Western Conference Semis: Kings (1) Vs Warriors (5)

[Roy H.]

Clearly, Lebron had a bad Finals but his history in series other than that is exceptional given who he played with and against.

vs SAS 22.0 PPG, 7.0 RPG, 6.8 APG, 0.5 BPG, 1.0 SPG, 35.6/20.0/69.0

Two Finals appearances, two choke jobs.  If the Kings make it that far, I'm assuming Lebron collapses yet again.  However, up until that point, I agree:  he's been a very good performer (although a ton of educated observers seem to think he quit against the Celtics, too).

I would agree this year was a choke job, though as i pointed out, Marion and chandler did an excellent job defensively.

But I think the first finals series against the spurs they were just incredibly overmatched and probably shouldnt have been there in the first place if lebron wasnt out of his mind good.

I remember watching that game against detroit where Lebron scored the last 25 points or something.  I remember actually liking lebron after that.  [dang], that seems crazy to say

Lebron carried his team to the Finals.  When he got there, he performed terribly.  How can 22 points, 35.6% shooting, and 20% 3PT shooting be anything other than a choke job?

Both times Lebron has been to the Finals, he's curled up into a ball on the court, sucking his thumb in the fetal position.  That could change in the future, but his past performance suggests he's seriously outmatched on that stage.

In the Conference Semis, though, he should be good.

[action781]

But the problem is, my gut wants to say GS.  See, that was a great point you just brought up.  BUT, before the 2011 playoffs started, Miami had good defenders 2-5 also and a typical NBA fan would have asked how could Dallas possibly score enough to beat Miami in a 7 game series.  

Woah...wait right there.

2 through 5?

Bosh is a passable defender at the 4 spot and often gets lit up by the upper half of the better PFs in the league.

Where is the plus defender at the 5 for Miami?

Miami had plus defenders at the 2 and 3 spot...that's it. The media(ESPN, ABC, TNT) pushed the magnificence of the defense and players around Wade and Lebron but the reality was if LeBron and Wade weren't both great, that team wasn't great and the rest of the crew was as average or blow average as everyone thought they were in the pre-season.

Also, I just can't see how people can compare this Warriors team with inexperienced, unproven players(with the exception of Camby and Miller who are both approaching over the hill status) with the All-Star, deeply experience, former All-NBA type players that surrounded Dirk in Dallas.

In 2008 people thought the Big 3 in Boston too ol;d and they proved everyone wrong for 4 years. last year people thought Dallas too old. Wrong.

Fact is experience, deep playoff experience wins in the post season and other than Dirk, the Warriors have none.

Yeah, I'd say Miami was good defensively 2-5.

At the 2, if Wes Matthews is "plus" then D-Wade is "exponential".

At the 4, if Bosh is "passable" then Millsap is "passable".  Opposing PF's averaged a PER/48 of 21.0 against Millsap and 14.5 against Bosh this past season. (82games.com)

At the 5, Joel Anthony is a good defender.  At least from what I saw I'd say he was.  If not, was he out there on the court for his offense?  He allowed a PER/48 of 14.1 against his counterparts past season where his counterpart shot an eFG% of .480 which is pretty impressive against centers. (82games.com)

[Who]

I don't think LeBron choked against San Antonio. He was just outmatched against San Antonio's defense.

Tim Duncan should have won the Defensive Player of the Year that season and Bruce Bowen absolutely hounded LeBron on the perimeter. Plus, Popovich and San An's tough overall team defense.

At that point in his career, LeBron hadn't even started to play defense yet. His jump shot was also far worse than today, hitting only 39.6% (eFG%) of his attempts. He wasn't an MVP caliber player at that juncture in his career.

[nickagneta]

I don't think this can be stressed enough.

EXPERIENCE IN THE PLAYOFFS WINS IN THE PLAYOFFS.

Unless there is transcendent young superstars involved.

OKC with Durant and Westbrook is the exception. Not the rule and they are transcendent superstars.

Curry, Young, Young, Batum, Brewer, Lee. These aren't playoff experienced warriors(pardon the pun). They aren't transcendent superstars. They are pretty good young players with NO PLAYOFF EXPERIENCE and are mostly role players.

