Wow. Tedy Bruschi just castrated Ochocinco

[cman88]

As you might be able to tell from my side conversation about Bruschi being underrated I have sometimes scoffed at the Pat's false modesty.

I do think it is false modesty....but I get what belicheck is trying to do...he doesnt want his team to be lulled into a false sense of confidence...he wants them to be on their toes..always looking for areas to improve

they were too confident going into the game with the Browns and got smoked...and after blowing out so many teams the end of last year, I think they had a false level of confidence going into the jets game and got beat partly because of it.

[KGs Knee]

As you might be able to tell from my side conversation about Bruschi being underrated I have sometimes scoffed at the Pat's false modesty.

I do think it is false modesty....but I get what belicheck is trying to do...he doesnt want his team to be lulled into a false sense of confidence...he wants them to be on their toes..always looking for areas to improve

they were too confident going into the game with the Browns and got smoked...and after blowing out so many teams the end of last year, I think they had a false level of confidence going into the jets game and got beat partly because of it.

The Pats definitely tend to display a false modesty.  Once you get past the Belichick-speak, they come across as arrogant. Maybe it's just supreme confidence.  But I definitely think it does serve them well.

You left out the biggest example of when they got away from this, and it hurting them, though.  My Giants beating them in the Super Bowl.  You could just see it coming the way they were acting heading into that game.  It wasn't business-as-usual Patriots.

[Roy H.]

As a Bears fan I dread that Urlacher will be the same place or worse in a few years, trying to enjoy him while he's still got some pop.

In a year or two, yeah.  Once a guy loses it, the fall is steep; look at Zach Thomas and Derrick Brooks.  But for now, our man Urlacher is still playing at an exceptional level.  If his DTs can keep penetrating and tying up blockers, he's in for a huge year.

[Eja117]

I loved Bruschi but he doesn't sniff the Top Ten LB's of All-Time list.

He's not going to make the HOF, either.  He'll probably get a few votes here & there but it won't be nearly enough to make it in.  If he's not in the HOF (when eligible), he's not making a top ten list of mine. Rings or not. Especially when you consider some of the men who are in the HOF and played the position.  Some real all-time greats.

To me, the rings arguement only holds water when you're comparing similar talents.  That's when I start to look more and that factor and, perhaps, use it as a tiebreaker.

A very solid LB and exceptional team leader on the first dynasty of the 21st century but I leave it at that.

Wait a second. By this theory if Jimmy Claussen and his PapaJohns.com Bowl win hold the ND passing records then he would be the best ND QB right? And similarly maybe Rex Grossman has it over Tebow?

Instead of rings as the tie breaker why aren't stats the tie breaker for people with similar amounts of rings?  How do you measure "talent"? With rings, right?

If a relay team keeps coming in second place again and again can the individual relay runners ever be the best relay runners?

[Eja117]

Its pretty obvious they don't like ocho, which doesn't surprise me at all with radio guys.  Teddy's little tirade is unwarranted, he honestly sounds bitter that he wasn't there playing.  giving your teammate sincere accolade for a job well done doesn't deserve that.  But Ocho can't do any thing right to Boston radio guys.  Teddy needs to get over himself, and sit down somewhere.

To be fair when you wear three Super Bowl rings, played in two other Super Bowls and are probably a top ten linebacker all time you can pretty much say anything you want to a loser like Ochocinco.

Ray Lewis
Patrick Willis
DeMarcus Ware
Brian Urlacher
James Harrison
Clay Matthews
Lawrence Taylor
Dick Butkus
Mick Singletary
Jack Lambert
Dave Wilcox
Ted Hendrix

 I would say maaaaaaaybe top ten of his era. But top ten all time? Not quite.

If you don't have three rings or more.....need not apply

You taking Trent Dilfer over Marino then too?

I would definitely definitely definitely take Trent Dilfer's career over Dan Marino's.  Not even a question. Who would you rather be? A champion or a synonym for loser?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YNooFZPfmgE&feature=results_main&playnext=1&list=PL4FF023A436A18C30

Yeahhh. I think I would still rather "be" Marino. You have your one ring, I'll keep my mutiple passing records.


