Why is Bill Russell better than MJ?

[slamtheking]

It just boggles my mind that there's even a debate on this, must less one occurring on THE Celtics blog.

Jordan was a great player no doubt.  best shooting guard of all time.  I'm not going to equate titles to greatness even though just that measure makes it a landslide for Russell but what makes me put Jordan not only not at the top of the list but behind Magic and Bird as well is that Jordan led the vanguard of superstar players getting preferential treatment.  Far more so than Bird and Magic (I didn't get to see Russell play so I can't make any firsthand statements). 

Had Jordan had to complete without the luxury of phantom calls against his defender or refs permission to slap/hack at opponents with little chance of a foul call, he'd still be great but not regarded as highly as he currently is.

I'd go so far as to probably take Wilt over Jordan too if I was starting a team.

[CelticsFanNC]

  The entire decade of the 80's didn't need to have stacked teams from top to bottom, only at the top because the top teams are the ones those Bull's would have had to go through to win NBA titles which they probably couldn't have done.

  The 80's Celtics, Lakers, 76ers(early in the decade), Rockets, Pistons(later in the decade) and Spurs all had more talent on them from top to bottom then the 90's Bull's had.

  Jordan was great, no doubt about it.  Probably the greatest of all-time but he can still be the greatest of all-time and be over rated at the same time.  ESPN and other media outlets closed the book on this debate in the  late 90's which to me is completely ridiculous.

   In doing so they have basically said Jordan is the greatest of all-time and there is no debate about it. Sorry but Jordan isn't head and shoulders better then anyone else who has played the game of basketball.  That is media generated hype.  He may have been better then guys like Russell, Bird and Magic but the margin is minimal and worth debating.  The main reason he has been gifted that throne is due to his 6 NBA titles during the decade of the 90's so the strength of that decade or lack there of is certainly a relevant topic of discussion.

[CelticsFanNC]

  The 90's Jazz teams that Jordan Bull's beat twice in the NBA Finals consisted of Stockton, Malone and a cast of scrubs.  That team couldn't possibly have gotten out of the West during the 80's.  The same can be said about every team the Bull's faced in the NBA Finals.   None of the top teams of the 90's had nearly as much talent from top to bottom as the top teams of the 80s, or the top teams today have.  That includes Jordan's Bull's.

  I guess you cannot blame Jordan for beating up on inferior competition but to me you also cannot glorify him for it either which is exactly what the media has done and a generation of fans have bought into that BS hook line and sinker.

[slamtheking]

  The 90's Jazz teams that Jordan Bull's beat twice in the NBA Finals consisted of Stockton, Malone and a cast of scrubs.  That team couldn't possibly have gotten out of the West during the 80's.  The same can be said about every team the Bull's faced in the NBA Finals.   None of the teams of the 90's had nearly as much talent from top to bottom as the top teams of the 80s, or the top teams today have.  That includes Jordan's Bull's.

  I guess you cannot blame Jordan for beating up on inferior competition but to me you also cannot glorify him for it either which is exactly what the media has done and a generation of fans have bought into that BS hook line and sinker.

to add on to that thought, the fact Jordan had a team that racked up 72 wins in a season screams out that the league was incredibly watered down in talent.  The Bulls had 1 transcendent player, 1 all-star, a couple of good players (Rodman and Kukoc)  and a bunch of so-so role players.  The fact that team piled up that many wins can only be attributed to a lack of overall talent in the league that did not exist prior to that stretch and is not as drastic now.

For example, I don't think those Bulls teams would have beat the Laker or Celtic championship teams of the past 3 years.  I'm also not too sure they'd beat the current Heat either.  How many wins do you think the Bulls would have if Jordan and Pippen had to cover Wade and Lebron during a game/series.

[Celtics4ever]

The league markets whomever is the man at that time.  MJ was the man in his era.  Some drink the kool-aid and some do not.   While I think Jordan is an all time if not the all time great, I think the league was off on LeFail James.

Jordan made Phil Jackson great and he rode the fame.   He got the next best team with talent when he left the Bulls.  I think Phil was a genius at managing egos when he was motivared.  He wasn't this year but Jordan helped him more so than Bill did with Red.

