I hate to admit it but getting Howard means trading Rondo for Chris Paul

[BballTim]

We became a team that collected stars.

We got Pierce, Allen and KG in their primes and added them to unproven players Rondo, Perkins, T Allen, Powe and rookies Davis and Pruitt and then signed vet minimum type players Eddie House, James Posey, and Scott Pollard to add to a vet minimum player that Ainge had overcompensated by millions, Brian Scalabrine.

Before that season started pundits, including Bob Ryan were killing Ainge for what they considered a horrible 4-15 thinking we had collected three star players and a bunch of nobodies.

But GMs don't do that. They collect the stars and add young bodies in hopes to develop around those stars and sign some cheap vets to fill in roles. Its not mindless adding of players without any thought.

What Miami did was brilliant last year as is what the Celtics did in 2007-08 and what the Knicks are trying to do now. This is a star driven league and having star players will make your team better and if the other parts click, you can have championship aspirations.

Sorry if you and Yogi don't like the reality of the situation but in the summer of 2007 we became a team that collected stars. Why? Because it works. 

There was one main difference.


Celtics put together a team that fit together perfectly.


Miami and NY did not.




With that said, a team can be built around Paul with great fits just like they did in 2007.  And, there is nothing about his game that says he will not fit into Rondo slot just well.

He is a match for Rondo in terms of passing and defense.  He is better shooter and scorer that adds another dimension to the team that could push them to a new level. 

  I would disagree that he's a match in terms of passing and defense, but he's probably as close as you'll get. He is a better shooter and does add another dimension but we also edge that much closer to being a team comprised entirely of jump shooters.

Better assist to turnover ratio.


1 time 1st team defense.
2 time 2nd team defense.


The Celtics would not lose anything in terms of defense and passing. 

  Better assist to turnover ratio, fewer assists for shots at the rim. Paul makes more careful passes, Rondo gets us easier shots.

  Rondo's 2 time 1st team defense, twice finishing top 5 in dpoy voting (none for CP3). Rondo was first team defense and 5th in dpoy last year, CP3 was 2nd team and tied for 12th in dpoy. Paul's good on defense but Rondo's better.

[BballTim]

We became a team that collected stars.

We got Pierce, Allen and KG in their primes and added them to unproven players Rondo, Perkins, T Allen, Powe and rookies Davis and Pruitt and then signed vet minimum type players Eddie House, James Posey, and Scott Pollard to add to a vet minimum player that Ainge had overcompensated by millions, Brian Scalabrine.

Before that season started pundits, including Bob Ryan were killing Ainge for what they considered a horrible 4-15 thinking we had collected three star players and a bunch of nobodies.

But GMs don't do that. They collect the stars and add young bodies in hopes to develop around those stars and sign some cheap vets to fill in roles. Its not mindless adding of players without any thought.

What Miami did was brilliant last year as is what the Celtics did in 2007-08 and what the Knicks are trying to do now. This is a star driven league and having star players will make your team better and if the other parts click, you can have championship aspirations.

Sorry if you and Yogi don't like the reality of the situation but in the summer of 2007 we became a team that collected stars. Why? Because it works. 

  Haha. Again you ignore the part about how well the pieces you collect fit together, and then top it off by claiming that people who disagree with you are ignoring reality. Miami was a team whose performance as a team was less than the sum of it's individual talent in spite of "the reality of the situation".

No I am not ignoring it. The Celtics of 2007-08 got lucky to have everything fall in place like it did by collecting as many stars at one time like they did. Its never happened before or since in one year.

Miami went to the Finals beating Boston and Chicago. Exactly how poorly did their pieces fit together. Boston had no injuries in 2007-08. They were basically injury free except for the scrub Pollard. Miami lost Miller and Haslem for almost the entire year yet still went all the way to the Finals.

  They collected stars whose games fit well together whether you want to admit it or not. Miami had arguably the best player in the game and (arguably) two of the top 3 yet didn't achieve as much as the Celts not because the players didn't buy in, but because they didn't fit well together.

Completely disagree with your assessment of Miami so I will end our discussion there since we will have to agree to disagree. They fit great together, they just will take more time to gel. That the Big Three in Boston gelled in one year is again, a minor miracle. It's almost never happened before if ever.

  Aside from their two best players duplicating each others offensive games and not having skillsets to complement each other well I'd agree with you.

[wdleehi]

We became a team that collected stars.

