Define "building around". Why do they keep saying we can't build around Rondo?

[BballTim]

Yeah but Miller brings a lot more to the table than Jones does. Well, he does in theory anyways. In theory he's an expodentially better ball handler, shot creator, and facilitator, and at least an equal or better defender. However, the only thing I know he does better for certain is rebound. One of the better rebounding swingmen in the leauge.

  Again, if you're expecting Miller to be a ball handler, shot creator or facilitator when he's on the court with James and/or Wade you're mistaken. For the, what, 1-2 possessions a game he fills one of these roles (if that many) you may have an advantage.

That's a different point than the one I was addressing. You said that Miller for his career is not as good a 3pt shooter than James Jones, I was conceding that's true, but that does not really describe his potential value to a team.

A back-court of Miller-Wade-James, with a front-court of Bosh-(Haslem/Anthony) if Miller is healthy and adjusted to the playing style is way better than any lineup they trotted out last year. 3 swingmen who can all facilitate an offense, as well as create their own shot and rebound exceptionally well? Its a dangerous combo.

  Ok, but I'm not talking about Miller's value to *a* team, but Miller's value to a team where his role is almost exclusively spot up shooter. Not to mention that Miller's ability to create his own shot and facilitate the offense is hampered by playing with two slashers (Wade and James) who won't do much for floor spacing if, and I know how unusual this sounds, neither one of them is controlling the ball.

Why are you assuming his role is going to be exclusively as a spot up shooter? 

  Years of watching Lebron and Wade, watching the Heat this year, watching Bibby, Miller and Haslem play for the Heat this year. Why are you assuming he'll have a different role?

  Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see LeBron and Wade share the ballhandling/facilitating with Bibby and/or Miller. They'll be lucky to get to the conference finals.

Well to be fair to Miller he was coming back from injury all year and never really had a shot to do much. Also, he's only 1 year removed from being a 48% 3pt shooter.

Also, I think your idea of what Mike Miller's role on the team should be or is is a little bit too broad. Landry Fields plays with Amar'e Stoudemire, he is an excellent facilitator (Fields, not Stat) because he throws killer entry passes and never tries to do things beyond his means. He doesn't get the assists, but he does have the skill to get Amar'e the ball in places with enough space to do some damage with his matchup. Miller can do that also.

  Miller's 1 year removed from being a 48% 3 point shooter, and 2 years removed from being a 38% 3 point shooter. And are you really comparing Amare's offensive game to LeBron's?

 

No, I'm comparing Amar'e ability to create his own shot when in single coverage with LeBron and Wade's ability to do the same thing.

  LeBron and Wade generally start with the ball on the perimeter (really, they start with the ball in the backcourt) and break down defenses with their dribble penetration. Neither of them play particularly well without the ball, and you'd be having them *both* play without the ball. I'll be absolutely thrilled if they take the ball out of LeBron's hands and put it in Miller's, but I'm not optimistic.

[indeedproceed]

You're drastically oversimplifying an offense into extremes. They both move without the ball way more than you're implying. What you're saying is akin to saying Boston only shoots jumpshots, and they can't score any other way.

[BballTim]

You're drastically oversimplifying an offense into extremes. They both move without the ball way more than you're implying. What you're saying is akin to saying Boston only shoots jumpshots, and they can't score any other way.

  You're drastically underestimating how much Wade and James dominate the ball. How often do they go into the offense with one or both of them in the game and someone else controlling the ball?

  When the big three came together for Boston they dominated the team, and they combined to use about 50% of the team's possessions. The big three for the Heat use almost 70%. Look at the way PP/KG/RA dominated our offense at that time and imagine them using 35-40% more possessions. Also imagine Ray being much more ball dominant and less of a spot up shooter. That's the Heat.

[Moranis]

You're drastically oversimplifying an offense into extremes. They both move without the ball way more than you're implying. What you're saying is akin to saying Boston only shoots jumpshots, and they can't score any other way.

