I hate to admit it but getting Howard means trading Rondo for Chris Paul

[Roy H.]

Things are getting too personal here, and are bumping up against the line of personal attacks.  Please debate more civilly, or more on.

[BballTim]

Did you see him destroy the Lakers single handed this year?
Was that not good enough a 'return to form'?
the guy is a monster on offense and defense.

  I saw him destroy the Lakers in a couple of games and look less spectacular in their 4 losses. But I guess a good 4-5 game stretch is all the proof anyone should need that he's fully recovered...

That's a fair enough point, but I could list more than 4 or 5 games in one playoff series where he killed everyone.
Here's a question:
do you think that NBA GM's would worry about his knee in any sort of trade where they could acquire him?

I know the answer.

  Ok, I'll bite. CP3's about a year and a half away from a knee injury, his numbers were significantly worse last year than his pre-injury numbers and many descriptions of his knee use the phrase bone on bone. Would GMs worry about his knee at all?

[soap07]

I'm frankly just as concerned with Rondo's body as I am with Paul's. Rondo has a ton of heart but he gets hammered down low and has his share of injuries that slow him down. His style of play (and lack of ability to hit free throws) makes him more susceptible to get banged up than your average point guard.

[Chris]

I'm frankly just as concerned with Rondo's body as I am with Paul's. Rondo has a ton of heart but he gets hammered down low and has his share of injuries that slow him down. His style of play (and lack of ability to hit free throws) makes him more susceptible to get banged up than your average point guard.

And more importantly, I think Paul can be significantly more effective at less than 100% than Rondo can be at less than 100%.

Rondo's greatest, and most important skills are his energy and athleticism.  If he loses those, then he is a very average (at best) player.  Paul on the other hand still has the ability to be a well above average player, even when he is a step or two slow.

[BballTim]

I'm frankly just as concerned with Rondo's body as I am with Paul's. Rondo has a ton of heart but he gets hammered down low and has his share of injuries that slow him down. His style of play (and lack of ability to hit free throws) makes him more susceptible to get banged up than your average point guard.

  I agree with this somewhat but I also think that it's no coincidence that last year was his least healthy and he had very little time off last summer. He was playing 40+ minutes a game through mid-June and probably spent at least half of his brief off-season in USA basketball camp.

[deekhead]

Its reasonably clear that the posters here, who are denigrating probably one of the best clutch performers of all time, Dennis Johnson, know little about him.

The comparisons between DJ, who never, ever shied away from the big moment and Rondo could not be more stark.

When the game was on the line, you wanted the ball in DJ's hands to make a play.

Can anyone say the same about Rondo?

DH

  Who said DJ wasn't clutch?

When the game was on the line, DJ turned into MONEY! (LBird called him the best teammate he ever had.) CP3 does too.

To my bigger point regarding bottom line comparisons, when the game is on the line, does anyone here want the ball in Rondo's hands?

DH

[hwangjini_1]

Its reasonably clear that the posters here, who are denigrating probably one of the best clutch performers of all time, Dennis Johnson, know little about him.

The comparisons between DJ, who never, ever shied away from the big moment and Rondo could not be more stark.

When the game was on the line, you wanted the ball in DJ's hands to make a play.

Can anyone say the same about Rondo?

DH

  Who said DJ wasn't clutch?

When the game was on the line, DJ turned into MONEY! (LBird called him the best teammate he ever had.) CP3 does too.

To my bigger point regarding bottom line comparisons, when the game is on the line, does anyone here want the ball in Rondo's hands?

DH

i would want the ball in rondo's hands ..... so that he can pass it to KG for a dunk. 

but yes, your point is well made and well taken on rondo. i think the world of rondo and am happy the celtics have him. but being his fan doesnt mean i dont see his limitations.

[BballTim]

Its reasonably clear that the posters here, who are denigrating probably one of the best clutch performers of all time, Dennis Johnson, know little about him.

The comparisons between DJ, who never, ever shied away from the big moment and Rondo could not be more stark.

When the game was on the line, you wanted the ball in DJ's hands to make a play.

Can anyone say the same about Rondo?

DH

  Who said DJ wasn't clutch?

When the game was on the line, DJ turned into MONEY! (LBird called him the best teammate he ever had.) CP3 does too.

To my bigger point regarding bottom line comparisons, when the game is on the line, does anyone here want the ball in Rondo's hands?

DH

  While I've stated multiple times that DJ was clutch (in fact he's known more for that than anything else), it's also true that the reason DJ took many of those clutch shots was because when he was on the court with players like Bird, McHale and Parrish, he was frequently left alone by his defender, who was helping on other players.

  Nobody would want the ball in Rondo's hands with his ft%. But that's far different than your claim that Rondo shies away from big moments. He's come up big in plenty of big games, and he's also made a lot of big plays down the stretch. A few baskets, plenty of passes, big steals, big rebounds (including winning battles for the ball with Dwight Howard). He doesn't really disappear like you're saying.

  If it's late in a game and PP's bringing the ball up and him and Ray and KG are going to have the ball in their hands, why is Rondo still in the game? Why not replace him with a player who can help stretch the floor and hit their free throws? The obvious answer is that Rondo's more likely to help the Celts win than that player. Doc obviously realizes this, even if others don't.

[hwangjini_1]

Its reasonably clear that the posters here, who are denigrating probably one of the best clutch performers of all time, Dennis Johnson, know little about him.

The comparisons between DJ, who never, ever shied away from the big moment and Rondo could not be more stark.

When the game was on the line, you wanted the ball in DJ's hands to make a play.

Can anyone say the same about Rondo?

DH

  Who said DJ wasn't clutch?

When the game was on the line, DJ turned into MONEY! (LBird called him the best teammate he ever had.) CP3 does too.

