Lets just trade the whole team for Chris Paul

[GreenFaith1819]

You can't compare this to 07. Garnett is a big man and a defensive force that anchors the whole team. Chris paul is a point guard. Good big men win championships... The same can't be said about point guards.

Admittedly I'm a vid man. I watch clips and get a good impression of a player's worth. I saw two IMO rather extraordinary plays from Chris Paul that showed me that he is special:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fL5tCyIYwzM

Chris Paul defeated the 7'0" shot blocker Bynum in a space of only 3-4 feet. That footwork of his reminds me of Hakeem and McHale.

Here is one where he breaks Parker:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YP8_j-eGu84

I can't speak for anyone else here, but I have not seen plays like this in a few years.

I'm at peace if Rondo stays here, but if we get Paul I'll be happy, too.

[Greenbean]

Chris Paul for Rondo and Green and picks is a great trade for the Celtics. Adding in Moore and Bradley, if they have to go, well then, they have to go and are easily replaced.

Defenses collapsed the last two years and gave Rondo an outside shot that he was hesitant to take and not making at a very good clip given that he was wide open. His inability to properly make free throws or hit that wide open shot are easily the biggest weakness this team has offensively and they have struggled mightily at times on that end of the floor. Something has to be done and the best PG in the league is available.

And fans should have seen the Jeff Green heading out of town written on the wall. He didn't fit in last year. He's not a great rebounder and lacked defensive toughness. So what were the very first rumors we heard this year after the lockout ended, the Celtics were looking at SFs and were going to pick one up, definitely. Who's names popped up most? Shane Battier, Grant Hill, and Marquis Daniels. All SFs who play better defense than Green, will come a whole lot cheaper than Green, and can be had for a lot less years than Green will want.

Bradley showed nothing and Moore might not even be good enough for the NBA. Do the trade and sign cheap players and the roster could look like this

Chris Paul, Delonte West, Chris Quinn
Ray Allen, Anthony Parker
Paul Pierce, Shane Battier
Kevin Garnett, Glen Davis JaJuan Johnson, Leon Powe
Jermaine O'Neal, Dan Gadzuric, Jason Collins

I could be quite happy with a team like this for this year with just about everyone except Pierce and Paul expiring at years end.

Exactly...TP Nick.

Rondo can be a dominant player, but not consistently and hes has show for years that consistency is his biggest issue. When he is attacking with confidence I say to myself, "man I wouldnt trade this guy for anyone".

Then comes a game, a week, or a month when he just refuses to go to the rim with any regularity. He is a totalyl different player during these stretches and it can be maddening.


I love Rondo on this veteran team.



I can see myself coming to dislike Rondo if he is relied upon to lead a team going forward.

Chris Paul has already shown he can be a leader on a team. This year he wouldnt need to lead, but after this year and going forward, if you asked me who you would want to start a roster with, Rondo and Pierce or Paul and Pierce...its Paul hands down.

[Celtics4ever]

Rebounding woes will be worse with Paul too.  Rajon is a better rebounder at guard.

[Greenbean]

All I know is Rondo is a horrible shooter and Chris Paul is a better player. So, give me Chris Paul!

People keep saying that but it's not really true. Yes his ft shooting blows. His mid range game is greatly improved and not only was he taking more last year he was also making more. Just look at his percentage from mid range last year and compare it to others and it's really not bad.

Defenses give Rondo the outside shot.


Defenses do not give Paul the outside shot.

  Chris Paul doesn't get to the rim any more often than Ray Allen. Last year we were near the top of the league in inside scoring. Trade for Paul, and we may be close to the bottom. It's great that people won't sag off Paul that much, not so great that they won't have to worry too much about protecting the rim.

Thats just an inflammatory statement. What makes you think we would be near the bottom of the league?

In NO, Paul ran a pick and roll offense with David West. You dont think Paul can get to the bucket? What about when Rondo goes long stretches without attempting a shot at the rim because he just missed his last 15 free throws?

I have been reading your comments about this trade for weeks now. If you are concerned about Chris Paul's knee, then I get it.

If you are trying to sell everyone that Rajon Rondo is a better player and point guard than Chris Paul, your argument is going to fall on deaf ears for the most part.

[wdleehi]

All I know is Rondo is a horrible shooter and Chris Paul is a better player. So, give me Chris Paul!

People keep saying that but it's not really true. Yes his ft shooting blows. His mid range game is greatly improved and not only was he taking more last year he was also making more. Just look at his percentage from mid range last year and compare it to others and it's really not bad.

