Why is Bill Russell better than MJ?

[NickFaldo]

BballTim wins this debate. Jordan was like Sugar Ray Leonard waiting for Hagler to get old. Once Detroit finally lost it, Chicago was the only one left. Utah stunk. That was it for so-called competition.


I think Bird and Magic Johnson might have been the two greatest players of all time. Maybe Russell. The problem is Bill Russell always had phenomenal teammates and less teams to overcome in the playoffs. Then again other than the Lakers and one Philly team, Bird didn't have much to worry about either. It's a tough debate. I do think Magic's 5 rings were more impressive than Jordan's 6. I'd put Jordan and Bird in a tie or Bird slightly ahead based on rings, level of teammates, competition during their times. The truth is Magic Johnson beat on Larry 5-3. Magic's the reason the Laker's were able to get this close. Add in their five Minnesota titles and the ones they bought with Shaq and Kobe, and that's where we are, 17-16.

[ManUp]

After he wins that debate once and for all, I feel that the next step would be comparing Russell to the best big men of the 90's and seeing where he stands in comparison to their skill sets. My reasoning for this is that Michael Jordan dominated every player in his prime (the 90's) at every position on every team.

  Dominated who? Bird? Johnson? Duncan or Shaq? He didn't play anyone great. Take Magic out of the league and give Bird his health, the Celts would have been at least as dominant as the Bulls.

Barkley, Olajuwaon, Stockton & Malone, Drexler, Payton & Kemp, Miller, Penny & Shaq, Ewing, Robinson, Mourning, etc.

  First of all, putting any of those people besides possibly Hakeem in Magic's class is laughable. I think you basically made my point. Shaq doesn't count, by the way, because he was too young, the same way MJ's domination of all other players didn't begin until Magic and Bird tailed off due to injury/illness.

Magic & Bird are only Magic and Bird because of their accomplishments. The same can be said for Jordan. The reason those guys sound less impressive is due to their lack of accomplishments and that lack of accomplishment is in large part due to Jordan's presence. Anytime a guy dominates how Jordan or Russel dominated the level of competition they play will be questioned.

Also outside of Bird & Magic who was the amazing competition?

[BballTim]

After he wins that debate once and for all, I feel that the next step would be comparing Russell to the best big men of the 90's and seeing where he stands in comparison to their skill sets. My reasoning for this is that Michael Jordan dominated every player in his prime (the 90's) at every position on every team.

  Dominated who? Bird? Johnson? Duncan or Shaq? He didn't play anyone great. Take Magic out of the league and give Bird his health, the Celts would have been at least as dominant as the Bulls.

Barkley, Olajuwaon, Stockton & Malone, Drexler, Payton & Kemp, Miller, Penny & Shaq, Ewing, Robinson, Mourning, etc.

  First of all, putting any of those people besides possibly Hakeem in Magic's class is laughable. I think you basically made my point. Shaq doesn't count, by the way, because he was too young, the same way MJ's domination of all other players didn't begin until Magic and Bird tailed off due to injury/illness.

Magic & Bird are only Magic and Bird because of their accomplishments. The same can be said for Jordan. The reason those guys sound less impressive is due to their lack of accomplishments and that lack of accomplishment is in large part due to Jordan's presence. Anytime a guy dominates how Jordan or Russel dominated the level of competition they play will be questioned.

  I'd honestly be curious if you ever saw these people play. Bird and Magic accomplished what they did because of the kind of transcendent players that they were, it's not the other way around. The players you're talking about were no more on Bird and Magic's level than they were on Jordan's.

  Bird and Magic entered the league in the same year and in their first 8 years (before Bird's health issues kicked in) Magic had been to 6 Finals and Bird had been to 5. How many of those "great" players on your list could say the same?

  And as for "dominating like Jordan", consider the facts. He "temporarily retired" from Bball the year he turned 30, after 8 years in the league (plus an injured year). Up to that point, he had 3 titles, 3 trips to the finals, 3 MVPs and 7 top 5 MVP finishes.

