2011 CB Draft Western Playoffs: 1st Round

[dark_lord]

I think they're near-perfect complementary pieces.

co-sign

[Kane3387]

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/417354-nba-free-agency-drew-gooden-and-john-salmons-sign-with-the-bucks

Salmons was the spark that led the Bucks to their first playoff appearances in five seasons. The Bucks had a 22-8 record after Salmons' acquisition in February. He picked up much of the slack on the offensive end of the court after season-ending injuries to Michael Redd and Bogut.

22-8 is nothing to sneer at.

If you didn't see Andrew Bogut(notes) when you had a chance this season, well, I feel bad for you.

I can understand it. The Bucks aren't shown on national TV much. Jeff Van Gundy and klieg lights rarely show up in Milwaukee. So, unless you're local or a League Pass hound, you likely missed out.

You really missed out, by the way. Because Bogut was having a phenomenal season before he went down with an arm injury on Saturday night. So much so that, as we move farther and farther away from the All-Star Game, the fact that Bogut wasn't included on the Eastern roster seems all the more ridiculous. I will not be linking to my posts from the days leading up to it. We dropped the ball on that one.

Tom Haberstroh didn't drop the ball in this post. Right up the kilt and right to the point, Haberstroh comes through with a batch of stats to help illuminate just how brilliant Bogut was this season, especially defensively. Most impressive of all? Bogut's combined 3.82 blocks/steals/charges taken per game.

Not because of the total, mind you. Mainly because Andrew deserved Defensive Player of the Year consideration even if he halved that total. Quartered it, even. Quartered his draws.

Nobody moved side to side like Bogut this season. Dwight Howard(notes) came close, while still coming through with a heap of blocks and boards, but no player covered and showed and did all the little things defensively they don't really have stats for. If you drove on the Bucks this season, Bogut was there, changing your shot. Stopping your shot. Aiding you in the reconsideration of what you just attempted.

And it was so fun to watch. We've got a league full of big men that want to be Allen Iverson(notes) and while Bogut grew up wanting to be Toni Kukoc (who didn't?). The man played big. Played huge this season. Even missed a ton of his free throws, just to keep the stereotype going.

Bogut took 12 shots per game from inside 10 feet, Haberstroh points out. And that's for someone who didn't get the ball enough. He played close to the rim, changed things on both ends of the court and was the biggest reason why the Bucks are headed for the playoffs for the first time in four years. And he would have been the biggest reason behind a possible first-round "upset" of a team like the Hawks or Celtics. Bogut was that important, that effective, that dominant.

He's not going to be around for a while. Bogut's arm injury will take him out of the postseason, and that's an absolute shame. Because we won't be able to watch, and because Bogut and the Bucks will miss a chance to perform for the uninitiated in a nationally televised production. The Bucks are still going to stay in games -- they compete too hard, the team's particulars are still that good - but it won't be the same. Not without Bogut.

It's a downer, no doubt. Skeets and Tas asked me last week who we should be watching as the playoffs start to spark up, and the Bucks were the first thing that sprang to mind. Mainly because of Bogut. Mostly because of Bogut. It was pretty much all Bogut, and now that's all gone.

For a while, at least. Until 2010-11. He'll be fine by the fall. Watch him then. Pay attention while you have the chance.

That's from Kelly Dwyer, in response to a similar post from Tom Haberstroh (both names anyone who reads a lot of basketball should recognize as pretty legitimate writers).

Andrew Bogut was easily the Bucks best player in 09-10, and in 10-11.

You can't argue with 22-8... Salmons did the same thing in Chicago too. When Bogut went down they sped the game up which helped Jennings and others. Again 22-8 post Salmons acquisition when Bogut missed like half the games and the playoffs.

[KCattheStripe]

Lowry is enough to limit the damage done by Westbrook whereas Boozer is not enough to limit the damage done by Amar'e.

[indeedproceed]

For the life of me, I don't know anyone out there who watches as much basketball as we all say we do who wouldn't look at a Bogut/Stat frontline and a Kaman/Boozer frontline and not say "Wow, that Boozer/Kaman frontline is going to get killed."

