Minnesota & David Kahn

[Roy H.]

But when Danny Ainge had a situation much like Kahn's team, Minnesota, has this year, an extremely young team with questionable talent and few roster spots, Danny Ainge didn't select more young players and stockpile future picks. He cashed them in along with his questionable young talent and landed Ray Allen, Glen Davis, and Kevin Garnett.

And given the similarities between the 2006 and 2007 Celtics and the 2010 and 2011 Timberwolves(#2 pick/#5 pick high draft picks, Love/Jefferson young big man, Rubio/Rondo young PG asset, slew of other mediocre talent, horrible records) I believe Kahn failed his team because he could have followed what looked to be a winning formula and made bigger trades. I think all he has done is cause his team to once again have one of the 5 worst records in the league for fifth year in a row.

Come on, nick.  What veterans were the Twolves going to land that would have immediately launched them into contention?  Danny's assets (which he developed, to his credit) included an existing perennial all-star, a lottery pick, and a young big man with all-star potential.  Danny also had those assets when multiple perennial all-stars were on the market.

The Twolves have the lottery pick and the young big man, but they don't have the established star.  There's no equivalent to Paul Pierce on their roster.  Similarly, there's no equivalent to KG and Ray Allen on the market.

That being the case, Kahn has to follow Danny's strategy:  acquire "chips", while developing some young talent, before cashing that talent in for a championship.  It's only because Danny was successful in stage 1 of his plan that he was able to transition to stage 2.

Also, regarding Brad Miller, he just had microfracture surgery; insurance is going to pay for most, if not all, of his salary, which is another huge chunk of savings.

[nickagneta]

But when Danny Ainge had a situation much like Kahn's team, Minnesota, has this year, an extremely young team with questionable talent and few roster spots, Danny Ainge didn't select more young players and stockpile future picks. He cashed them in along with his questionable young talent and landed Ray Allen, Glen Davis, and Kevin Garnett.

And given the similarities between the 2006 and 2007 Celtics and the 2010 and 2011 Timberwolves(#2 pick/#5 pick high draft picks, Love/Jefferson young big man, Rubio/Rondo young PG asset, slew of other mediocre talent, horrible records) I believe Kahn failed his team because he could have followed what looked to be a winning formula and made bigger trades. I think all he has done is cause his team to once again have one of the 5 worst records in the league for fifth year in a row.

Come on, nick.  What veterans were the Twolves going to land that would have immediately launched them into contention?  Danny's assets (which he developed, to his credit) included an existing perennial all-star, a lottery pick, and a young big man with all-star potential.  Danny also had those assets when multiple perennial all-stars were on the market.

The Twolves have the lottery pick and the young big man, but they don't have the established star.  There's no equivalent to Paul Pierce on their roster.  Similarly, there's no equivalent to KG and Ray Allen on the market.

That being the case, Kahn has to follow Danny's strategy:  acquire "chips", while developing some young talent, before cashing that talent in for a championship.  It's only because Danny was successful in stage 1 of his plan that he was able to transition to stage 2.

Also, regarding Brad Miller, he just had microfracture surgery; insurance is going to pay for most, if not all, of his salary, which is another huge chunk of savings.

Who said anything about contending? I just think they need to get better and he's getting his team worse. For the third year in a row.

Also regarding my comparison:

2007 Celtics
Record 24-58 second worst record                   
Rondo - Young PG               
Jefferson- PF with AS potential
#5 pick                         
Perk - young defensive center on 5 year $20 million deal
Green, West, Telfair, Wally, Gomes - trade fodder filler
Rest of leftover roster: Pierce, Tony Allen, Powe, Scalabrine

2011 TWolves
Record 17-65 -worst record
Rubio - Young PG
Love - PF with AS potential
#2 and #20 picks
Darko - young defensive center on 4 year $20 million deal
Flynn, Webster, Ellington, Ridnour, Tolliver - trade fodder filler
Rest of leftover roster: Beasley, Johnson, Pekovic, Randolph

Very comparable except for Pierce/Beasley. I guess we will simply agree to disagree. Perhaps Who and you are right and they need to wait another year to cash in as next year they will have Beasley, Love and Randolph needing to be paid. That could seriously complicate the matter or make things better, depending on how much you trust Kahn's ability to get things done.