Defenses give Rondo the outside shot.


Defenses do not give Paul the outside shot.

  Chris Paul doesn't get to the rim any more often than Ray Allen. Last year we were near the top of the league in inside scoring. Trade for Paul, and we may be close to the bottom. It's great that people won't sag off Paul that much, not so great that they won't have to worry too much about protecting the rim.

Then feed KG in the low post more.  

Until someone can show me how Rondo creates more points when he is on the floor vs. Paul (since the numbers we have seen up to now points the other way) I have to believe the Celtics offense will be better with Paul.  


Oh, points in the pain last year.

Boston:  37.4
NO:  36.5


.9 points a game difference.

[wdleehi]

Rebounding woes will be worse with Paul too.  Rajon is a better rebounder at guard.

4.4

vs.

4.1


Not a huge difference. 

[hardlyyardley]

Giving up too much....will be decimated in 2013 on if he does not stay

That being said.....would rather see Baby included in a sign/trade than either Green of the pick (s)

[BballTim]

All I know is Rondo is a horrible shooter and Chris Paul is a better player. So, give me Chris Paul!

People keep saying that but it's not really true. Yes his ft shooting blows. His mid range game is greatly improved and not only was he taking more last year he was also making more. Just look at his percentage from mid range last year and compare it to others and it's really not bad.

Defenses give Rondo the outside shot.


Defenses do not give Paul the outside shot.

  Chris Paul doesn't get to the rim any more often than Ray Allen. Last year we were near the top of the league in inside scoring. Trade for Paul, and we may be close to the bottom. It's great that people won't sag off Paul that much, not so great that they won't have to worry too much about protecting the rim.

Then feed KG in the low post more.  

Until someone can show me how Rondo creates more points when he is on the floor vs. Paul (since the numbers we have seen up to now points the other way) I have to believe the Celtics offense will be better with Paul.  


Oh, points in the pain last year.

Boston:  37.4
NO:  36.5


.9 points a game difference.

  Boston was 10th in the league in shots taken at the rim and 5th in made baskets (16.9 a game). NO was 29th in attempts and 28th in makes (13.1). If Rondo scored and assisted at the rim at the same rate as CP3 we'd go from 5th in makes to about 24th (14.0). About 6 points a game difference.

[dmny5000]

You can't compare this to 07. Garnett is a big man and a defensive force that anchors the whole team. Chris paul is a point guard. Good big men win championships... The same can't be said about point guards.

Admittedly I'm a vid man. I watch clips and get a good impression of a player's worth. I saw two IMO rather extraordinary plays from Chris Paul that showed me that he is special:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fL5tCyIYwzM

Chris Paul defeated the 7'0" shot blocker Bynum in a space of only 3-4 feet. That footwork of his reminds me of Hakeem and McHale.

Here is one where he breaks Parker:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YP8_j-eGu84

I can't speak for anyone else here, but I have not seen plays like this in a few years.

I'm at peace if Rondo stays here, but if we get Paul I'll be happy, too.

If breaking someones ankles makes a player special then hot sauce is next years mvp.

A dribble move doesn't mean anything, he has some great clips just don't know why you chose those.

Also, what pg wouldn't be able to cross up a C?

[wdleehi]

All I know is Rondo is a horrible shooter and Chris Paul is a better player. So, give me Chris Paul!

People keep saying that but it's not really true. Yes his ft shooting blows. His mid range game is greatly improved and not only was he taking more last year he was also making more. Just look at his percentage from mid range last year and compare it to others and it's really not bad.

Defenses give Rondo the outside shot.


Defenses do not give Paul the outside shot.

  Chris Paul doesn't get to the rim any more often than Ray Allen. Last year we were near the top of the league in inside scoring. Trade for Paul, and we may be close to the bottom. It's great that people won't sag off Paul that much, not so great that they won't have to worry too much about protecting the rim.

Then feed KG in the low post more.  

Until someone can show me how Rondo creates more points when he is on the floor vs. Paul (since the numbers we have seen up to now points the other way) I have to believe the Celtics offense will be better with Paul.  


Oh, points in the pain last year.

Boston:  37.4
NO:  36.5


.9 points a game difference.

  Boston was 10th in the league in shots taken at the rim and 5th in made baskets (16.9 a game). NO was 29th in attempts and 28th in makes (13.1). If Rondo scored and assisted at the rim at the same rate as CP3 we'd go from 5th in makes to about 24th (14.0). About 6 points a game difference.