Its the best scoring frontcourt player paired with the second best defensive center in the league vs two talented scoring frontcourt players that don't do much else well. Its like peanut butter and chocolate vs lamb and tunafish.

I've got the best player, the most spread-out talent, and the most well-rounded talent. Don't see how its not a slam-dunk.

In the interest of full discretion that article listed above is from 2010.

Not that it takes away from the point being made, as Bogut is relatively young, but it took me a little while to find the date.

Yeah, I used it for that reason, Kane was saying Bogut wasn't the best player on the Bucks team that made the playoffs...that was in 09-10. Jeez, Roy! Follow the conversation.

Also I think there is a big point in this debate people are missing: Kane is aware that he'll be my next victim in the playoffs, and positioned himself as my main rival in the Northwest. It is in his interest to say things that are flat out not true or willfully half-true to discredit the awesomeness that is my team. Stuff like

:

Now that right there is low lol.  

Everything I say I defend.

I think your team is overrated and I am not scared of it. I welcome a match-up with you and will go down defending my team. Whether the board agrees or not is oblivious.

Again I am not scared to face you. Truth be told I was going to vote for you to win in 7 games and still I believe that and will, but your team is no juggernaut. I think HCA helps you out here and SA has less leadership.

That being said I want to face you. I believe I said that a while back right after the draft. Still let's keep this friendly. It's supposed to be fun but winning this thing would not be nearly as nice if Utah didn't go through Portland to do it.

Haha, just callin it like I see it. Portland's comin, with their better talent, better fits, and better players for your old, tired, unmotivated, and Al Jefferson-y 'Jazz'.

[indeedproceed]

Alright, I'm going to move the rest of my house now. I'm not going to be able to defend much else, so Rebus, if you come back swingin, don't hurt me too much.

Also a reminder...votes get sent to 'CB Draft Voting'. If you send your vote to me, I'm just changing 'spurs' to 'blazers' and forwarding it on.

[StartOrien]

Yeah, I used it for that reason, Kane was saying Bogut wasn't the best player on the Bucks team that made the playoffs...that was in 09-10. Jeez, Roy! Follow the conversation.

KYLE LOWRY IS A JOKE OF A POINT GUARD

#wilsonchandlerequalschampionship

[Kane3387]

Chris Bosh . . . is much, much better defensively than Big Al. 

Chris Bosh's defense isn't much, much better than anybody's, including Spud Webb's.

Big Al's defense is perhaps being maligned a bit unfairly, based solely upon reputation.  Last year, he was actually fairly respectable there.  He was top-50 league wide in both post-up and P&R defense, and his points per possession was 70th overall.  That's very good.  Even acknowledging that stats can be misleading, it's unlikely that Big Al would put up defensive numbers like that if he was abjectly terrible.  He's probably about average as a man-to-man defensive center, with the numbers saying he's above-average.

(For comparison sake, Bosh was 149th in the NBA on post-ups.  There's a reason Shaq called him the Ru-Paul of big men; he can't defend bigger players down low, period.)

I'll accept that, but Chris Bosh's defense was lauded by a lot of people over the course of the season. I understand he gets over-powered, but that's not going to be an issue with KG.

My point is he won't improve the team defense or make Nene better. If anything Nene will be worse because he goes from Birdman and Martin to Bosh and Ed Davis..

Anyways the main point is, is Nene good enough to stop Jefferson? No so it's irrelevant.

I

like Big Al vs Nene. He averaged 17.5 pts, 9.3 rbds, and 3.3 blks against Nene this past year. Nene averaged 18 pts, 5.7 rbs, and 1.7 blks. Points were even but rebounding wasn't even close and that won't improve with KG in there.

