point shots.

[BballTim]

I think your over emphasis on shots at the rim is missing the larger picture. For one it could be a deliberate decision of the strucure of the offense by the coaches as much as it is inherent differences in the PGs games.

Another point is that Rondo takes 2 less 3s and 3 less free throws per game than Rondo. That easily accounts for the much of the at the rim difference.

But that's not a bad thing, CP3 is a much more efficient scorer and diverse scoring threat because he can get to the line (and make them at a high percentage) and also hit threes.

  I don't know why a coach would want to emphasize jump shots over shots at the rim, but I suppose anything's possible. And a large amount of CP3's free throws aren't from shooting fouls.

The top ten teams at generating shots at the rim

1. Denver
2. Toronto
3. Memphis
4. Charlotte
5. LA Clippers
6. Chicago
7. Detroit
8. Utah Jazz
9. GS Warriors
10. Boston

I guess there are 9 point guards better than Rondo with the likes of Mike COnley, Chsuncey Billups, Rodney Stuckey, Jerryd Bayless etc...

  Sigh. Rondo's tied for 8th in baskets at the rim and he's 2nd in assists at the rim. The only point guards in the list that are ahead of Rondo in *either* category are Rose and Stuckey, but in scoring at the rim. Stuckey's not among the leaders in assists at all. Rose's combined points and assists at the rim beat Rondo's by .1 per game, but he plays slightly more minutes and at a slightly faster pace so it's a wash.

Also, if you look at shots 3-9 feet (where you can factor in Paul's deadly floater) Paul is in the top ten in makes and attempts while Rondo isnt in the top 30 in either.

Also, if you look at assists of baskets less than ten feet, Paul is in the top 6 while Rondo is 22nd.

Dunks and layups arent the only high percentage shots.

  No, there are also three pointers. NO made 65% of their shots at the rim last year, and 38% of their shots in the 3-9 feet range. I guess we differ on our opinion of what's high percentage and what isn't.

You were correlating point guard play with team makes and attempts near the rim. That was your original argument that if Paul was on the Celts , Boston would be near the bottom of the league in shots at the rim. I am just pointing out that the point guard is not the only indicator of shots at the rim. Look at those teams.
You cant ignore all the other players on the team and the style of offense.

  By the way, are you saying that there's no correlation between who your pg is and shots at the rim? That if Toronto used Rose instead of Calderon that they wouldn't take any more shots at the rim?

[wdleehi]

How did this become an argument about shots at the rim? 


I didn't know that was the main way the Celtics scored baskets. 


If that is the case, let's trade Ray Allen for a dunker. 



Paul >  Rondo


If the Celtics can get Paul for Rondo and the bench mix, do it.

[lon3lytoaster]

I'm just going to throw this out there. I love Rajon Rondo. I've seen him play his entire career in Green and I remember most of it vividly. (I'm going strictly by memory with this following reminiscing, so bare with me)

I remember his rookie preseason, that crazy put back dunk off a Gerald Green miss, and the following steal of the inbound pass and layup over David Lee.

I remember him, also in his rookie pre-season hitting a game tying three pointer against the Raptors, and Tommy raving about his shooting ability.

I remember him being stuck behind Telfair most of that year, and when he finally got his chance he exceeded everyone's expectations.

The first time we beat San Antonio in 17 or so years, It was Paul Pierce, Al Jefferson and.. Rajon Rondo leading the way, Rondo having the best game of his career to that point with like 13 assists and 15 boards.

Even though that season sucked, you could tell Rajon was something special.

And I'm sure everyone remembers his playoff moments in 2008 against the Lakers, especially game six. And the following year against the Bulls.

Despite this, and my sort of ironic signature, if Danny thinks moving him for Paul is the right move to make us better now AND possibly in the future, I'm all for moving Rajon. He's a Celtic, I love what he's done for us, but if it's his time to leave the team, I support whatever move Danny makes.

[Evantime34]

I agree with all this but the two first in addition to Green bothers me a little bit. If CP3 leaves then those picks could help in the rebuilding process.

Well, so does a big pile of cap space, which is what we'd have with only Rondo, PP, and rookie contracts on the books.