  You're drastically underestimating how much Wade and James dominate the ball. How often do they go into the offense with one or both of them in the game and someone else controlling the ball?

  When the big three came together for Boston they dominated the team, and they combined to use about 50% of the team's possessions. The big three for the Heat use almost 70%. Look at the way PP/KG/RA dominated our offense at that time and imagine them using 35-40% more possessions. Also imagine Ray being much more ball dominant and less of a spot up shooter. That's the Heat.

A good portion of that is who their respective teammates are.  The only other players on the Heat to play in at least 70 games were Mario Chalmers, James Jones, Big Z, and Joel Anthony.  Not exactly the cream of the crop.  If Haslem and Miller were healthy the whole year, they would have played a bigger part in the offense, and certainly would have helped the team defense and rebounding a great deal.  

It also didn't help the Heat that Wade missed the entire preseason.  They spent the first month of the season just trying to figure out how to play together and then the injuries really started to take hold in the other positions (and to their big 3 themselves). After the first 17 games, when all 3 played at the same time, the Heat were virtually unbeatable until the last 3 games of the Finals.  Adding talent in Miller and Haslem, will only make them better overall.  Throw in a free agent center (like Chandler, Nene, or even Dalembert) and the rest of the league will be in trouble for a long time.

[BballTim]

You're drastically oversimplifying an offense into extremes. They both move without the ball way more than you're implying. What you're saying is akin to saying Boston only shoots jumpshots, and they can't score any other way.

  You're drastically underestimating how much Wade and James dominate the ball. How often do they go into the offense with one or both of them in the game and someone else controlling the ball?

  When the big three came together for Boston they dominated the team, and they combined to use about 50% of the team's possessions. The big three for the Heat use almost 70%. Look at the way PP/KG/RA dominated our offense at that time and imagine them using 35-40% more possessions. Also imagine Ray being much more ball dominant and less of a spot up shooter. That's the Heat.

A good portion of that is who their respective teammates are.  The only other players on the Heat to play in at least 70 games were Mario Chalmers, James Jones, Big Z, and Joel Anthony.  Not exactly the cream of the crop.  If Haslem and Miller were healthy the whole year, they would have played a bigger part in the offense, and certainly would have helped the team defense and rebounding a great deal.  

It also didn't help the Heat that Wade missed the entire preseason.  They spent the first month of the season just trying to figure out how to play together and then the injuries really started to take hold in the other positions (and to their big 3 themselves). After the first 17 games, when all 3 played at the same time, the Heat were virtually unbeatable until the last 3 games of the Finals.  Adding talent in Miller and Haslem, will only make them better overall.  Throw in a free agent center (like Chandler, Nene, or even Dalembert) and the rest of the league will be in trouble for a long time.

  Two of the 3 or 4 most ball dominant players since MJ are on the same team in their primes. That's what you see and why you see it. If you're saying that they're going to put the ball in Miller or Bibby's hands more often, I'll make the claim that the team will be worse offensively, not better. Spoelstra's goal isn't to get the most out of Miller's versatility but to get the most from Wade and James. And Haslem might help your offense or rebounding, but *not* your team defense, especially paired with Bosh.

[bfrombleacher]

You're drastically oversimplifying an offense into extremes. They both move without the ball way more than you're implying. What you're saying is akin to saying Boston only shoots jumpshots, and they can't score any other way.

  You're drastically underestimating how much Wade and James dominate the ball. How often do they go into the offense with one or both of them in the game and someone else controlling the ball?

  When the big three came together for Boston they dominated the team, and they combined to use about 50% of the team's possessions. The big three for the Heat use almost 70%. Look at the way PP/KG/RA dominated our offense at that time and imagine them using 35-40% more possessions. Also imagine Ray being much more ball dominant and less of a spot up shooter. That's the Heat.