My guess is Kahn will be fired before Minnesota sees a significant jump up the standings.

[mgent]

But hey, there *is* something to bash Kahn for, after all:

When the Wolves selected [Tanguy Ngombo] Thursday night, they thought they were getting a 21-year-old golden nugget hidden from all other times. Instead, they found pyrite, because Ngombo is really 26 years old.

There's no reason that general manager David Kahn couldn't have done a rudimentary web search about Ngombo, and he deserves mockery for failing to carry out some basic research.

Link

Of course, we're talking about the 58th pick in the draft, but still, it's a miss.  Ngombo shouldn't have even been draft eligible.

Is that how it is with foreigners?  I thought you could draft 26 year olds (Lester Hudson I think).  The league doesn't check possible draftees anyway or is this just a nobody?

[Who]

But hey, there *is* something to bash Kahn for, after all:

When the Wolves selected [Tanguy Ngombo] Thursday night, they thought they were getting a 21-year-old golden nugget hidden from all other times. Instead, they found pyrite, because Ngombo is really 26 years old.

There's no reason that general manager David Kahn couldn't have done a rudimentary web search about Ngombo, and he deserves mockery for failing to carry out some basic research.

Link

Of course, we're talking about the 58th pick in the draft, but still, it's a miss.  Ngombo shouldn't have even been draft eligible.

Is that how it is with foreigners?  I thought you could draft 26 year olds (Lester Hudson I think).  The league doesn't check possible draftees anyway or is this just a nobody?

Not 100% sure ... but I think you are only eligible for the draft until you are 23 and then you become a free agent.

Edit: Trying to check on that ... just read something that indicated that this might only apply to international players.

http://web.archive.org/web/20080227065646/http://www.nbpa.com/cba_articles/article-X.php

[mgent]

But hey, there *is* something to bash Kahn for, after all:

When the Wolves selected [Tanguy Ngombo] Thursday night, they thought they were getting a 21-year-old golden nugget hidden from all other times. Instead, they found pyrite, because Ngombo is really 26 years old.

There's no reason that general manager David Kahn couldn't have done a rudimentary web search about Ngombo, and he deserves mockery for failing to carry out some basic research.

Link

Of course, we're talking about the 58th pick in the draft, but still, it's a miss.  Ngombo shouldn't have even been draft eligible.

Is that how it is with foreigners?  I thought you could draft 26 year olds (Lester Hudson I think).  The league doesn't check possible draftees anyway or is this just a nobody?

Not 100% sure ... but I think you are only eligible for the draft until you are 23 and then you become a free agent.

New rule maybe?  I learned today, because of you, that Dennis Rodman was 26ish when drafted in that other thread.  Could've sworn Hudson was too, maybe because he started school late though?  I bet that's it.

[Who]

But hey, there *is* something to bash Kahn for, after all:

When the Wolves selected [Tanguy Ngombo] Thursday night, they thought they were getting a 21-year-old golden nugget hidden from all other times. Instead, they found pyrite, because Ngombo is really 26 years old.

There's no reason that general manager David Kahn couldn't have done a rudimentary web search about Ngombo, and he deserves mockery for failing to carry out some basic research.

Link

Of course, we're talking about the 58th pick in the draft, but still, it's a miss.  Ngombo shouldn't have even been draft eligible.

Is that how it is with foreigners?  I thought you could draft 26 year olds (Lester Hudson I think).  The league doesn't check possible draftees anyway or is this just a nobody?

Not 100% sure ... but I think you are only eligible for the draft until you are 23 and then you become a free agent.

New rule maybe?  I learned today, because of you, that Dennis Rodman was 26ish when drafted in that other thread.  Could've sworn Hudson was too, maybe because he started school late though?  I bet that's it.