[Celtics17]

I know it's politically incorrect, and if you dont think there is politics on this site think again, but Wilt is the best player ever in the NBA. The guy is the best rebounder by far the league has seen, 11 rebounding titles. He scored 60 or more points in games more then all other players ever combinded. Did you get that?

Say what you want about his competition level, lack of desire to win or whatever but if you put Wilt on the same C's team that Russ had and given the same level of health for players, you not only have the same or more championships but you have team records that would never be approached again.

[Cswin17]

Wilt stated in an interview that had he played on the Bill Russell Celtics team, they would not have won as many championships as they did.  He felt Russell was a better team player than he was, better suited to the Celtics style of play.  It is also a mistake to dismiss Russell's superior athleticism, height, speed and game psychology even in a comparison with MJ.  Russell was, at he apex of his Celtics career, considered the 7th best high jumper in  the world.  He was able to touch the basketball net with his feet and grab the top of the backboard. When playing against Wilt, he would block shots more than 12 feet in the air.  The NCAA doubled the width of the free throw lane itself, as Russell was so adept at getting the rebound, and also disallowed offensive goal tending due to his  dominance. He was an exceptionally fast runner, invited to the olympics not only for basketball, which he accepted, but for track, which he declined.  (He won two gold medals for basketball.) Though only 6' 9 1/2" tall, Russell had a 7'6" wingspan, prompting Red to say that players should be measured at the top of their extended arm rather than their head.  According to Red, Russell was also the only man with the reflexes and skill to be a true shot blocker, as opposed to a "shot swatter," as Red called them.  Russell controlled the ball with his block, often passing it simultaneously to a teammate, instead of merely "swatting" it away.  Jordan was an exceptional basketball player, but Russell transformed the sport.  BTW, saying that Russell is Dennis Rodman is like saying Kobe is Gerald Green, or MJ is Kedrick Brown.

[aporel#18]

Those Celtics and Lakers teams were great teams. We will never no that answer. I feel like people on this board are basing the 80's on the Celtics and Lakers. Like the entire 80's was just 12 nasty guys on every team and every team was just so deep,there were no mediocre or terrible teams. Well thats just not true. The Lakers and Celtics teams were rare stacked great teams. The entire 80's was not 20 incredibly deep teams.

 " If the 90's weren't watered down by expansion then why is it the only era in NBA history were one guy dominating the basketball was capable of winning multiple NBA titles?"

Just think, maybe Jordan was really that good. Therefore, his teams beat other teams.  Defenses designed to stop him could not. He also played great defense and he did pass the ball and make plays for others.

Another thing, this is not like Allen Iverson or someone like that dominating the ball all game. Jordan was efficient, consistent and was one one of greatest competitors ever. That makes a huge difference when you are talking about one guy dominating the ball.  He did it the right way.

Jordans Bulls did compete with Celtics in the mid 80's. He did not have Pippen or much help, and he was much younger. To totally dismiss the possiblity of ever winning against those Celtics or Lakers is crazy.

If Russell had the access to training that today's players have is he going to somehow turn into an offensive player or grow to 7 feet? I don't think so. Its a flawed argument.There are more players his size and taller, more atheletic that I can't see him having the same impact as he did in his time.

Jordan's greatness was built by Stern, by Nike, by ESPN. It was disgusting to watch him push his defender with no call, and getting phantom calls to another "and 1".

If Russell had the access to modern training, he'd be 20 or 30 more pounds of muscle and strength, or either extend his career for another 2 or 3 years.

But if Russell sold "the Russells" and got the "Russell's rules", he by himself could have won 13 MVPs and 13 DPOY and 13 NBA titles. And ESPN would change its name to RSPN.

Again, Jordan was a great player, but he got lucky when tragedy hit the Celtics. Aging and healthy Bird and McHale plus Reggie Lewis and Len Bias would've destroyed da Bulls. You can compare him to Mikan, Jabbar, Chamberlain, Baylor, and even Bird and Magic, but Bill Russell was at another level.

