KG's career = overrated not a franchise player not a true #1 deal with it?

[OsirusCeltics]

You can't use that argument for a big man. It is rare to see a big man who was dominant in his position as well as being the closer for the team, who takes the last shots in the final minutes

The big man is at the mercy of the guards they play with. They can' bring the ball up the court with consistency. If the guards don't feed them the ball, they can't be dominant on the floor. Unless you have guard-skills like Dirk or Olajuwon, its hard to not be so dependent on teammates. Wilt wouldn't have scored 100 points if it wasn't for his teammates feeding him the ball in the post. Maybe offensive rebounds was his only way to score on his own

With that said, if you are the top scorer on your team, and the main reason why they win, you are the #1 option. KG was that in Minny

[OsirusCeltics]

Same can be said for Tim Duncan
If the criticism is on KG, Duncan should get the same

Why? 


4 titles.  3 final's MVPs.   

KG isn't the closer for the Celtics, and neither is Duncan for the Spurs

In his early career, it was Sean Elliot, Mario Ellie, Avery Johnson who was closing games. Then it was Parker and Ginobli

[wdleehi]

Same can be said for Tim Duncan
If the criticism is on KG, Duncan should get the same

Why? 


4 titles.  3 final's MVPs.   

KG isn't the closer for the Celtics, and neither is Duncan for the Spurs

In his early career, it was Sean Elliot, Mario Ellie, Avery Johnson who was closing games. Then it was Parker and Ginobli

3 time final's MVP. 

[OsirusCeltics]

Same can be said for Tim Duncan
If the criticism is on KG, Duncan should get the same

Why? 


4 titles.  3 final's MVPs.   

KG isn't the closer for the Celtics, and neither is Duncan for the Spurs

In his early career, it was Sean Elliot, Mario Ellie, Avery Johnson who was closing games. Then it was Parker and Ginobli

3 time final's MVP. 

And his teammates got him to the Finals for him to be able to get that MVP right?

[wdleehi]

Same can be said for Tim Duncan
If the criticism is on KG, Duncan should get the same

Why? 


4 titles.  3 final's MVPs.   

KG isn't the closer for the Celtics, and neither is Duncan for the Spurs

In his early career, it was Sean Elliot, Mario Ellie, Avery Johnson who was closing games. Then it was Parker and Ginobli

3 time final's MVP. 

And his teammates got him to the Finals for him to be able to get that MVP right?

Right. 

4× NBA Champion (1999, 2003, 2005, 2007)
3× NBA Finals MVP (1999, 2003, 2005)
2× NBA Most Valuable Player (2002–2003)
NBA Rookie of the Year (1998)
13× NBA All-Star (1998, 2000–2011)
9× All-NBA First Team (1998–2005, 2007)
3× All-NBA Second Team (2006, 2008–2009)
All-NBA Third Team (2010)
8× All-Defensive First Team (1999–2003, 2005, 2007–2008)
5× All-Defensive Second Team (1998, 2004, 2006, 2009–2010)
NBA All-Rookie First Team (1998)
NBA All-Star Game MVP (2000)

He was carried through out his career.

[OsirusCeltics]

Right.  

4× NBA Champion (1999, 2003, 2005, 2007)
3× NBA Finals MVP (1999, 2003, 2005)
2× NBA Most Valuable Player (2002–2003)
NBA Rookie of the Year (1998)
13× NBA All-Star (1998, 2000–2011)
9× All-NBA First Team (1998–2005, 2007)
3× All-NBA Second Team (2006, 2008–2009)
All-NBA Third Team (2010)
8× All-Defensive First Team (1999–2003, 2005, 2007–2008)
5× All-Defensive Second Team (1998, 2004, 2006, 2009–2010)
NBA All-Rookie First Team (1998)
NBA All-Star Game MVP (2000)

He was carried through out his career.
[/quote]

That is a pure example of team accomplishments being a result of individual awards. Without great players on your team winning, you don't get the attention

Mitch Richmond was a great great player off and deff, but never got the attention cause he was the only great player on his below .500 teams he played on

Moses Malone won the MVP award in 1982. Out of 60+ years, he was the only player in history to have a team that was 6th place (46-36) in his conference

Having great players on your team to help you with wins means alot

[GreenFaith1819]

Interesting turn for the thread with Tim Duncan.

I love Tim and I ranked him in a previous thread as the best PF of all time, with KG not too far behind him.