A good portion of that is who their respective teammates are.  The only other players on the Heat to play in at least 70 games were Mario Chalmers, James Jones, Big Z, and Joel Anthony.  Not exactly the cream of the crop.  If Haslem and Miller were healthy the whole year, they would have played a bigger part in the offense, and certainly would have helped the team defense and rebounding a great deal.  

It also didn't help the Heat that Wade missed the entire preseason.  They spent the first month of the season just trying to figure out how to play together and then the injuries really started to take hold in the other positions (and to their big 3 themselves). After the first 17 games, when all 3 played at the same time, the Heat were virtually unbeatable until the last 3 games of the Finals.  Adding talent in Miller and Haslem, will only make them better overall.  Throw in a free agent center (like Chandler, Nene, or even Dalembert) and the rest of the league will be in trouble for a long time.

  Two of the 3 or 4 most ball dominant players since MJ are on the same team in their primes. That's what you see and why you see it. If you're saying that they're going to put the ball in Miller or Bibby's hands more often, I'll make the claim that the team will be worse offensively, not better. Spoelstra's goal isn't to get the most out of Miller's versatility but to get the most from Wade and James. And Haslem might help your offense or rebounding, but *not* your team defense, especially paired with Bosh.

@ BBallTim
So would you say that there is a chance the Heat are hitting their ceiling here? Maybe they'd improve at the center and that's it? Their two best players can't do much without the ball, which is exacerbated by the lack of structure on offense thanks to Spoelstra.

Jordan can catch and shoot, be a threat in the post with that turnaround. I'm not even a fan of MJ but he is a threat without the ball, the same can't be said for Wade or James.

@ Moranis
Yes, I remember hearing about the Heat having a stretch where they were seemingly unbeatable. They were beating up on the lower half of the league and not getting it done against +.500 teams. The playoff run saw James and Wade getting unusually hot on the perimeter. Call me a hater but I say they aren't  'virtually unbeatable' and possibly won't be until one of their two best players play more friendly with each other (and hopefully when they do, their age will be catching up).

[Moranis]

@ Moranis
Yes, I remember hearing about the Heat having a stretch where they were seemingly unbeatable. They were beating up on the lower half of the league and not getting it done against +.500 teams. The playoff run saw James and Wade getting unusually hot on the perimeter. Call me a hater but I say they aren't  'virtually unbeatable' and possibly won't be until one of their two best players play more friendly with each other (and hopefully when they do, their age will be catching up).

After the 9-8 start, the Heat were 46-11 in the regular season games when all of their big 3 played (just over 66 wins over 82 games).  And over half of those losses came in a 2 week period from Feb 24-Mar 8.  And they were 14-4 in the post season before losing the last 3 games. 

They will be a much better team the next time there is a NBA season if they can stay healthy.

And if by unusually hot you mean Wade shooting less then 25% from three and James shooting just under 37% from three, then yes they were unusually hot.  Also both were well below their season averages from the field in the first three rounds.

[BballTim]

@ BBallTim
So would you say that there is a chance the Heat are hitting their ceiling here? Maybe they'd improve at the center and that's it? Their two best players can't do much without the ball, which is exacerbated by the lack of structure on offense thanks to Spoelstra.

  I don't think that they're hitting their ceiling, but I think that improvements will have to come more from James and Wade improving/changing their games than incremental improvements to players that play small roles on offense.

Jordan can catch and shoot, be a threat in the post with that turnaround. I'm not even a fan of MJ but he is a threat without the ball, the same can't be said for Wade or James.

  Jordan was never known for his mid-range game or outside shooting when he was younger. He had that patented move when he was older where he'd drive towards a defender and put his shoulder into their chest and create enough space for those jumpers, but he didn't do a lot of that when he was younger. James isn't really too old to improve and mature as a player, even Wade isn't unskilled enough that he can't become more of a spot up shooter.

[StartOrien]

James isn't really too old to improve and mature as a player

He isn't, though he really hasn't shown a willingness to do so.