  At the same age Bird, in 7 seasons, had 3 titles, 4 trips to the finals, 3 MVPs and 7 top 5 MVP finishes. Magic, at that age in 9 healthy years had 5 titles, 7 or so trips to the finals, 2 MVPs and 7 top 5 MVP finishes.

  Jordan had a longer healthy career than Magic or Bird but he was no more dominant than either of them. So basically, up until Bird got injured, Bird and Magic were both as dominant as MJ even though there was another player as dominant as MJ in the league at the same time.

[Moranis]

After he wins that debate once and for all, I feel that the next step would be comparing Russell to the best big men of the 90's and seeing where he stands in comparison to their skill sets. My reasoning for this is that Michael Jordan dominated every player in his prime (the 90's) at every position on every team.

  Dominated who? Bird? Johnson? Duncan or Shaq? He didn't play anyone great. Take Magic out of the league and give Bird his health, the Celts would have been at least as dominant as the Bulls.

Barkley, Olajuwaon, Stockton & Malone, Drexler, Payton & Kemp, Miller, Penny & Shaq, Ewing, Robinson, Mourning, etc.

  First of all, putting any of those people besides possibly Hakeem in Magic's class is laughable. I think you basically made my point. Shaq doesn't count, by the way, because he was too young, the same way MJ's domination of all other players didn't begin until Magic and Bird tailed off due to injury/illness.

Magic & Bird are only Magic and Bird because of their accomplishments. The same can be said for Jordan. The reason those guys sound less impressive is due to their lack of accomplishments and that lack of accomplishment is in large part due to Jordan's presence. Anytime a guy dominates how Jordan or Russel dominated the level of competition they play will be questioned.

  I'd honestly be curious if you ever saw these people play. Bird and Magic accomplished what they did because of the kind of transcendent players that they were, it's not the other way around. The players you're talking about were no more on Bird and Magic's level than they were on Jordan's.

  Bird and Magic entered the league in the same year and in their first 8 years (before Bird's health issues kicked in) Magic had been to 6 Finals and Bird had been to 5. How many of those "great" players on your list could say the same?

  And as for "dominating like Jordan", consider the facts. He "temporarily retired" from Bball the year he turned 30, after 8 years in the league (plus an injured year). Up to that point, he had 3 titles, 3 trips to the finals, 3 MVPs and 7 top 5 MVP finishes.

  At the same age Bird, in 7 seasons, had 3 titles, 4 trips to the finals, 3 MVPs and 7 top 5 MVP finishes. Magic, at that age in 9 healthy years had 5 titles, 7 or so trips to the finals, 2 MVPs and 7 top 5 MVP finishes.

  Jordan had a longer healthy career than Magic or Bird but he was no more dominant than either of them. So basically, up until Bird got injured, Bird and Magic were both as dominant as MJ even though there was another player as dominant as MJ in the league at the same time.

Just out of curiousity, what do you think MJ's career would have looked like if he had been blessed with multiple HOFers as teammates from day 1.  I mean Bird's first title in 80-81, he had 3 other HOFers on the roster.  Jordan never played with 3 other HOFers on the roster at any time in his career. 

Magic entered the league and the Lakers won the title his first year, but like Bird was playing with HOFers from day 1, including the MVP of the league in his rookie year.  If anything Magic is far more impressive then Bird as his rookie year the only future HOFers on the team were himself and Kareem. 


And Jordan went through the Pistons and the Lakers to win that first title and dominated them both.  And it isn't like Magic was past his prime.  He was 31, just finished 2nd in MVP voting (after winning it the previous two seasons), and was still a monster.  The Pistons were the two time defending NBA champions and all their guys were still in their prime.  The simple reality is that when Jordan was finally paired with another HOFer in his prime, he won, he won a lot, and he won big.

[BballTim]

After he wins that debate once and for all, I feel that the next step would be comparing Russell to the best big men of the 90's and seeing where he stands in comparison to their skill sets. My reasoning for this is that Michael Jordan dominated every player in his prime (the 90's) at every position on every team.

  Dominated who? Bird? Johnson? Duncan or Shaq? He didn't play anyone great. Take Magic out of the league and give Bird his health, the Celts would have been at least as dominant as the Bulls.