And yet, a .9 point difference in points in the paint. 

[Greenbean]

All I know is Rondo is a horrible shooter and Chris Paul is a better player. So, give me Chris Paul!

People keep saying that but it's not really true. Yes his ft shooting blows. His mid range game is greatly improved and not only was he taking more last year he was also making more. Just look at his percentage from mid range last year and compare it to others and it's really not bad.

Defenses give Rondo the outside shot.


Defenses do not give Paul the outside shot.

  Chris Paul doesn't get to the rim any more often than Ray Allen. Last year we were near the top of the league in inside scoring. Trade for Paul, and we may be close to the bottom. It's great that people won't sag off Paul that much, not so great that they won't have to worry too much about protecting the rim.

Then feed KG in the low post more.  

Until someone can show me how Rondo creates more points when he is on the floor vs. Paul (since the numbers we have seen up to now points the other way) I have to believe the Celtics offense will be better with Paul.  


Oh, points in the pain last year.

Boston:  37.4
NO:  36.5


.9 points a game difference.

  Boston was 10th in the league in shots taken at the rim and 5th in made baskets (16.9 a game). NO was 29th in attempts and 28th in makes (13.1). If Rondo scored and assisted at the rim at the same rate as CP3 we'd go from 5th in makes to about 24th (14.0). About 6 points a game difference.

Rondo ONLY scores and assists at the rim because he cant shoot!

You're acting like Chris Paul cant penetrate and dish. The guy has averaged 9.9 apg for his career. He didnt do that standing at the 3 point line.

The offense he ran in NO had him operating at the ft line and getting into the middle and kicking out.

Why dont you think Paul can do what Rondo did but actually be a threat from outside as well?

[BballTim]

All I know is Rondo is a horrible shooter and Chris Paul is a better player. So, give me Chris Paul!

People keep saying that but it's not really true. Yes his ft shooting blows. His mid range game is greatly improved and not only was he taking more last year he was also making more. Just look at his percentage from mid range last year and compare it to others and it's really not bad.

Defenses give Rondo the outside shot.


Defenses do not give Paul the outside shot.

  Chris Paul doesn't get to the rim any more often than Ray Allen. Last year we were near the top of the league in inside scoring. Trade for Paul, and we may be close to the bottom. It's great that people won't sag off Paul that much, not so great that they won't have to worry too much about protecting the rim.

Thats just an inflammatory statement. What makes you think we would be near the bottom of the league?

  The fact that NO was near the bottom of the league? The fact that Rondo generates so many more points at the rim in a game than CP3? The fact that Rondo generates a higher percentage of the Celts points at the rim than Paul does for NO?

  What makes you think we wouldn't? Reading that CP3 will be the savior of our offense, and not realizing what the result is when you add a jump shooter to a team that's primarily comprised of jump shooters?

In NO, Paul ran a pick and roll offense with David West. You dont think Paul can get to the bucket?

  I don't know that whether he *can* is important, more whether he ever *does*.

What about when Rondo goes long stretches without attempting a shot at the rim because he just missed his last 15 free throws?

  That's just an inflammatory statement, and clearly not true. But in any case, you should be able to do the math, when our point guard, who everyone claims is reluctant to drive the ball, gets to the rim much more than Paul.

I have been reading your comments about this trade for weeks now. If you are concerned about Chris Paul's knee, then I get it.

If you are trying to sell everyone that Rajon Rondo is a better player and point guard than Chris Paul, your argument is going to fall on deaf ears for the most part.

  Well, it's mainly the knees, but his not attacking the basket is probably related to that. But any criticism of Paul, no matter how apparent, will fall on deaf ears for the most part.

[RyNye]

Until someone can show me how Rondo creates more points when he is on the floor vs. Paul (since the numbers we have seen up to now points the other way) I have to believe the Celtics offense will be better with Paul.

Chris Paul 15.8ppg 9.8 assists per game
Rajon Rondo 10.6ppg 11.2 assists per game

So Chris Paul generates, on average, in one game, at least 35.4 points.
Rajon Rondo generates 33 points.

This is assuming every assist is for 2 points and without free throws. Let's tweak things to take into account 3 point attempts and going to the line.