Yeah, I just edited my last post to include a link in it. The rule was part of the Collective Bargaining Agreement.

Appearently, the rule is mainly for international players. US players can remain eligible past that age so long as they still have collegiate eligibility (explains Lester Hudson).

At least, that was my understanding of it. Find those legal type documents difficult to read.

-----------------------------------

The only reason I know anything about this was because I remember this was a story when Jerry West signed Cezary Trybanski back when he was in Memphis. His eligibility expired so he was able to sign him as a free agent.

[PosImpos]

Always fun to try to piece this together and judge, because there’s always a certain element of randomness and crapshooting to any trades/drafts, so you really have to look at the big picture. Kahn took over on 5/22/2009 with the draft in June. So, going into his 3rd seasaon, Are the T-Wolves better off now than they were?

Roster before Kahn took over:
Record: 24-58
Mike Miller 1 yr 9.75
Al Jefferson 4 yr 12, 13, 14, 15
Corey  Brewer 2 yr 2.8, 2.7 + QO
Randy Foye 1 yr 3.6 + QO yr
Brian Cardinal 1 yr 6.75
Jason Collins 6.2 expired
Mark Madsen 1 yr 2.84
Kevin Ollie 1.26 expired
Ryan Gomes 1 yr 4.0
Rodney Carney 1.65 expired
Sebastian Telfair 2 yr 2.5, 2.7
Kevin Love 3 yr 3.4, 3.6, 4.6 + QO
Craig Smith 2 yr 2.5, 2.3
Bobby Brown 1 yr .74
Etan Thomas 1 yr 7.9
Shelden Williams  3.4, expired
#6, #18, #28, #45, #47 in 2009 draft
Future protected top 22 in 2009, top 17 in 2010, top 15 in 2011, top 16 in 2012, top 16 in 2013 (#23 in 2010)
As far as I could tell, no other major debts/credits in terms of future firsts owing or owed.

Now:
Beasley, 1 yr 6.3 + QO
Webster, 2 yr 5.3, 5.7 (partial)
Brad Miller, 2 yr 4.8, 5.1 (Partial)
Milicic, 3 yr 4.8, 5.2, 5.7 (partial)
Pekovic 2 yr 4.6, 4.9
Ridnour 3 yr 4.0, 4.0, 4.0
Wes Johnson 3 yr 4.0, 4.3, 5.4 + QO
Kevin Love 1 yr 4.6 + QO
Telfair 2.7, Expired (Bird)
Tolliver 1 yr 2.4
Randolph 1 yr 2.9 + QO
Ellington 2 yr 1.2, 2.1 + QO
Lazar Hayward 3 yr 1.1, 1.2, 2.1 + QO
Ricky Rubio
Derrick Williams
Malcolm Lee
Targuy Ngomo
2012 Utah 1st (top 14 ’12, top 12 ’13, top 9 ’14 triggers swap-option or 2nd rounder)
2013 Memphis 1st (top 14 ’13-’16 or 2012 2nd and cash
2013 NJ 2nd
2014 NO 2nd
2015 Denver 2nd
Owe:
2012 1st
2012 2nd
2013 2nd
2014 2nd



I think i like it better now. There's a lot of directions they could go in to continue to add impactful players. It's poorly constructed as a team right now going into year 3, but there's still this offseason, and no bad contracts, and a lot of flexibility.

Also something to note is that Kahn effectively "bottomed-out" the T-Wolves.  Whether or not this was on purpose is a fair question.  However, bottoming out is a necessary part of rebuilding for any non-contending team, so that is to some extent a credit to Kahn -- assuming the picks he's gotten as a result of that bottoming out turn into valuable commodities (hard to say yet).

[nickagneta]

Always fun to try to piece this together and judge, because there’s always a certain element of randomness and crapshooting to any trades/drafts, so you really have to look at the big picture. Kahn took over on 5/22/2009 with the draft in June. So, going into his 3rd seasaon, Are the T-Wolves better off now than they were?