But I wonder how successful he would've been without David - especially earlier in his career?

Or - how successful would KG had been with David in Minny?

[wdleehi]

Interesting turn for the thread with Tim Duncan.

I love Tim and I ranked him in a previous thread as the best PF of all time, with KG not too far behind him.

But I wonder how successful he would've been without David - especially earlier in his career?

Or - how successful would KG had been with David in Minny?

The parts changed around him, they kept winning titles. 

[Roy H.]

Interesting turn for the thread with Tim Duncan.

I love Tim and I ranked him in a previous thread as the best PF of all time, with KG not too far behind him.

But I wonder how successful he would've been without David - especially earlier in his career?

Or - how successful would KG had been with David in Minny?

The parts changed around him, they kept winning titles. 

Yeah, Duncan's teams have never won fewer than 50 games (except in the lockout season), and he's never missed the playoffs (and has only lost in the first round three times).  No matter the teammates, Tim Duncan's teams have been very successful, which is in large part due to his individual greatness.

[greenpride32]

  http://www.82games.com/0708/playoffs/0708BOS.HTM

  Best PER by far, best PER differential and on/off differential by far, led the team in scoring and rebounding, was obviously our best defender, and I can recall someone posting here that he was our leading 4th quarter scorer in the playoffs. I'd say that qualifies him to be the best player.

BBallTim - Don' take this as a personal attack or anything; it's just an open discussion.

In another thread you basically discounted CP3's much superior PER ratings when comparing him to Rondo.  But now you're using PER to support KG as being the best player? 

[OsirusCeltics]

Interesting turn for the thread with Tim Duncan.

I love Tim and I ranked him in a previous thread as the best PF of all time, with KG not too far behind him.

But I wonder how successful he would've been without David - especially earlier in his career?

Or - how successful would KG had been with David in Minny?

The parts changed around him, they kept winning titles. 

Yeah, Duncan's teams have never won fewer than 50 games (except in the lockout season), and he's never missed the playoffs (and has only lost in the first round three times).  No matter the teammates, Tim Duncan's teams have been very successful, which is in large part due to his individual greatness.

The Spurs were the 3rd overall best team (59-23) in the '95-'96 season, a year before Duncan was drafted there

[greenpride32]

All this thread proves is TEAMS win championships, not individual players.  Look at all the powerhouse teams in the west that KG had to deal with in his prime, and compare them to his teams in Minny.  If KG had better support I'm sure he could have won a title being the main man on his team, but that wasn't meant to be.

In '08, KG, Ray, and Paul all played exceptionally well in the playoffs.  I don't see any clear cut #1 out of three; bottom line was they needed each other to win that title.

[jdub1660]

He almost won championship with scrubs like Sprewell,Cassell, and Olawakandi. KG was a franchise player, still great, but aging like the rest of his era

Had that Twolves team not been injury plagued in the post season, they could've won it all. Add in the LA Super Friends team of Payton,Kobe,Malone and Shaq. Pistons won it all, but healthy Twolves team would've won with KG leading the way

[wdleehi]

Interesting turn for the thread with Tim Duncan.

I love Tim and I ranked him in a previous thread as the best PF of all time, with KG not too far behind him.

But I wonder how successful he would've been without David - especially earlier in his career?

Or - how successful would KG had been with David in Minny?

The parts changed around him, they kept winning titles. 

Yeah, Duncan's teams have never won fewer than 50 games (except in the lockout season), and he's never missed the playoffs (and has only lost in the first round three times).  No matter the teammates, Tim Duncan's teams have been very successful, which is in large part due to his individual greatness.

The Spurs were the 3rd overall best team (59-23) in the '95-'96 season, a year before Duncan was drafted there

And he put them over the top.


And when that team completely changed around him (without the benefit of top draft picks)

They kept winning.  


It is Duncan's decline with age that prevents them from winning it all now.  Parker and Manu are as strong as ever.

[wdleehi]

He almost won championship with scrubs like Sprewell,Cassell, and Olawakandi. KG was a franchise player, still great, but aging like the rest of his era

Had that Twolves team not been injury plagued in the post season, they could've won it all. Add in the LA Super Friends team of Payton,Kobe,Malone and Shaq. Pistons won it all, but healthy Twolves team would've won with KG leading the way

Spree and Cassell were not scrubs.


Spree was likely the best player that got the Knicks to the title series.