[dark_lord]

For the life of me, I don't know anyone out there who watches as much basketball as we all say we do who wouldn't look at a Bogut/Stat frontline and a Kaman/Boozer frontline and not say "Wow, that Boozer/Kaman frontline is going to get killed."

advantage is definitely in stat/bogut, but i dont think boozer/kaman get killed either.  boozer/kaman are solid. as i stated in my vote, i think the advantage is on the spurs side with the other positions, which is enough to win the series.  close series imo, but in the spurs favor.

[indeedproceed]

I haven't really commented here (because I've been defending barbarian hordes in my own thread), but I will read it all before I vote, Promise.

[Kane3387]

Chris Bosh . . . is much, much better defensively than Big Al. 

Chris Bosh's defense isn't much, much better than anybody's, including Spud Webb's.

Big Al's defense is perhaps being maligned a bit unfairly, based solely upon reputation.  Last year, he was actually fairly respectable there.  He was top-50 league wide in both post-up and P&R defense, and his points per possession was 70th overall.  That's very good.  Even acknowledging that stats can be misleading, it's unlikely that Big Al would put up defensive numbers like that if he was abjectly terrible.  He's probably about average as a man-to-man defensive center, with the numbers saying he's above-average.

(For comparison sake, Bosh was 149th in the NBA on post-ups.  There's a reason Shaq called him the Ru-Paul of big men; he can't defend bigger players down low, period.)

Thank you. You can't just go off reputation.

[Who]

Nuggets,

How do you see the big man matchups playing? What's your plan there defenisvely? Who guards who?

Nene needs to be on Big Al. Neither Bosh or E.Davis can defend Big Al. They don't have the bulk to defend a post scorer of Big Al's ilk.
 
Bosh needs to be on Garnett. Ed Davis doesn't have enough size or experience to defend KG. Garnett's eyes will light up if he gets a chance to attack a young pup like Davis. Need to keep Bosh on KG. Nene could give a few minutes against KG but his plate his already fairly full with Big Al so Bosh will take the primary load.

So that means Ed Davis can only be used against Brendan Haywood.

Bosh can play more minutes than KG so he can give some minutes against Haywood too.

[indeedproceed]

Yeah, I used it for that reason, Kane was saying Bogut wasn't the best player on the Bucks team that made the playoffs...that was in 09-10. Jeez, Roy! Follow the conversation.

KYLE LOWRY IS A JOKE OF A POINT GUARD

#wilsonchandlerequalschampionship

haha. Get outta here. Leslie Knopes called. She said she needs Tom and Ron back ASAP, and that your project was just de-funded.

[Roy H.]

I think they're near-perfect complementary pieces.

co-sign

I agree, as well.  Ray will fit next to Rose.  My bigger question is Memphis' big men; I'm not in love with a Hibbert / Humphries combo.

[Kane3387]

Nene is a poor overall defender.

Not true.

Again this doesn't really matter when you look at how he played against Jefferson... See below. I won't post this again but this is them H2H last year. Both started at Center.

I like Big Al vs Nene. He averaged 17.5 pts, 9.3 rbds, and 3.3 blks against Nene this past year. Nene averaged 18 pts, 5.7 rbs, and 1.7 blks. Points were even but rebounding wasn't even close and that won't improve with KG in there.

[indeedproceed]

For the life of me, I don't know anyone out there who watches as much basketball as we all say we do who wouldn't look at a Bogut/Stat frontline and a Kaman/Boozer frontline and not say "Wow, that Boozer/Kaman frontline is going to get killed."

advantage is definitely in stat/bogut, but i dont think boozer/kaman get killed either.  boozer/kaman are solid. as i stated in my vote, i think the advantage is on the spurs side with the other positions, which is enough to win the series.  close series imo, but in the spurs favor.

You think that Harden is worse than Afflalo, and Delfino/WIlliams will be worse than a 36 (i'm guessing, could be more, could be less) year old Grant Hill and a very inconsistent Al-Farouq Aminu?

I get that Russell Westbrook is more talented a scorer than Kyle Lowry, but I don't think the difference between them is any bigger than the difference between Amar'e and Boozer. Lowry is a better defender, and a much better offensive player than anyone is giving him credit for.