Roster before Kahn took over:
Record: 24-58
Mike Miller 1 yr 9.75
Al Jefferson 4 yr 12, 13, 14, 15
Corey  Brewer 2 yr 2.8, 2.7 + QO
Randy Foye 1 yr 3.6 + QO yr
Brian Cardinal 1 yr 6.75
Jason Collins 6.2 expired
Mark Madsen 1 yr 2.84
Kevin Ollie 1.26 expired
Ryan Gomes 1 yr 4.0
Rodney Carney 1.65 expired
Sebastian Telfair 2 yr 2.5, 2.7
Kevin Love 3 yr 3.4, 3.6, 4.6 + QO
Craig Smith 2 yr 2.5, 2.3
Bobby Brown 1 yr .74
Etan Thomas 1 yr 7.9
Shelden Williams  3.4, expired
#6, #18, #28, #45, #47 in 2009 draft
Future protected top 22 in 2009, top 17 in 2010, top 15 in 2011, top 16 in 2012, top 16 in 2013 (#23 in 2010)
As far as I could tell, no other major debts/credits in terms of future firsts owing or owed.

Now:
Beasley, 1 yr 6.3 + QO
Webster, 2 yr 5.3, 5.7 (partial)
Brad Miller, 2 yr 4.8, 5.1 (Partial)
Milicic, 3 yr 4.8, 5.2, 5.7 (partial)
Pekovic 2 yr 4.6, 4.9
Ridnour 3 yr 4.0, 4.0, 4.0
Wes Johnson 3 yr 4.0, 4.3, 5.4 + QO
Kevin Love 1 yr 4.6 + QO
Telfair 2.7, Expired (Bird)
Tolliver 1 yr 2.4
Randolph 1 yr 2.9 + QO
Ellington 2 yr 1.2, 2.1 + QO
Lazar Hayward 3 yr 1.1, 1.2, 2.1 + QO
Ricky Rubio
Derrick Williams
Malcolm Lee
Targuy Ngomo
2012 Utah 1st (top 14 ’12, top 12 ’13, top 9 ’14 triggers swap-option or 2nd rounder)
2013 Memphis 1st (top 14 ’13-’16 or 2012 2nd and cash
2013 NJ 2nd
2014 NO 2nd
2015 Denver 2nd
Owe:
2012 1st
2012 2nd
2013 2nd
2014 2nd



I think i like it better now. There's a lot of directions they could go in to continue to add impactful players. It's poorly constructed as a team right now going into year 3, but there's still this offseason, and no bad contracts, and a lot of flexibility.

Also something to note is that Kahn effectively "bottomed-out" the T-Wolves.  Whether or not this was on purpose is a fair question.  However, bottoming out is a necessary part of rebuilding for any non-contending team, so that is to some extent a credit to Kahn -- assuming the picks he's gotten as a result of that bottoming out turn into valuable commodities (hard to say yet).

I would argue they were bottomed out when he got there having traded KG in the summer of 2007 and winning just 22 and 24 games the next two years. I believe McHale had already bottomed that team out.

All David Kahn did was make them historically bottomed out. Except for the Grizzlies and Mavericks no franchise has ever had a worse two year record(not 100% sure of that but pretty sure) and the Mavs and Griz did it early in their first two years of existence. Heck in the Heat's first two years as an expansion team they won one more game than Kahn's Timberpuppies.

[RebusRankin]

Kahn also compared Darko's career prior to last season's to Webber's prior to Webber going to Sacramento. The man is umm foolish to say the least. Simmons needs another bad GM summit with Thomas in a special guest apperance.

[lon3lytoaster]

Kahn also compared Darko's career prior to last season's to Webber's prior to Webber going to Sacramento. The man is umm foolish to say the least. Simmons needs another bad GM summit with Thomas in a special guest apperance.

He did that right in front of C-Webb, too if I'm not mistaken. Looked like C-Webb wanted to smack the taste out of his mouth for that one.