[Finkelskyhook]

Those Celtics and Lakers teams were great teams. We will never no that answer. I feel like people on this board are basing the 80's on the Celtics and Lakers. Like the entire 80's was just 12 nasty guys on every team and every team was just so deep,there were no mediocre or terrible teams. Well thats just not true. The Lakers and Celtics teams were rare stacked great teams. The entire 80's was not 20 incredibly deep teams.

 " If the 90's weren't watered down by expansion then why is it the only era in NBA history were one guy dominating the basketball was capable of winning multiple NBA titles?"

Just think, maybe Jordan was really that good. Therefore, his teams beat other teams.  Defenses designed to stop him could not. He also played great defense and he did pass the ball and make plays for others.

Another thing, this is not like Allen Iverson or someone like that dominating the ball all game. Jordan was efficient, consistent and was one one of greatest competitors ever. That makes a huge difference when you are talking about one guy dominating the ball.  He did it the right way.

Jordans Bulls did compete with Celtics in the mid 80's. He did not have Pippen or much help, and he was much younger. To totally dismiss the possiblity of ever winning against those Celtics or Lakers is crazy.

If Russell had the access to training that today's players have is he going to somehow turn into an offensive player or grow to 7 feet? I don't think so. Its a flawed argument.There are more players his size and taller, more atheletic that I can't see him having the same impact as he did in his time.

Jordan's greatness was built by Stern, by Nike, by ESPN. It was disgusting to watch him push his defender with no call, and getting phantom calls to another "and 1".

If Russell had the access to modern training, he'd be 20 or 30 more pounds of muscle and strength, or either extend his career for another 2 or 3 years.

But if Russell sold "the Russells" and got the "Russell's rules", he by himself could have won 13 MVPs and 13 DPOY and 13 NBA titles. And ESPN would change its name to RSPN.

Again, Jordan was a great player, but he got lucky when tragedy hit the Celtics. Aging and healthy Bird and McHale plus Reggie Lewis and Len Bias would've destroyed da Bulls. You can compare him to Mikan, Jabbar, Chamberlain, Baylor, and even Bird and Magic, but Bill Russell was at another level.

Outstanding post.

I share your disgust at the beginning of star calls which has turned a lot of of today's NBA games into a Trotters-Generals exhibitions.

[Jon]

Again, I'd bring up that the debate about the strength of Jordan's teams compared to Russell's (and Bird's and Magic's, etc.) means pretty much nothing to the larger debate here.  

Jordan played with poor teammates (outside of Pippen), but so did all of his opponents.  I mean look at that horrendous team that Hakeem piloted to the title in '94.  

I think the central question is how Jordan would've done had he had to play Bird and McHale or Johnson and Jabbar instead of Stockton and Malone, Kemp and Payton, or Barkley and KJ with the same mediocre cast of characters around them.  

Jordan was a special player--perhaps the greatest ever--but when the going got tough, he could take over a game in a way that only 10 or so other players have ever been able to.  The problem is, none of those other 10 players were in their prime when Jordan was.  

Sure, he could've hit big shot after big shot playing against Bird or Magic, but if Magic or Bird was there to also hit big shot, after big shot (rather than Karl Malone coughing the ball up in the last 10 seconds of the game), Jordan heroics wouldn't have always been enough.  

Another way to look at it would be to ask yourself how many titles Bird or Magic would've had if the other one didn't exist?  Or how many titles would Duncan have if Shaq was born 10 years earlier?  Or how many titles would Wilt have won if Russell was never born?  With his stats, he would easily be considered above Jordan.  

Jordan may be the greatest ever, but he got extremely lucky to play in an era where no other top 10 player of all time was in his prime.  Consequently, he had a much easier path to his titles than any other top 10 player in NBA history.  

[Bingbangbarros]

Wow, I guess the media had me and an entire generation of fans fooled. That is one strong media.

[td450]

It may be true that the typical big men today are more athletic than in the 60's, but is certainly not true that anyone in the league today is as athletic as Bill Russell (or Wilt, for that matter).

In track and field, he was once the seventh ranked high jumper in the world. He ran the 440 in under 50 seconds. There isn't anyone in the league today who is close.

[slamtheking]

Wow, I guess the media had me and an entire generation of fans fooled. That is one strong media.

yes, they are.  never underestimate the power and drive of the American marketing machine.