In principle you are right, but really? You consider Dilfers career a success and Marinos a failure?

If you were a GM and had a magic crystal ball and it told you that you could draft DIlfer's career or Marino's you take Dilfers. if you want to win a championship. Maybe if you want to sell jerseys you take Marino.

[Donoghus]

I loved Bruschi but he doesn't sniff the Top Ten LB's of All-Time list.

He's not going to make the HOF, either.  He'll probably get a few votes here & there but it won't be nearly enough to make it in.  If he's not in the HOF (when eligible), he's not making a top ten list of mine. Rings or not. Especially when you consider some of the men who are in the HOF and played the position.  Some real all-time greats.

To me, the rings arguement only holds water when you're comparing similar talents.  That's when I start to look more and that factor and, perhaps, use it as a tiebreaker.

A very solid LB and exceptional team leader on the first dynasty of the 21st century but I leave it at that.

Wait a second. By this theory if Jimmy Claussen and his PapaJohns.com Bowl win hold the ND passing records then he would be the best ND QB right? And similarly maybe Rex Grossman has it over Tebow?

Instead of rings as the tie breaker why aren't stats the tie breaker for people with similar amounts of rings?  How do you measure "talent"? With rings, right?

If a relay team keeps coming in second place again and again can the individual relay runners ever be the best relay runners?

No, not at all.

But if you wanna try and put words in my mouth and try to concoct some theory out of it, have fun.

I think most people in this thread get what I was saying.

[BballTim]

Its pretty obvious they don't like ocho, which doesn't surprise me at all with radio guys.  Teddy's little tirade is unwarranted, he honestly sounds bitter that he wasn't there playing.  giving your teammate sincere accolade for a job well done doesn't deserve that.  But Ocho can't do any thing right to Boston radio guys.  Teddy needs to get over himself, and sit down somewhere.

To be fair when you wear three Super Bowl rings, played in two other Super Bowls and are probably a top ten linebacker all time you can pretty much say anything you want to a loser like Ochocinco.

Ray Lewis
Patrick Willis
DeMarcus Ware
Brian Urlacher
James Harrison
Clay Matthews
Lawrence Taylor
Dick Butkus
Mick Singletary
Jack Lambert
Dave Wilcox
Ted Hendrix

 I would say maaaaaaaybe top ten of his era. But top ten all time? Not quite.

If you don't have three rings or more.....need not apply

You taking Trent Dilfer over Marino then too?

I would definitely definitely definitely take Trent Dilfer's career over Dan Marino's.  Not even a question. Who would you rather be? A champion or a synonym for loser?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YNooFZPfmgE&feature=results_main&playnext=1&list=PL4FF023A436A18C30

Yeahhh. I think I would still rather "be" Marino. You have your one ring, I'll keep my mutiple passing records.


In principle you are right, but really? You consider Dilfers career a success and Marinos a failure?

If you were a GM and had a magic crystal ball and it told you that you could draft DIlfer's career or Marino's you take Dilfers. if you want to win a championship. Maybe if you want to sell jerseys you take Marino.

  Haha. So you don't think the Ravens would have won the title with Marino instead of Dilfer? You might as well say that every player with more than 3 rings had a better career than Larry Bird.

[Eja117]

I loved Bruschi but he doesn't sniff the Top Ten LB's of All-Time list.

He's not going to make the HOF, either.  He'll probably get a few votes here & there but it won't be nearly enough to make it in.  If he's not in the HOF (when eligible), he's not making a top ten list of mine. Rings or not. Especially when you consider some of the men who are in the HOF and played the position.  Some real all-time greats.

To me, the rings arguement only holds water when you're comparing similar talents.  That's when I start to look more and that factor and, perhaps, use it as a tiebreaker.

A very solid LB and exceptional team leader on the first dynasty of the 21st century but I leave it at that.