The age old anecdote is that Michael Jordan focused on something new each summer to work tirelessly on, and that's how he continued to evolve as a player.

Lebron has a list full of things that he could work on - mid range jumper, post game stand out - and he's come back each year effectively the same. At the very least one of the two best in the league, but the game really isn't evolving.

[cman88]

exactly, lebrons basically the same player he was when he entered the league 6years ago....

The heat's dismantling of Celtics/ Chicago wasnt a type of play they could sustain...Lebron hitting fadeaway jumpers against the bulls, hitting 3's with pierce in his face..

The Mavs gave the heat the same shots the celtics and bulls did. The only difference is that they missed them..the law of averages caught up with them...now, its hard to believe that they can sustain that level of play

I dont buy the notion that the heat will be much better if they sign X, Y or Z....because Lebron and wade THRIVE with the ball in their hands. a better PG or roleplayers wont make a difference. basically they will stand around watching wade/lebron play iso for 25seconds and then catch/shoot.

when you look at the bulls, you can see they need a quality SG, or someone who can take the scoring burden off of Rose(it was supposed to be boozer, but he was kind of a flop)..they sign vince carter or jason richardson during the offseason and they can knock off the heat

with the heat, the changes arent personnel changes they need to make, but lebron/wade HAVE to change the way they play...and until they do so, save for some godly performances by wade/lebron in a series or 2, I think teams know how to play them...keep them out of the paint, force them into jumpers

[BballTim]

]Even if we would have beaten the Heat last year, the Heat will be much better next year (if there is a season) and we will be worse without making signficant moves.  The Celtics are an old team and it showed down the stretch against the Heat.  The C's just flat out faded in the 4th quarter of virtually every game because the old guys just didn't have the legs to play playoff basketball at a high rate night in and night out.  That will only get worse next year.

  The only way the Heat will be significantly better next year is if Wade or LeBron start shooting like Ray, or at least like PP. They dominate the game too much for role players to have a big impact. The old guys on the Celts don't have the legs to play every night without a healthy Rondo or a healthy center. They didn't look appreciably older last year than in 2010 when they went to the finals.

So a healthy Haslem and Miller and Bibby for a full season won't make the Heat better.  I found that incredibly hard to believe.  A full season of playing together won't make the Heat better.  I found that incredibly hard to believe.  You know what else I found incredibly hard to believe, that the Heat won't sign a center in the offseason.  Sure Lebron and Wade will dominate the ball, but the rest of the team will be better.

  If you want to say the Heat will be better, that's not incredibly hard to believe. But I find it incredibly hard to believe that such smallish changes will make the Heat a *much* better team. Clearly LeBron and Wade will dominate the ball, and this will marginalize the impact of upgrades to role players.

How is getting your 4th and 5th best player healthy a smallish change?  I mean look at how much different the Lakers are when Bynum plays then when Bynum doesn't play.  If Ray Allen and Jermaine O'Neal didn't play, how much worse would the Celtics be.  Haslem and Miller are excellent players for that team as they do things that the team is lacking.

  By the way, a good example of what I'm talking about is Rondo. He made a significant jump from 07-08 to 08-09. He went from 11/4/5 to 12/5/8, his PER went from 15.6 to 18.8, his TS% went from .515 to .543, his assist% went from 28 to 40 and he was 2nd team all-defense and in the conversation for an all-star spot. He became a bigger part of the offense, not in terms of scoring but in terms of ballhandling. What was the end result of having the 4th best player improve significantly and having his role expand? When KG hurt his knee the team's record was almost identical to the year before.

  The Heat's team is *much* more centered around it's big three than Boston's ever was. You're hoping for improvements to players who contribute much less to the Heat than Rondo did for the Celts. But you're expecting the Heat to be *significantly* better based on these smallish changes to players with marginal roles on offense. It's just not going to happen.