Barkley, Olajuwaon, Stockton & Malone, Drexler, Payton & Kemp, Miller, Penny & Shaq, Ewing, Robinson, Mourning, etc.

  First of all, putting any of those people besides possibly Hakeem in Magic's class is laughable. I think you basically made my point. Shaq doesn't count, by the way, because he was too young, the same way MJ's domination of all other players didn't begin until Magic and Bird tailed off due to injury/illness.

Magic & Bird are only Magic and Bird because of their accomplishments. The same can be said for Jordan. The reason those guys sound less impressive is due to their lack of accomplishments and that lack of accomplishment is in large part due to Jordan's presence. Anytime a guy dominates how Jordan or Russel dominated the level of competition they play will be questioned.

  I'd honestly be curious if you ever saw these people play. Bird and Magic accomplished what they did because of the kind of transcendent players that they were, it's not the other way around. The players you're talking about were no more on Bird and Magic's level than they were on Jordan's.

  Bird and Magic entered the league in the same year and in their first 8 years (before Bird's health issues kicked in) Magic had been to 6 Finals and Bird had been to 5. How many of those "great" players on your list could say the same?

  And as for "dominating like Jordan", consider the facts. He "temporarily retired" from Bball the year he turned 30, after 8 years in the league (plus an injured year). Up to that point, he had 3 titles, 3 trips to the finals, 3 MVPs and 7 top 5 MVP finishes.

  At the same age Bird, in 7 seasons, had 3 titles, 4 trips to the finals, 3 MVPs and 7 top 5 MVP finishes. Magic, at that age in 9 healthy years had 5 titles, 7 or so trips to the finals, 2 MVPs and 7 top 5 MVP finishes.

  Jordan had a longer healthy career than Magic or Bird but he was no more dominant than either of them. So basically, up until Bird got injured, Bird and Magic were both as dominant as MJ even though there was another player as dominant as MJ in the league at the same time.

Just out of curiousity, what do you think MJ's career would have looked like if he had been blessed with multiple HOFers as teammates from day 1.  I mean Bird's first title in 80-81, he had 3 other HOFers on the roster.  Jordan never played with 3 other HOFers on the roster at any time in his career.  

Magic entered the league and the Lakers won the title his first year, but like Bird was playing with HOFers from day 1, including the MVP of the league in his rookie year.  If anything Magic is far more impressive then Bird as his rookie year the only future HOFers on the team were himself and Kareem.  

  I often wonder why so few people can differentiate between future HOFer and future HOFer *in his prime*. Tiny had been first or 2nd team all nba 4 times in 5 years in the mid-70s and nothing in the 4 years before he'd played with Bird. He was averaging 14 a game when his career high was 34 a game. McHale was a rookie who averaged 10/4 a game. Shaq was a future HOFer on the Celts this year, just to put that claim in perspective.

  The point was, and still is, MJ didn't dominate the league any more than Bird or Magic did in their primes in spite of the fact that he didn't play against a similar player when he was having much of his success.

And Jordan went through the Pistons and the Lakers to win that first title and dominated them both.  And it isn't like Magic was past his prime.  He was 31, just finished 2nd in MVP voting (after winning it the previous two seasons), and was still a monster.  The Pistons were the two time defending NBA champions and all their guys were still in their prime.  The simple reality is that when Jordan was finally paired with another HOFer in his prime, he won, he won a lot, and he won big.

  The Pistons were done as a team. The two years they won the title they won 63 and 59 games, and dropped to 50 the year the Bulls beat them and 48 the next year. They struggled with the Hawks in the first round that year and lost twice to the Celts who were starting Brian Shaw and Kevin Gamble in the backcourt.

[BballTim]

BballTim wins this debate. Jordan was like Sugar Ray Leonard waiting for Hagler to get old. Once Detroit finally lost it, Chicago was the only one left. Utah stunk. That was it for so-called competition.