Wait a second. By this theory if Jimmy Claussen and his PapaJohns.com Bowl win hold the ND passing records then he would be the best ND QB right? And similarly maybe Rex Grossman has it over Tebow?

Instead of rings as the tie breaker why aren't stats the tie breaker for people with similar amounts of rings?  How do you measure "talent"? With rings, right?

If a relay team keeps coming in second place again and again can the individual relay runners ever be the best relay runners?

No, not at all.

But if you wanna try and put words in my mouth and try to concoct some theory out of it, have fun.

I think most people in this thread get what I was saying.

I don't see how asking questions is putting words in your mouth.  Everyone says to me consistently "Well following that theory - insert conclusion here -" When I do the exact same thing I'm putting words in people's mouths.

[Eja117]

Its pretty obvious they don't like ocho, which doesn't surprise me at all with radio guys.  Teddy's little tirade is unwarranted, he honestly sounds bitter that he wasn't there playing.  giving your teammate sincere accolade for a job well done doesn't deserve that.  But Ocho can't do any thing right to Boston radio guys.  Teddy needs to get over himself, and sit down somewhere.

To be fair when you wear three Super Bowl rings, played in two other Super Bowls and are probably a top ten linebacker all time you can pretty much say anything you want to a loser like Ochocinco.

Ray Lewis
Patrick Willis
DeMarcus Ware
Brian Urlacher
James Harrison
Clay Matthews
Lawrence Taylor
Dick Butkus
Mick Singletary
Jack Lambert
Dave Wilcox
Ted Hendrix

 I would say maaaaaaaybe top ten of his era. But top ten all time? Not quite.

If you don't have three rings or more.....need not apply

You taking Trent Dilfer over Marino then too?

I would definitely definitely definitely take Trent Dilfer's career over Dan Marino's.  Not even a question. Who would you rather be? A champion or a synonym for loser?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YNooFZPfmgE&feature=results_main&playnext=1&list=PL4FF023A436A18C30

Yeahhh. I think I would still rather "be" Marino. You have your one ring, I'll keep my mutiple passing records.


In principle you are right, but really? You consider Dilfers career a success and Marinos a failure?

If you were a GM and had a magic crystal ball and it told you that you could draft DIlfer's career or Marino's you take Dilfers. if you want to win a championship. Maybe if you want to sell jerseys you take Marino.

  Haha. So you don't think the Ravens would have won the title with Marino instead of Dilfer? You might as well say that every player with more than 3 rings had a better career than Larry Bird.

I don't think the Ravens would have done much better with Marino than they did.

Better career than Larry Bird? Hey no fair! You're putting words in my mouth and using them to concoct theories!

[BballTim]

If a relay team keeps coming in second place again and again can the individual relay runners ever be the best relay runners?

  They can't all be the best relay runners, but any one (or two or three) can be. If you compete in 8 relay races and run the fastest leg out of anyone in every race, who's the best runner? Someone who's slower than you but has faster teammates?

[Donoghus]

If a relay team keeps coming in second place again and again can the individual relay runners ever be the best relay runners?

  They can't all be the best relay runners, but any one (or two or three) can be. If you compete in 8 relay races and run the fastest leg out of anyone in every race, who's the best runner? Someone who's slower than you but has faster teammates?

Well said.

[BballTim]

Its pretty obvious they don't like ocho, which doesn't surprise me at all with radio guys.  Teddy's little tirade is unwarranted, he honestly sounds bitter that he wasn't there playing.  giving your teammate sincere accolade for a job well done doesn't deserve that.  But Ocho can't do any thing right to Boston radio guys.  Teddy needs to get over himself, and sit down somewhere.

To be fair when you wear three Super Bowl rings, played in two other Super Bowls and are probably a top ten linebacker all time you can pretty much say anything you want to a loser like Ochocinco.

Ray Lewis
Patrick Willis
DeMarcus Ware
Brian Urlacher
James Harrison
Clay Matthews
Lawrence Taylor
Dick Butkus
Mick Singletary
Jack Lambert
Dave Wilcox
Ted Hendrix

 I would say maaaaaaaybe top ten of his era. But top ten all time? Not quite.