According to team stats, for every 100 FGA the Hornets make, there are about 20 3PA. In addition, for every 100 FGA the Hornets make, they go to the line 28 times, and convert ~75% of them. This should bump Chris Paul up to ~39.6 points per game production. Obviously this is a rough metric, but for our purposes it's fine. Add in Chris Paul's own free throws per game his total is approximately 44.2 points in an average game.

If we use the same metric with the Celtics team stats (and you can do the math out yourself, not that I've shown you how I am looking at it; just go to basketball-reference.com), Rajon Rondo is bumped up to approximately 39.4 points per game.

Yes, these aren't the perfect stats, and the numbers are fudged a little, but the calculations between Paul and Rondo are consistent, so even if their absolute value is off, the relative value is just right.

Generally speaking, Paul, while on the floor, is better for about 5 extra points per game, whether from himself or from his teammates.

I am presenting this all without comment, for now, just so people can discuss the comparison accurately.

EDIT: Of course, this is not taking into account how differently Paul might play in the Celtics system, and only looks at raw point generation as opposed to inside v. outside. Still, good to know, right?

[BballTim]

All I know is Rondo is a horrible shooter and Chris Paul is a better player. So, give me Chris Paul!

People keep saying that but it's not really true. Yes his ft shooting blows. His mid range game is greatly improved and not only was he taking more last year he was also making more. Just look at his percentage from mid range last year and compare it to others and it's really not bad.

Defenses give Rondo the outside shot.


Defenses do not give Paul the outside shot.

  Chris Paul doesn't get to the rim any more often than Ray Allen. Last year we were near the top of the league in inside scoring. Trade for Paul, and we may be close to the bottom. It's great that people won't sag off Paul that much, not so great that they won't have to worry too much about protecting the rim.

Then feed KG in the low post more.  

Until someone can show me how Rondo creates more points when he is on the floor vs. Paul (since the numbers we have seen up to now points the other way) I have to believe the Celtics offense will be better with Paul.  


Oh, points in the pain last year.

Boston:  37.4
NO:  36.5


.9 points a game difference.

  Boston was 10th in the league in shots taken at the rim and 5th in made baskets (16.9 a game). NO was 29th in attempts and 28th in makes (13.1). If Rondo scored and assisted at the rim at the same rate as CP3 we'd go from 5th in makes to about 24th (14.0). About 6 points a game difference.

And yet, a .9 point difference in points in the paint. 

  This probably doesn't matter to you, but from hoopdata, NO shot 65% at the rim and 38% from 3-9 feet. Points in the paint that aren't easy layins or dunks aren't as great as they seem.

[BballTim]

Until someone can show me how Rondo creates more points when he is on the floor vs. Paul (since the numbers we have seen up to now points the other way) I have to believe the Celtics offense will be better with Paul.

Chris Paul 15.8ppg 9.8 assists per game
Rajon Rondo 10.6ppg 11.2 assists per game

So Chris Paul generates, on average, in one game, at least 35.4 points.
Rajon Rondo generates 33 points.

This is assuming every assist is for 2 points and without free throws. Let's tweak things to take into account 3 point attempts and going to the line.

According to team stats, for every 100 FGA the Hornets make, there are about 20 3PA. In addition, for every 100 FGA the Hornets make, they go to the line 28 times, and convert ~75% of them. This should bump Chris Paul up to ~39.6 points per game production. Obviously this is a rough metric, but for our purposes it's fine. Add in Chris Paul's own free throws per game his total is approximately 44.2 points in an average game.

If we use the same metric with the Celtics team stats (and you can do the math out yourself, not that I've shown you how I am looking at it; just go to basketball-reference.com), Rajon Rondo is bumped up to approximately 39.4 points per game.

Yes, these aren't the perfect stats, and the numbers are fudged a little, but the calculations between Paul and Rondo are consistent, so even if their absolute value is off, the relative value is just right.

Generally speaking, Paul, while on the floor, is better for about 5 extra points per game, whether from himself or from his teammates.

I am presenting this all without comment, for now, just so people can discuss the comparison accurately.

EDIT: Of course, this is not taking into account how differently Paul might play in the Celtics system, and only looks at raw point generation as opposed to inside v. outside. Still, good to know, right?

  I think you're double counting free throws made, when you say "add in CP3's own free throws made" but you've already counted his total points scored. You've got, from your initial numbers, CP3 at 35.4 and Rondo at 33. Before the all-star break, Rondo was at 35.4 as well. In Nov/Dec, while he was healthy, Rondo was probably a little over 37.