We got Pierce, Allen and KG in their primes and added them to unproven players Rondo, Perkins, T Allen, Powe and rookies Davis and Pruitt and then signed vet minimum type players Eddie House, James Posey, and Scott Pollard to add to a vet minimum player that Ainge had overcompensated by millions, Brian Scalabrine.

Before that season started pundits, including Bob Ryan were killing Ainge for what they considered a horrible 4-15 thinking we had collected three star players and a bunch of nobodies.

But GMs don't do that. They collect the stars and add young bodies in hopes to develop around those stars and sign some cheap vets to fill in roles. Its not mindless adding of players without any thought.

What Miami did was brilliant last year as is what the Celtics did in 2007-08 and what the Knicks are trying to do now. This is a star driven league and having star players will make your team better and if the other parts click, you can have championship aspirations.

Sorry if you and Yogi don't like the reality of the situation but in the summer of 2007 we became a team that collected stars. Why? Because it works. 

There was one main difference.


Celtics put together a team that fit together perfectly.


Miami and NY did not.




With that said, a team can be built around Paul with great fits just like they did in 2007.  And, there is nothing about his game that says he will not fit into Rondo slot just well.

He is a match for Rondo in terms of passing and defense.  He is better shooter and scorer that adds another dimension to the team that could push them to a new level. 

  I would disagree that he's a match in terms of passing and defense, but he's probably as close as you'll get. He is a better shooter and does add another dimension but we also edge that much closer to being a team comprised entirely of jump shooters.

Better assist to turnover ratio.


1 time 1st team defense.
2 time 2nd team defense.


The Celtics would not lose anything in terms of defense and passing. 

  Better assist to turnover ratio, fewer assists for shots at the rim. Paul makes more careful passes, Rondo gets us easier shots.

  Rondo's 2 time 1st team defense, twice finishing top 5 in dpoy voting (none for CP3). Rondo was first team defense and 5th in dpoy last year, CP3 was 2nd team and tied for 12th in dpoy. Paul's good on defense but Rondo's better.

You only get an assist if the ball goes in the basket.  There is no loss in terms of passing there except the drop in TOs help the defense.


And defensively, they have been the top two defensive PGs in the past few seasons.  Rondo plays with a better team defense.  The difference between the two is minimal and can be argued either way.  



But in terms of shooting and scoring, Paul is much better.  

[BballTim]

You only get an assist if the ball goes in the basket.  There is no loss in terms of passing there except the drop in TOs help the defense.

  Yes, you only get an assist if the ball goes in the basket, but the ball has to go *in* the basket. If you just use the fg% from 82games, 50 passes for layups or dunks will net you 65 points, 50 passes for jump shots will net you 46 points. You might have fewer turnovers on the easier passes for jump shots, but you burn a lot more possessions on missed shots. Those missed shots hurt the defense, similar to how fewer turnovers helps the defense.

[Kane3387]

We became a team that collected stars.

We got Pierce, Allen and KG in their primes and added them to unproven players Rondo, Perkins, T Allen, Powe and rookies Davis and Pruitt and then signed vet minimum type players Eddie House, James Posey, and Scott Pollard to add to a vet minimum player that Ainge had overcompensated by millions, Brian Scalabrine.

Before that season started pundits, including Bob Ryan were killing Ainge for what they considered a horrible 4-15 thinking we had collected three star players and a bunch of nobodies.

But GMs don't do that. They collect the stars and add young bodies in hopes to develop around those stars and sign some cheap vets to fill in roles. Its not mindless adding of players without any thought.

What Miami did was brilliant last year as is what the Celtics did in 2007-08 and what the Knicks are trying to do now. This is a star driven league and having star players will make your team better and if the other parts click, you can have championship aspirations.

Sorry if you and Yogi don't like the reality of the situation but in the summer of 2007 we became a team that collected stars. Why? Because it works. 

  Haha. Again you ignore the part about how well the pieces you collect fit together, and then top it off by claiming that people who disagree with you are ignoring reality. Miami was a team whose performance as a team was less than the sum of it's individual talent in spite of "the reality of the situation".

No I am not ignoring it. The Celtics of 2007-08 got lucky to have everything fall in place like it did by collecting as many stars at one time like they did. Its never happened before or since in one year.

Miami went to the Finals beating Boston and Chicago. Exactly how poorly did their pieces fit together. Boston had no injuries in 2007-08. They were basically injury free except for the scrub Pollard. Miami lost Miller and Haslem for almost the entire year yet still went all the way to the Finals.