I think Bird and Magic Johnson might have been the two greatest players of all time. Maybe Russell. The problem is Bill Russell always had phenomenal teammates and less teams to overcome in the playoffs. Then again other than the Lakers and one Philly team, Bird didn't have much to worry about either. It's a tough debate. I do think Magic's 5 rings were more impressive than Jordan's 6. I'd put Jordan and Bird in a tie or Bird slightly ahead based on rings, level of teammates, competition during their times. The truth is Magic Johnson beat on Larry 5-3. Magic's the reason the Laker's were able to get this close. Add in their five Minnesota titles and the ones they bought with Shaq and Kobe, and that's where we are, 17-16.

  Switch the health of Worthy and McHale, though, and give Bird another healthy year or two and what does that do to Magic beating Larry 5-3? It could be reversed or worse.

[Neurotic Guy]

Game 7 in 1987 goes differently and the C's and Lakers are 4-4.  Len Bias lives and who knows how that effects championships and Bird's legacy?


I recall at various times watching Larry Bird, Magic Johnson and Dr. J that I had never seen anything like what these players could do.  All amazing.   Then, MJ comes along and he could shoot almost as well as Bird, make plays almost as well as Magic and do 'Dr. J' better than Dr. J.  In addition, he could dominate defensively (not like Russell, but in his own way was a force on defense).  As unbelievable as Bird and Magic were, MJ just seemed to me to be the most gifted and skilled athlete I'd ever seen.  At least until he started swinging a baseball bat.

[Finkelskyhook]

This isn't complicated.

Russell played on a level playing field and won more championships.

Jordan was officiated by his own rules and won less.  

Russell changed the game defensively.  Completely dominating defensively.  Jordan was a solid defensive player who was allowed to hack at will.

Russell won more championships against great competition.

Jordan won less against watered down competition.

[Carhole]

Game 7 in 1987 goes differently and the C's and Lakers are 4-4.  Len Bias lives and who knows how that effects championships and Bird's legacy?


I recall at various times watching Larry Bird, Magic Johnson and Dr. J that I had never seen anything like what these players could do.  All amazing.   Then, MJ comes along and he could shoot almost as well as Bird, make plays almost as well as Magic and do 'Dr. J' better than Dr. J.  In addition, he could dominate defensively (not like Russell, but in his own way was a force on defense).  As unbelievable as Bird and Magic were, MJ just seemed to me to be the most gifted and skilled athlete I'd ever seen.  At least until he started swinging a baseball bat.

There was no game 7 in 87.

I am the biggest Celtics fan around, but rewatch those series, I know most do not want to admit it but the lakers had better teams. They choked, hard in 84.

Bird got two titles against two Rockets teams that were good not great.

The only real unearned advantage the lakers had was that west was nowhere near as strong as the east so their road was consistently easier than the C's

[Bingbangbarros]

In regards to the number of championships, It was mentioned that Bird and Magic had better teammates and that is true. This, in my opinion, is very key when looking at how great Jordan was. Do you think Bird and Magic win championships with Jordan's supporting cast because I don't.

Imagine Jordan had at least 1 teammate to throw the ball to down low. Bird had McHale and Parish. Magic had Kareem and Worthy.  Jordan's best post threat was Cartwright I think.

Besides Jordan, I would take a player who plays really great offense and really great defense over Russel. Hakeem, Robinson, Shaq and Ewing could dominate the game at both ends in their primes.  I would take them easily over a 6'9'' Russel. I know this is controversial for everyone. Kareem probably makes the cut. I did not see him during his prime.

The year Chicago beat Detroit was legit. Detroit won 50 games. Isiah, Dumars and Rodman were each under 30. They were aging but Chicago was finally putting it together.

The Lakers won 58 games that year. Other than Magic, Teagle, Thompson and Drew, the team was under 30. Magic was still dominant at 31.

They beat the two really good teams in Portland and Phoenix the next two years. These titles were legit. Each team had all-stars and really good role players.

No one gives Jordan props for beating Seattle or Utah. The Seattle team had alot of talent, all stars in Kemp and Payton, Detlef, outside shooting and smarts. Utah had two of the greatest at the PG and PF positions, a great coach in Sloan and Hornecek was no slouch along with decent role players who made them a solid team.

Jordan played against other greats. I don't understand how people can't see or admit that. I understand that he received many calls in his day but he did beat teams that were very physical such as Detroit and New York.