Historically what players have signed with the Boston Celtics as a free agent?

[lon3lytoaster]

I agree with all this but the two first in addition to Green bothers me a little bit. If CP3 leaves then those picks could help in the rebuilding process.

Well, so does a big pile of cap space, which is what we'd have with only Rondo, PP, and rookie contracts on the books.

Historically what players have signed with the Boston Celtics as a free agent?

Historically, when has Boston ever really had much cap room to play with?

[Greenbean]

I think your over emphasis on shots at the rim is missing the larger picture. For one it could be a deliberate decision of the strucure of the offense by the coaches as much as it is inherent differences in the PGs games.

Another point is that Rondo takes 2 less 3s and 3 less free throws per game than Rondo. That easily accounts for the much of the at the rim difference.

But that's not a bad thing, CP3 is a much more efficient scorer and diverse scoring threat because he can get to the line (and make them at a high percentage) and also hit threes.

  I don't know why a coach would want to emphasize jump shots over shots at the rim, but I suppose anything's possible. And a large amount of CP3's free throws aren't from shooting fouls.

The top ten teams at generating shots at the rim

1. Denver
2. Toronto
3. Memphis
4. Charlotte
5. LA Clippers
6. Chicago
7. Detroit
8. Utah Jazz
9. GS Warriors
10. Boston

I guess there are 9 point guards better than Rondo with the likes of Mike COnley, Chsuncey Billups, Rodney Stuckey, Jerryd Bayless etc...

  Sigh. Rondo's tied for 8th in baskets at the rim and he's 2nd in assists at the rim. The only point guards in the list that are ahead of Rondo in *either* category are Rose and Stuckey, but in scoring at the rim. Stuckey's not among the leaders in assists at all. Rose's combined points and assists at the rim beat Rondo's by .1 per game, but he plays slightly more minutes and at a slightly faster pace so it's a wash.

Also, if you look at shots 3-9 feet (where you can factor in Paul's deadly floater) Paul is in the top ten in makes and attempts while Rondo isnt in the top 30 in either.

Also, if you look at assists of baskets less than ten feet, Paul is in the top 6 while Rondo is 22nd.

Dunks and layups arent the only high percentage shots.

  No, there are also three pointers. NO made 65% of their shots at the rim last year, and 38% of their shots in the 3-9 feet range. I guess we differ on our opinion of what's high percentage and what isn't.

You were correlating point guard play with team makes and attempts near the rim. That was your original argument that if Paul was on the Celts , Boston would be near the bottom of the league in shots at the rim. I am just pointing out that the point guard is not the only indicator of shots at the rim. Look at those teams.
You cant ignore all the other players on the team and the style of offense.

  So. we're going to completely change our style of play after we get CP3 without getting rid of our other players? We're going to add a great low post scorer to our team, or maybe see if PP and Ray can play at the pace the Warriors do? Or maybe we'll tell KG and JO to start playing more like Griffin and Jordan. Yes, that should work.

Further more, shots at the rim is not an indicator of success as Dallas was next to last in the league in that category.
 

  No, but they make a difference in how efficiently you score. But this is much simpler. All we need to do is turn the ball over less often, get a bunch more offensive rebounds and start taking a ton of three point shots.

Did I say that? No I didnt.
Your saying that if you drop Chris Paul on the Celtics, that they would get less shots at the rim and be less efficient. The only evidence you are pointing to is how many shots Chris Paul creates and converts at the Rim playing in NO with sub par teammates and in a slow paced offense that is even slower that the Cletics.





You are ignoring many factors to make the point that Chris Paul will make the Celtics less efficient.


You are digging pretty deep here. Perhaps Rondo is the better quarterback, but CP isnt too far behind and he can score efficently, and be counted on to score if one of our scoreres went cold to boot.

[LB3533]

It is entirely possibly that Chris Paul's stats will increase playing with better offensive players in our Big 3.

It is also entirely possible that Chris Paul's already high level efficiency stats will also increase playing along side our Big 3.

There is virtually zero chance that by adding Chris Paul to our team that our team's offense would suffer.