  They collected stars whose games fit well together whether you want to admit it or not. Miami had arguably the best player in the game and (arguably) two of the top 3 yet didn't achieve as much as the Celts not because the players didn't buy in, but because they didn't fit well together.

Completely disagree with your assessment of Miami so I will end our discussion there since we will have to agree to disagree. They fit great together, they just will take more time to gel. That the Big Three in Boston gelled in one year is again, a minor miracle. It's almost never happened before if ever.

I think you're both partially right.  The "fit" wasn't perfect, and caused a lot of growing pains on that team.  However, the talent was there, and because of that talent the team made the Finals, and was an overwhelming success.  Had Lebron not choked, playing far below his normal standards, the Heat would be champions right now.

Agreed Miami didn't lose because the pieces didn't "fit"... They lost because the team and more so LBJ choked. The team choked in game 2. LBJ coked in games 4-5 for the most part.

The whole not fitting thing was true at the beginning of the season, but not at the end. This team destroyed the eastern conference like it was a joke. They simply couldn't take the spotlight the Finals shines on players.

Honestly this was the same thing for Dallas but more so Dirk in 2006. I think if they are healthy Miami wins it all next year. Sadly I think LBJ puts on a show in next year's finals.

[FallGuy]

Can't believe this is even controversial.

Rondo might be a top-5 PG but Paul is a top-5 player in the league. Yes, Rondo's a flashy assist guy but Paul creates  more offense (more shots, more good shots, better floor spacing, etc.) because he has more weapons in his arsenal. And unlike Rondo, he's consistent game-to-game and unafraid to attack the basket.

The only consideration here is Paul's go-forward health. Which isn't a major concern, if I'm up to date on that topic.

Otherwise, it's a total home run if Ainge can hold of Paul.

[BballTim]

Can't believe this is even controversial.

Rondo might be a top-5 PG but Paul is a top-5 player in the league. Yes, Rondo's a flashy assist guy but Paul creates  more offense (more shots, more good shots, better floor spacing, etc.) because he has more weapons in his arsenal. And unlike Rondo, he's consistent game-to-game and unafraid to attack the basket.

The only consideration here is Paul's go-forward health. Which isn't a major concern, if I'm up to date on that topic.

Otherwise, it's a total home run if Ainge can hold of Paul.

  Rondo attacks the basket more than CP3 does.

[BballTim]

Agreed Miami didn't lose because the pieces didn't "fit"... They lost because the team and more so LBJ choked. The team choked in game 2. LBJ coked in games 4-5 for the most part.

The whole not fitting thing was true at the beginning of the season, but not at the end. This team destroyed the eastern conference like it was a joke. They simply couldn't take the spotlight the Finals shines on players.

Honestly this was the same thing for Dallas but more so Dirk in 2006. I think if they are healthy Miami wins it all next year. Sadly I think LBJ puts on a show in next year's finals.

  If Wade were a great outside shooter it might open up the lane more, so LeBron would have less defenders between him and the rim, so he'd be less likely to "choke". When I was watching the games LeBron wasn't missing a ton of shots he normally likes, he was forced into taking shots that he wasn't comfortable taking. Part choke, but definitely part not fitting.

[ScoobyDoo]

Point taken Roy - it is a bit of a stretch to call Chris Paul and Derron "me first" points. Of the three being discussed...

1. Chris Paul would be hard to pass up. I like him and his game. I am sure the Celts of the last four years, with Paul at the helm would have been "electric". And he is much more of a scorer than Rondo obviously

2. D. Rose - I like some aspects of his game - but he reminds me of a Dwayne Wade ball dominant type of game in a point guard's body. I like a Nash / Kidd / Stockton type point a bit better if you can get one.

3. Derron Williams - I like his game, but somehow there is just something about his head that doesn't work for me somehow.

Look, the bottom line is I think any one of them would be sick in Boston - any of the four.

However, Rondo just seems like "Celtic" to me. Some guys just shouldn't be traded. It's like it would come back to bite you somehow. I know this is now getting superstitious...but...

I think Rondo - if Ainge puts the right team around him again, will bring us a lot of rings.

It's kind of like KG should have been in Green his entire career..He just seems like a born Celtic.

I have a real hard time giving up guys like this.

Bird, Cowens, Havlicek, Russell, Jo Jo, McHale, Chief, KG, Pierce, Rondo and yes, even Perkins.

Trust me, I'd have a Chris Paul jersey if he came to Boston but ultimately I think I just wouldn't trade Rondo.

Hondo...Rondo - I don't know...some things should just be left alone.

It's like we'd get Paul and then he'd blow his knee out and never be the same player again...