This Warriors team is not the Mavs. Not close.

Kidd was the best PG in the league for years and led two teams to 2 Finals.

Terry is a perennial 6th Man of the Year candidate with tons of playoff experience and Finals experience.

Marion was an All-NBA caliber player and considered by some a top 15 SF of All-Time.

Chandler is a top defensive center in the league with years of playoff experience

The Warriors have no one comparable to these players and what they bring to the table in experience and leadership.

[Rondo2287]

Clearly, Lebron had a bad Finals but his history in series other than that is exceptional given who he played with and against.

vs SAS 22.0 PPG, 7.0 RPG, 6.8 APG, 0.5 BPG, 1.0 SPG, 35.6/20.0/69.0

Two Finals appearances, two choke jobs.  If the Kings make it that far, I'm assuming Lebron collapses yet again.  However, up until that point, I agree:  he's been a very good performer (although a ton of educated observers seem to think he quit against the Celtics, too).

I would agree this year was a choke job, though as i pointed out, Marion and chandler did an excellent job defensively.

But I think the first finals series against the spurs they were just incredibly overmatched and probably shouldnt have been there in the first place if lebron wasnt out of his mind good.

I remember watching that game against detroit where Lebron scored the last 25 points or something.  I remember actually liking lebron after that.  [dang], that seems crazy to say

Lebron carried his team to the Finals.  When he got there, he performed terribly.  How can 22 points, 35.6% shooting, and 20% 3PT shooting be anything other than a choke job?

Because the Spurs were just able to key in on him and lock him down at that point in his career before he further improved his game.  what was that series, Timmy, Manu, and Tony Parker against Lebron, Sideshow bob, and eric snow?

[mgent]

Nobody listened to me when I created that "in an alternate universe where Miami makes the Finals, LeBron will choke" thread half-way through the season, but 6 months later people seem to be coming around  

[Kane3387]

Hey, you can rely on youtube clips and small sample sizes if you want, or you can take a look at what happened in the Finals. If Lebron kept up his regular season dominance throughout the playoffs in his career, he'd have a ring by now.

These aren't the Finals and you team is nowhere near as good, experienced or defensively oriented as that Mavs team.

Other than the series versus the Mavs here are lebron's stats for EVERY OTHER playoff series he has played in:

2011

vs CHI 25.8 PPG, 7.8 RPG, 6.6 APG, 1.8 BPG, 2.4 SPG 44.7/38.9/86.4 shooting %s
vs BOS 28.0 PPG, 8.2 RPG, 3.6 APG, 1.8 BPG, 1.8 SPG 47.2/43.5/66.7
vs PHI 24.3 PPG, 10.6 RPG, 6.2 APG, 0.8 BPG, 0.8 SPG, 46.9/25.0/82.0

2010

vs BOS 26.8 PPG, 9.3 RPG, 7.2 APG, 1.3 BPG, 2.2 SPG, 44.7/26.9/74.3
vs CHI 31.8 PPG, 9.2 RPG, 8.2 APG, 2.4 BPG, 1.2 SPG, 56.7/54.2/72.0

2009

vs ORL 38.5 PPG, 8.3 RPG, 8.0 APG, 1.2 BPG, 1.2 SPG, 48.7/29.7/74.5
vs ATL 33.8 PPG, 8.3 RPG, 6.0 APG, 0.5 BPG, 2.5 SPG, 55.6/48.1/69.6
vs DET 32.0 PPG, 11.3 RPG, 7.5 APG, 0.8 BPG, 1.5 SPG, 50.6/17.6/79.7

2008

vs BOS 26.7 PPG, 6.4 RPG, 7.6 APG, 1.3 BPG, 2.1 SPG, 35.5/23.1/75.6
vs WAS 29.8 PPG, 9.5 RPG, 7.7 APG, 1.3 BPG, 1.3 SPG, 48.3/29.0/70.1