[RebusRankin]

Kahn also compared Darko's career prior to last season's to Webber's prior to Webber going to Sacramento. The man is umm foolish to say the least. Simmons needs another bad GM summit with Thomas in a special guest apperance.

He did that right in front of C-Webb, too if I'm not mistaken. Looked like C-Webb wanted to smack the taste out of his mouth for that one.

You are correct sir. Kahn is just clueless. They slowly seem to be getting better but say in 09 you draft Lawson and Curry. Add in Love. Assume you get a Williams. Lawson, Curry, Williams, Love is a decent young core.

[soap07]

So looking at the whole picture, looking at the big picture of what Kahn should be doing for the Wolves and what he did do for the Wolves on draft night, I think he failed miserably. From all accounts players like Josh Smith, Andre Iguodala, Tony Parker, Joe Johnson, and perhaps other could have been had. Love, Rubio, Williams, Beasley and picks could have been turned into something Minnesota fans could have been excited over. Instead they get another year of 20 wins, another year of trying to win the lottery, another year of seeing if a Durant or Lebron is somewhere to be found in next draft and another year of waiting.

Why would you want to give up any of those assets for any of those players you mentioned?

[Moranis]

Kahn also compared Darko's career prior to last season's to Webber's prior to Webber going to Sacramento. The man is umm foolish to say the least. Simmons needs another bad GM summit with Thomas in a special guest apperance.

He did that right in front of C-Webb, too if I'm not mistaken. Looked like C-Webb wanted to smack the taste out of his mouth for that one.

he didn't actually compare their games or their careers.

[CaptainJackLee]

But hey, there *is* something to bash Kahn for, after all:

When the Wolves selected [Tanguy Ngombo] Thursday night, they thought they were getting a 21-year-old golden nugget hidden from all other times. Instead, they found pyrite, because Ngombo is really 26 years old.

There's no reason that general manager David Kahn couldn't have done a rudimentary web search about Ngombo, and he deserves mockery for failing to carry out some basic research.

Link

Of course, we're talking about the 58th pick in the draft, but still, it's a miss.  Ngombo shouldn't have even been draft eligible.

Is that how it is with foreigners?  I thought you could draft 26 year olds (Lester Hudson I think).  The league doesn't check possible draftees anyway or is this just a nobody?

Not 100% sure ... but I think you are only eligible for the draft until you are 23 and then you become a free agent.

New rule maybe?  I learned today, because of you, that Dennis Rodman was 26ish when drafted in that other thread.  Could've sworn Hudson was too, maybe because he started school late though?  I bet that's it.

Yeah, I just edited my last post to include a link in it. The rule was part of the Collective Bargaining Agreement.

Appearently, the rule is mainly for international players. US players can remain eligible past that age so long as they still have collegiate eligibility (explains Lester Hudson).

At least, that was my understanding of it. Find those legal type documents difficult to read.

-----------------------------------

The only reason I know anything about this was because I remember this was a story when Jerry West signed Cezary Trybanski back when he was in Memphis. His eligibility expired so he was able to sign him as a free agent.

Every player, college or international, is only eligible for 2 drafts. After not being drafted twice, he's a free-agent.

International players become automatically eligible in the year they are 22 years old (college players in the year they lose college eligibility). So this Ngombo guy was eligible 4 years ago - went undrafted; 3 years ago - went undrafted again. After that he became a free-agent.

But an  international player can become a free-agent at, say, 20 years old: he just needs to declare for early entry when he's 18 and 19 - if he isn't drafted, he becomes a free-agent.

[lon3lytoaster]

Kahn also compared Darko's career prior to last season's to Webber's prior to Webber going to Sacramento. The man is umm foolish to say the least. Simmons needs another bad GM summit with Thomas in a special guest apperance.

He did that right in front of C-Webb, too if I'm not mistaken. Looked like C-Webb wanted to smack the taste out of his mouth for that one.

he didn't actually compare their games or their careers.

Oh, just a little.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iGZebWRJWg4