Ros3e and Williams I just wouldn't really even consider for Rondo.      

[Roy H.]

Agreed Miami didn't lose because the pieces didn't "fit"... They lost because the team and more so LBJ choked. The team choked in game 2. LBJ coked in games 4-5 for the most part.

The whole not fitting thing was true at the beginning of the season, but not at the end. This team destroyed the eastern conference like it was a joke. They simply couldn't take the spotlight the Finals shines on players.

Honestly this was the same thing for Dallas but more so Dirk in 2006. I think if they are healthy Miami wins it all next year. Sadly I think LBJ puts on a show in next year's finals.

  If Wade were a great outside shooter it might open up the lane more, so LeBron would have less defenders between him and the rim, so he'd be less likely to "choke". When I was watching the games LeBron wasn't missing a ton of shots he normally likes, he was forced into taking shots that he wasn't comfortable taking. Part choke, but definitely part not fitting.

Logically, your point makes sense.  However, Lebron wasn't forced into bad shots.  Lebron *had* good shots.  However, he'd just pass them up, in order to pass to Joel Anthony or something.  It was a very bizarre performance, and can only be called a choke.

But, back on topic, Chris Paul doesn't have a history of choking, and there's no reason to feel like he couldn't be a good fit.  I agree that he'd be more likely to attract Howard, as well.  The thought of a "big three + CP3 + Howard" combo, if for only one year, is too good to pass up.

[BballTim]

Agreed Miami didn't lose because the pieces didn't "fit"... They lost because the team and more so LBJ choked. The team choked in game 2. LBJ coked in games 4-5 for the most part.

The whole not fitting thing was true at the beginning of the season, but not at the end. This team destroyed the eastern conference like it was a joke. They simply couldn't take the spotlight the Finals shines on players.

Honestly this was the same thing for Dallas but more so Dirk in 2006. I think if they are healthy Miami wins it all next year. Sadly I think LBJ puts on a show in next year's finals.

  If Wade were a great outside shooter it might open up the lane more, so LeBron would have less defenders between him and the rim, so he'd be less likely to "choke". When I was watching the games LeBron wasn't missing a ton of shots he normally likes, he was forced into taking shots that he wasn't comfortable taking. Part choke, but definitely part not fitting.

Logically, your point makes sense.  However, Lebron wasn't forced into bad shots.  Lebron *had* good shots.  However, he'd just pass them up, in order to pass to Joel Anthony or something.  It was a very bizarre performance, and can only be called a choke.

But, back on topic, Chris Paul doesn't have a history of choking, and there's no reason to feel like he couldn't be a good fit.  I agree that he'd be more likely to attract Howard, as well.  The thought of a "big three + CP3 + Howard" combo, if for only one year, is too good to pass up.

  Historically, good shots for LeBron are shots at the rim or threes when he's hot. Dallas wasn't letting him get to the rim and (choke, I guess) his fts weren't that great.

  CP3 may or may not be a better draw for DH, I don't know. I thought there were recent threads about trying to get Josh Smith because him and Rondo and DH were buddies. Paul would be a good fit although we might not have much scoring at the rim with him here (NO was 28th or so). I just think the difference would be a lot less dramatic than people are expecting.

[Kane3387]

Can't believe this is even controversial.

Rondo might be a top-5 PG but Paul is a top-5 player in the league. Yes, Rondo's a flashy assist guy but Paul creates  more offense (more shots, more good shots, better floor spacing, etc.) because he has more weapons in his arsenal. And unlike Rondo, he's consistent game-to-game and unafraid to attack the basket.

The only consideration here is Paul's go-forward health. Which isn't a major concern, if I'm up to date on that topic.

Otherwise, it's a total home run if Ainge can hold of Paul.

  Rondo attacks the basket more than CP3 does.

Not when it matters. He doesn't attack at the end of games because he doesn't want to get fouled. He shoots free throws like Ben Wallace. Honestly Rondo's inability to shoot free throws is way worse then his poor shooting. For a pg it's unforgivable the way he shoots from the line, and that aspect of his game hurts the Celtics more than anything else.

CP3 can make free throws.

[BballTim]

Can't believe this is even controversial.

Rondo might be a top-5 PG but Paul is a top-5 player in the league. Yes, Rondo's a flashy assist guy but Paul creates  more offense (more shots, more good shots, better floor spacing, etc.) because he has more weapons in his arsenal. And unlike Rondo, he's consistent game-to-game and unafraid to attack the basket.