2007

vs SAS 22.0 PPG, 7.0 RPG, 6.8 APG, 0.5 BPG, 1.0 SPG, 35.6/20.0/69.0
vs DET 25.7 PPG, 9.2 RPG, 8.5 APG, 0.5 BPG, 2.5 SPG, 44.9/35.7/74.1
vs NJ  24.7 PPG, 7.3 RPG, 8.5 APG, 0.3 BPg, 1.2 SPG, 42.3/30.8/75.4
vs WAS 27.8 PPG, 8.5 RPG, 7.5 APG, 0.8 BPG, 1.8 SPG, 42.5/26.7/81.3

2006

vs DET 26.6 PPG, 8.6 RPG, 6.0 APG, 0.7 BPG, 1.4 SPG, 44.2/27.6/72.7
vs WAS 35.7 PPG, 7.5 RPG, 5.7 APG, 0.7 BPG, 1.3 SPG, 51.0/38.2/74.6 


Clearly, Lebron had a bad Finals but his history in series other than that is exceptional given who he played with and against.

Most superduperstars like have a bad playoff series and go on to be Champions. Magic and Dirk to name two.

I think the odds of LBJ losing are more likely in the Conference Finals or Finals due to the expectations being too great, but not the Semi-Finals.

I also agree with Nick below.

Fact is experience, deep playoff experience wins in the post season and other than Dirk, the Warriors have none.

I think the experience of the Warriors isn't enough to beat LBJ here. I don't think he cracks in this series even against this Dirk led team.

[nickagneta]

Clearly, Lebron had a bad Finals but his history in series other than that is exceptional given who he played with and against.

vs SAS 22.0 PPG, 7.0 RPG, 6.8 APG, 0.5 BPG, 1.0 SPG, 35.6/20.0/69.0

Two Finals appearances, two choke jobs.  If the Kings make it that far, I'm assuming Lebron collapses yet again.  However, up until that point, I agree:  he's been a very good performer (although a ton of educated observers seem to think he quit against the Celtics, too).

I would agree this year was a choke job, though as i pointed out, Marion and chandler did an excellent job defensively.

But I think the first finals series against the spurs they were just incredibly overmatched and probably shouldnt have been there in the first place if lebron wasnt out of his mind good.

I remember watching that game against detroit where Lebron scored the last 25 points or something.  I remember actually liking lebron after that.  [dang], that seems crazy to say

Lebron carried his team to the Finals.  When he got there, he performed terribly.  How can 22 points, 35.6% shooting, and 20% 3PT shooting be anything other than a choke job?

Both times Lebron has been to the Finals, he's curled up into a ball on the court, sucking his thumb in the fetal position.  That could change in the future, but his past performance suggests he's seriously outmatched on that stage.

In the Conference Semis, though, he should be good.

You mean the 20 year old(maybe 21) Lebron with absolutely the worst team to ever appear in a Finals choked when he went up against the best franchise in the NBA over the last 15 year with maybe the best player in the league over the last 15 years in his prime while Lebron was a kid?

Pretty harsh criticism if you ask me.

I admit he choked this year. Absolutely. I can not say that about the super young Lebron or the older version he currently is in any other series he played in.




OMG, I need a shower I feel so dirty arguing in Lebron's defense.

Yuck.

[Roy H.]

I don't think LeBron choked against San Antonio. He was just outmatched against San Antonio's defense.

Tim Duncan should have won the Defensive Player of the Year that season and Bruce Bowen absolutely hounded LeBron on the perimeter. Plus, Popovich and San An's tough overall team defense.

At that point in his career, LeBron hadn't even started to play defense yet. His jump shot was also far worse than today, hitting only 39.6% (eFG%) of his attempts. He wasn't an MVP caliber player at that juncture in his career.

When a guy goes from 27 ppg and 48% shooting in the regular season, and puts up big numbers in the rest of the playoffs only to fall back to 22 ppg (in more minutes) on 36% shooting, I see it as choking.  Lebron only had one game in those Finals where he shot over 40%, and he nearly 6 turnovers per game for the series. 

22 points, 35% shooting, 6 turnovers per game.  That's choking, in my mind, especially for an All-NBA player (like Lebron was at the time).