If you don't have three rings or more.....need not apply

You taking Trent Dilfer over Marino then too?

I would definitely definitely definitely take Trent Dilfer's career over Dan Marino's.  Not even a question. Who would you rather be? A champion or a synonym for loser?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YNooFZPfmgE&feature=results_main&playnext=1&list=PL4FF023A436A18C30

Yeahhh. I think I would still rather "be" Marino. You have your one ring, I'll keep my mutiple passing records.


In principle you are right, but really? You consider Dilfers career a success and Marinos a failure?

If you were a GM and had a magic crystal ball and it told you that you could draft DIlfer's career or Marino's you take Dilfers. if you want to win a championship. Maybe if you want to sell jerseys you take Marino.

  Haha. So you don't think the Ravens would have won the title with Marino instead of Dilfer? You might as well say that every player with more than 3 rings had a better career than Larry Bird.

I don't think the Ravens would have done much better with Marino than they did.

  So the Ravens didn't win the title because Dilfer was more talented than Marino (since he obviously wasn't), it was more right place/right time. Which, IMO, is a poor way of comparing who's the better player.

[Eja117]

If a relay team keeps coming in second place again and again can the individual relay runners ever be the best relay runners?

  They can't all be the best relay runners, but any one (or two or three) can be. If you compete in 8 relay races and run the fastest leg out of anyone in every race, who's the best runner? Someone who's slower than you but has faster teammates?

Very well said.

And I kinda agree. So if Bruschi plays about 13 seasons and his team wins again and again, who is the best LB? Ray Lewis?  Or if Bruschi plays 13 seasons and is a leader on a team defense that totally shuts down Peyton and the Eagles and the Rams with their great players and the Steelers and Ray is on a defense that doesn't...

This was always the logic that bothered me the whole last decade. The idea that Brady was dragging everyone along.

Every year they wanted us to think that teams with more Pro Bowlers were somehow just magically losing or Brady was dragging along the team. Typical year in the last decade. Brady, Seymore, and Viniateri go to the Pro Bowl. About 6 Colts and 6 Ravens get in. Pats with the Super Bowl.

Then you'd try to apply this same logic to Peyton Manning. He'd go out and get beat like 48-3 in the snow at Foxboro and people would say he's the best QB. And then you'd be like "Wait a minute. Did he win? No. Does Brady have the better WRs over Marvin Harrison and Reggie Wayne? No. Does he have a better TE than Dallas Clark? No. Does he have as many Pro Bowl offensive linemen? no. Does he have a Pro Bowl RB? No. Does he have a better DE than Dwight Freeney? No. So how is Peyton better? Well he threw for more TDs."

To me the Colts and Ravens were like the Buffalo Bills on the 2000s but somehow Peyton became Montana and Ray became Jack Ham.
I just saw this as such a joke and kinda extended it to every position. Although obviously Ray didn't have as good a QB.

[Eja117]

For what it's worth BballTim I never said Dilfer was more "talented" than Marino. Nor would I. But I could understand how someone would get that from what I did say. That's a somewhat logical conclusion to take from what I said.

[BballTim]

Then you'd try to apply this same logic to Peyton Manning. He'd go out and get beat like 48-3 in the snow at Foxboro and people would say he's the best QB. And then you'd be like "Wait a minute. Did he win? No. Does Brady have the better WRs over Marvin Harrison and Reggie Wayne? No. Does he have a better TE than Dallas Clark? No. Does he have as many Pro Bowl offensive linemen? no. Does he have a Pro Bowl RB? No. Does he have a better DE than Dwight Freeney? No. So how is Peyton better? Well he threw for more TDs."

  I don't really disagree with your point, but I don't think it's the apples to apples comparison that you do. It's true that Manning had more weapons on offense, but you'd have to wonder whether Brady would have the same success playing against the Pats defense and coaches that he had playing against the Colts defense and coaches. I'd guess he's be generally less successful under those circumstances.