The only consideration here is Paul's go-forward health. Which isn't a major concern, if I'm up to date on that topic.

Otherwise, it's a total home run if Ainge can hold of Paul.

  Rondo attacks the basket more than CP3 does.

Not when it matters. He doesn't attack at the end of games because he doesn't want to get fouled. He shoots free throws like Ben Wallace. Honestly Rondo's inability to shoot free throws is way worse then his poor shooting. For a pg it's unforgivable the way he shoots from the line, and that aspect of his game hurts the Celtics more than anything else.

CP3 can make free throws.

  This I generally agree with. He really needs to get his ft% into the 70s, preferably the mid 70s.

[Kane3387]

Point taken Roy - it is a bit of a stretch to call Chris Paul and Derron "me first" points. Of the three being discussed...

1. Chris Paul would be hard to pass up. I like him and his game. I am sure the Celts of the last four years, with Paul at the helm would have been "electric". And he is much more of a scorer than Rondo obviously

2. D. Rose - I like some aspects of his game - but he reminds me of a Dwayne Wade ball dominant type of game in a point guard's body. I like a Nash / Kidd / Stockton type point a bit better if you can get one.

3. Derron Williams - I like his game, but somehow there is just something about his head that doesn't work for me somehow.

Look, the bottom line is I think any one of them would be sick in Boston - any of the four.

However, Rondo just seems like "Celtic" to me. Some guys just shouldn't be traded. It's like it would come back to bite you somehow. I know this is now getting superstitious...but...

I think Rondo - if Ainge puts the right team around him again, will bring us a lot of rings.

It's kind of like KG should have been in Green his entire career..He just seems like a born Celtic.

I have a real hard time giving up guys like this.

Bird, Cowens, Havlicek, Russell, Jo Jo, McHale, Chief, KG, Pierce, Rondo and yes, even Perkins.

Trust me, I'd have a Chris Paul jersey if he came to Boston but ultimately I think I just wouldn't trade Rondo.

Hondo...Rondo - I don't know...some things should just be left alone.

It's like we'd get Paul and then he'd blow his knee out and never be the same player again...

Ros3e and Williams I just wouldn't really even consider for Rondo.      

The putting "the team around Rondo" thing is the deal I don't like. His inability to score means you need quality scorers, who are efficient. You would also need leaders because that is not something you can count on Rondo for all the time. This team complements rondo incredibly. To think we can duplicate that again in the next 3-4 years is asking a lot of Ainge. It would mean high draft choices that you don't miss on and hit at least one homerun on.

Look at OKC. Let's say Rondo is your Westbrook. That means you have to get yourself a KD type guy because Rondo isn't really capable of being the number one guy. His game isn't complete enough. Then you need to get your Harden or number three guy. So much depends on where the lottery let's you pick at and who is coming out in those drafts. Unless you think Green can be that three guy then it's a little easier, but you are still looking for what most teams are - that elite difference maker or superstar.

[Kane3387]

Agreed Miami didn't lose because the pieces didn't "fit"... They lost because the team and more so LBJ choked. The team choked in game 2. LBJ coked in games 4-5 for the most part.

The whole not fitting thing was true at the beginning of the season, but not at the end. This team destroyed the eastern conference like it was a joke. They simply couldn't take the spotlight the Finals shines on players.

Honestly this was the same thing for Dallas but more so Dirk in 2006. I think if they are healthy Miami wins it all next year. Sadly I think LBJ puts on a show in next year's finals.

  If Wade were a great outside shooter it might open up the lane more, so LeBron would have less defenders between him and the rim, so he'd be less likely to "choke". When I was watching the games LeBron wasn't missing a ton of shots he normally likes, he was forced into taking shots that he wasn't comfortable taking. Part choke, but definitely part not fitting.

Logically, your point makes sense.  However, Lebron wasn't forced into bad shots.  Lebron *had* good shots.  However, he'd just pass them up, in order to pass to Joel Anthony or something.  It was a very bizarre performance, and can only be called a choke.

But, back on topic, Chris Paul doesn't have a history of choking, and there's no reason to feel like he couldn't be a good fit.  I agree that he'd be more likely to attract Howard, as well.  The thought of a "big three + CP3 + Howard" combo, if for only one year, is too good to pass up.

That would arguably be the best starting 5 ever assembled in the 60+ years of the NBA. Garnett and Howard on defense would be like Ray Lewis playing with Lawrence Taylor. It would almost be a flawless starting 5 with maybe the only thing you could dislike being the lack of elite athleticism at the wings.