[action781]

I don't think LeBron choked against San Antonio. He was just outmatched against San Antonio's defense.

Tim Duncan should have won the Defensive Player of the Year that season and Bruce Bowen absolutely hounded LeBron on the perimeter. Plus, Popovich and San An's tough overall team defense.

At that point in his career, LeBron hadn't even started to play defense yet. His jump shot was also far worse than today, hitting only 39.6% (eFG%) of his attempts. He wasn't an MVP caliber player at that juncture in his career.

I agree with Rondo and Who that I think Lebron was just crazy overmatched in that finals.  I didn't think it was a choke.  He was playing against the best team in the NBA with one of the best coaching staffs in the NBA who had 2 weeks to devote all their time to plan how to stop him.  And when they did, Cleveland had zero options to turn to for help.

[nickagneta]

Clearly, Lebron had a bad Finals but his history in series other than that is exceptional given who he played with and against.

vs SAS 22.0 PPG, 7.0 RPG, 6.8 APG, 0.5 BPG, 1.0 SPG, 35.6/20.0/69.0

Two Finals appearances, two choke jobs.  If the Kings make it that far, I'm assuming Lebron collapses yet again.  However, up until that point, I agree:  he's been a very good performer (although a ton of educated observers seem to think he quit against the Celtics, too).

But not you. I have read where you said that you think that claim fairly reaching and over exaggerated.

[Rondo2287]

I don't think LeBron choked against San Antonio. He was just outmatched against San Antonio's defense.

Tim Duncan should have won the Defensive Player of the Year that season and Bruce Bowen absolutely hounded LeBron on the perimeter. Plus, Popovich and San An's tough overall team defense.

At that point in his career, LeBron hadn't even started to play defense yet. His jump shot was also far worse than today, hitting only 39.6% (eFG%) of his attempts. He wasn't an MVP caliber player at that juncture in his career.

When a guy goes from 27 ppg and 48% shooting in the regular season, and puts up big numbers in the rest of the playoffs only to fall back to 22 ppg (in more minutes) on 36% shooting, I see it as choking.  Lebron only had one game in those Finals where he shot over 40%, and he nearly 6 turnovers per game for the series. 

22 points, 35% shooting, 6 turnovers per game.  That's choking, in my mind, especially for an All-NBA player (like Lebron was at the time).

I agree he played poorly Roy, but I think there is a distinction between being outmatched and choking.  Its like the 1980 us olympic hockey team.  They surprised everybody and made it to the medal round.  Would it have been choking if they lost to russia after the beat the czech repulic handily?

I dunno, i mean we agree he played poorly this probably just semantics, i dunno

[Roy H.]

You mean the 20 year old(maybe 21) Lebron with absolutely the worst team to ever appear in a Finals choked when he went up against the best franchise in the NBA over the last 15 year with maybe the best player in the league over the last 15 years in his prime while Lebron was a kid?

Come on. If any other player in the league saw his points per game and FG% drop precipitously, while his turnovers per game increased dramatically, we'd be saying the guy choked, regardless of his age.  As a 22 year old, he collapsed on the big stage, and as a 27 year old, he did the same thing.  At this point, it's a pattern.  Lebron chokes when the stakes are the highest.

[Roy H.]

Clearly, Lebron had a bad Finals but his history in series other than that is exceptional given who he played with and against.

vs SAS 22.0 PPG, 7.0 RPG, 6.8 APG, 0.5 BPG, 1.0 SPG, 35.6/20.0/69.0

Two Finals appearances, two choke jobs.  If the Kings make it that far, I'm assuming Lebron collapses yet again.  However, up until that point, I agree:  he's been a very good performer (although a ton of educated observers seem to think he quit against the Celtics, too).

But not you. I have read where you said that you think that claim fairly reaching and over exaggerated.

Yep, I think Lebron is going to choke, but not in the Semis.  That's not his MO. 

[nickagneta]

Well it was good to have some good playoff debate.

It was getting boring there for a couple days.

Win or lose, thanks top Champkind for being the great GM, opponent and guy that he is and for putting together a heck of a team. TP sir.