I feel sorry for anyone that did not get to see the NBA prior to the '88 season for themselves.  So much high quality basketball back then that makes long-time fans long for the old days of the NBA where you actually had to win titles to be considered great and not be annointed by the NBA before you had accomplished anything (ex. Bron).

[csfansince60s]

Wow, I guess the media had me and an entire generation of fans fooled. That is one strong media.

yes, they are.  never underestimate the power and drive of the American marketing machine.

I feel sorry for anyone that did not get to see the NBA prior to the '88 season for themselves.  So much high quality basketball back then that makes long-time fans long for the old days of the NBA where you actually had to win titles to be considered great and not be annointed by the NBA before you had accomplished anything (ex. Bron).

+1...Jordan was a media construct who benefited in so many ways from being in the right place at the right time.

He stood on the shoulders of giants (Russ, Wilt, Bird, Magic specifically and especially) to get where he was. And where he was was in a vacuum of true superstardom where someone (like a Lenny Bias would have) could challenge him.

Russ had Wilt, Legend had Magic.

Jordan had the media and an NBA that exploded because of the giants immediately before him and contemporaneously with him early in his career . There were no Lakers, Celtics, '6ers or Bad boy Pistons in their prime. He had NO competition like those teams to go through to win his championships.

Right place, right time alone does not a legend make.

I rate Russ, Bird and Magic ahead of Jordan.

[CelticsFanNC]

Again, I'd bring up that the debate about the strength of Jordan's teams compared to Russell's (and Bird's and Magic's, etc.) means pretty much nothing to the larger debate here.  

Jordan played with poor teammates (outside of Pippen), but so did all of his opponents.  I mean look at that horrendous team that Hakeem piloted to the title in '94.  

I think the central question is how Jordan would've done had he had to play Bird and McHale or Johnson and Jabbar instead of Stockton and Malone, Kemp and Payton, or Barkley and KJ with the same mediocre cast of characters around them.  

Jordan was a special player--perhaps the greatest ever--but when the going got tough, he could take over a game in a way that only 10 or so other players have ever been able to.  The problem is, none of those other 10 players were in their prime when Jordan was.  

Sure, he could've hit big shot after big shot playing against Bird or Magic, but if Magic or Bird was there to also hit big shot, after big shot (rather than Karl Malone coughing the ball up in the last 10 seconds of the game), Jordan heroics wouldn't have always been enough.  

Another way to look at it would be to ask yourself how many titles Bird or Magic would've had if the other one didn't exist?  Or how many titles would Duncan have if Shaq was born 10 years earlier?  Or how many titles would Wilt have won if Russell was never born?  With his stats, he would easily be considered above Jordan.  

Jordan may be the greatest ever, but he got extremely lucky to play in an era where no other top 10 player of all time was in his prime.  Consequently, he had a much easier path to his titles than any other top 10 player in NBA history.  

  I do agree with you about Jordan not really having a foil so to speak during his dominant decade that he knew he was going to have to go through as every other Elite player has had.

  I disagree that the strength of his competition is irrelevant though.  It is relevant to this discussion because the main reason Jordan has been gifted his status as the greatest of all-time is due to those 6 titles in a decade.

 6 titles he would have never gotten in any other decade except maybe the 70's which was another odd decade with the NBA competing with the ABA for top talent, an extremely selfish style of play and rampant drug use by NBA players.

  As someone else said, Jordan was in the right place at the right time.  He was a tremendous player dominating in a decade without another legitimate elite superstar as every other player of his caliber had to compete against.  He was there when the ESPN/NBA marketing machine took off collecting the spoils that Larry Bird and Magic Johnson had earned by reinvigorating a dying fan base a decade earlier.  

    Like I said previously, I never saw Bill Russell, my dad did(a Knicks fan all his life) and he calls Russell the greatest basketball player who ever lived.  I did see Jordan, Bird and Magic.  Larry Bird at his peak was every bit as great as Jordan, maybe even better because he did more things to beat you then Jordan did and he made the players around him better at a level Jordan never approached.  Bird's all out all the time style of play ended his career prematurely but I don't know that he should be penalized for that.