To my bigger point regarding bottom line comparisons, when the game is on the line, does anyone here want the ball in Rondo's hands?

DH

  While I've stated multiple times that DJ was clutch (in fact he's known more for that than anything else), it's also true that the reason DJ took many of those clutch shots was because when he was on the court with players like Bird, McHale and Parrish, he was frequently left alone by his defender, who was helping on other players.

  Nobody would want the ball in Rondo's hands with his ft%. But that's far different than your claim that Rondo shies away from big moments. He's come up big in plenty of big games, and he's also made a lot of big plays down the stretch. A few baskets, plenty of passes, big steals, big rebounds (including winning battles for the ball with Dwight Howard). He doesn't really disappear like you're saying.

  If it's late in a game and PP's bringing the ball up and him and Ray and KG are going to have the ball in their hands, why is Rondo still in the game? Why not replace him with a player who can help stretch the floor and hit their free throws? The obvious answer is that Rondo's more likely to help the Celts win than that player. Doc obviously realizes this, even if others don't.

the point of DJ being "clutch" due to being on the floor with bird, et al is not completely on target.

i used to watch DJ play when he was in seattle. he was no less clutch then. and while other options of course were on the court, i saw him sink amazing shots to win/tie the game even with people near/guarding him.

bird, et al helped, but DJ was clutch.

[deekhead]

When the game is on the line, Rondo becomes simply a role player. He doesn't disappear. He's still out on the court.

Maybe he will set a pik or snag a rebound or make a steal but he is not the playmaker. He's not directing the offense. He is not demanding the ball to make something happen. It's not Rondo's team anymore.

That's what DJ did so well. That's what CP3 does now. They live(d) for these moments.

Rondo continues to have value but not as the PG-with-ball-in-hand eager to make the big play.

Poor FT shooting serves a useful purpose. It takes the ball out of his hands.

Rondo appears quite okay with the reduced role and the reduced responsibility.

That's my take FWIW.

DH

[paulcowens]

When the game is on the line, Rondo becomes simply a role player. He doesn't disappear. He's still out on the court.

Maybe he will set a pik or snag a rebound or make a steal but he is not the playmaker. He's not directing the offense. He is not demanding the ball to make something happen. It's not Rondo's team anymore.

....

I mean, come on, it's ridiculous, right?  It's true enough that Rondo is not the guy you want making the last second shot;  on a team with the likes of Paul Pierce and Ray Allen, how could he be?   But how many times have we seen him make the big-time last second pass that wins games, often on alley-oops to Garnett?  How many times have we seen him make other big time plays in the crunch.  To speak of 'mere roleplayers' making key steals, grabbing key rebounds, making key passes just shows the usual extreme bias towards shooters.  I have to wonder:  was Bill Russell usually the one taking the last minute shot, back when the Cs won 11 championships in 13 years?  I have to doubt it.   

Again and again Rondo has been the guy who rallied his team in big games.  The kid seems to live for big games.  There is no more clutch player than Rondo.

That's not to denigrate DJ, who was very, very clutch.  We all know that, I think.

[Celtics18]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/johnsde01.html

I love DJ.  He is a Celtic legend and an integral part of some great teams of the '80s, but, let's be honest, his numbers don't exactly blow you away.

I'm not going to say he wasn't clutch, but on a team with Bird, Parish, and McHale, I don't believe he was exactly the number one option in crunch time.

Also, DJ's free throw shooting and jump shot improved over his NBA career.  I believe that Rondo can do the same. 

[PosImpos]

Did you see him destroy the Lakers single handed this year?
Was that not good enough a 'return to form'?
the guy is a monster on offense and defense.

  I saw him destroy the Lakers in a couple of games and look less spectacular in their 4 losses. But I guess a good 4-5 game stretch is all the proof anyone should need that he's fully recovered...

That's a fair enough point, but I could list more than 4 or 5 games in one playoff series where he killed everyone.
Here's a question:
do you think that NBA GM's would worry about his knee in any sort of trade where they could acquire him?

I know the answer.

  Ok, I'll bite. CP3's about a year and a half away from a knee injury, his numbers were significantly worse last year than his pre-injury numbers and many descriptions of his knee use the phrase bone on bone. Would GMs worry about his knee at all?

Would they worry about it?  Yes.

Would they still jump at a chance to acquire him for anything less than a superstar?

Absolutely.

[Celtics4ever]

A lot of people don't even know DJ won a championship without Bird either in Seattle.   I bet some of the young fans don't even know of this matter.  DJ had a rep of being difficult prior to coming here but he was a winner everywhere he went.   

When Larry speaks so highly of you, too, it speaks volumes to me.   Didn't he say that DJ was the best he ever played with?   I believe he said this in 1990 in his book DRIVE.   This was not some post humous nicety.

[BballTim]

Did you see him destroy the Lakers single handed this year?
Was that not good enough a 'return to form'?
the guy is a monster on offense and defense.

  I saw him destroy the Lakers in a couple of games and look less spectacular in their 4 losses. But I guess a good 4-5 game stretch is all the proof anyone should need that he's fully recovered...

That's a fair enough point, but I could list more than 4 or 5 games in one playoff series where he killed everyone.
Here's a question:
do you think that NBA GM's would worry about his knee in any sort of trade where they could acquire him?

I know the answer.

  Ok, I'll bite. CP3's about a year and a half away from a knee injury, his numbers were significantly worse last year than his pre-injury numbers and many descriptions of his knee use the phrase bone on bone. Would GMs worry about his knee at all?

Would they worry about it?  Yes.

Would they still jump at a chance to acquire him for anything less than a superstar?

Absolutely.

  I think you'd have to have a fairly loose definition of a superstar for this to be true.