[BballTim]

Game 7 in 1987 goes differently and the C's and Lakers are 4-4.  Len Bias lives and who knows how that effects championships and Bird's legacy?


I recall at various times watching Larry Bird, Magic Johnson and Dr. J that I had never seen anything like what these players could do.  All amazing.   Then, MJ comes along and he could shoot almost as well as Bird, make plays almost as well as Magic and do 'Dr. J' better than Dr. J.  In addition, he could dominate defensively (not like Russell, but in his own way was a force on defense).  As unbelievable as Bird and Magic were, MJ just seemed to me to be the most gifted and skilled athlete I'd ever seen.  At least until he started swinging a baseball bat.

  MJ was a great player and the best sg I've ever seen, but he was nowhere near the shooter Bird was. He also wasn't the passer or playmaker that Bird or Magic was. Better scorer, yes. Better defender, yes. Great shooter, not so much.

[BballTim]

In regards to the number of championships, It was mentioned that Bird and Magic had better teammates and that is true. This, in my opinion, is very key when looking at how great Jordan was. Do you think Bird and Magic win championships with Jordan's supporting cast because I don't.

  Bird and Magic would have trashed the 90s like MJ did. They might have had problems winning with Jordan's team in the 80s, but Jordan wouldn't have been winning very much in the 80s with that team either.

[Redz]

Game 7 in 1987 goes differently and the C's and Lakers are 4-4.  Len Bias lives and who knows how that effects championships and Bird's legacy?


I recall at various times watching Larry Bird, Magic Johnson and Dr. J that I had never seen anything like what these players could do.  All amazing.   Then, MJ comes along and he could shoot almost as well as Bird, make plays almost as well as Magic and do 'Dr. J' better than Dr. J.  In addition, he could dominate defensively (not like Russell, but in his own way was a force on defense).  As unbelievable as Bird and Magic were, MJ just seemed to me to be the most gifted and skilled athlete I'd ever seen.  At least until he started swinging a baseball bat.

  MJ was a great player and the best sg I've ever seen, but he was nowhere near the shooter Bird was. He also wasn't the passer or playmaker that Bird or Magic was. Better scorer, yes. Better defender, yes. Great shooter, not so much.

agreed

though jordan's shooting in the clutch seemed near perfect (not that Bird was a slouch in the clutch)

[Neurotic Guy]

Game 7 in 1987 goes differently and the C's and Lakers are 4-4.  Len Bias lives and who knows how that effects championships and Bird's legacy?


I recall at various times watching Larry Bird, Magic Johnson and Dr. J that I had never seen anything like what these players could do.  All amazing.   Then, MJ comes along and he could shoot almost as well as Bird, make plays almost as well as Magic and do 'Dr. J' better than Dr. J.  In addition, he could dominate defensively (not like Russell, but in his own way was a force on defense).  As unbelievable as Bird and Magic were, MJ just seemed to me to be the most gifted and skilled athlete I'd ever seen.  At least until he started swinging a baseball bat.

  MJ was a great player and the best sg I've ever seen, but he was nowhere near the shooter Bird was. He also wasn't the passer or playmaker that Bird or Magic was. Better scorer, yes. Better defender, yes. Great shooter, not so much.

Nowhere near?  I don't agree.  MJ became a remarkable shooter and playmaker.  No -- he wasn't as good a shooter as Bird but he averaged .497 for his career compared to Bird's .496 --  MJ was a darn good shooter.  Nor was he the playmaker Magic (or Bird) was -- but he managed to average over 5 assists per game for his career.  He became incredible at everything.

[Moranis]

In regards to the number of championships, It was mentioned that Bird and Magic had better teammates and that is true. This, in my opinion, is very key when looking at how great Jordan was. Do you think Bird and Magic win championships with Jordan's supporting cast because I don't.

  Bird and Magic would have trashed the 90s like MJ did. They might have had problems winning with Jordan's team in the 80s, but Jordan wouldn't have been winning very much in the 80s with that team either.

I'm not really so sure of that.  I think that 72 win team probably wins the title most years in the 80's.