50 Greatest NBA Players of All Time

[PosImpos]

Now that the playoffs are finished, I've at last completed my statistically determined list of the 50 greatest NBA players of all time.


Link:
http://rateyourmusic.com/list/PosImpos/50_greatest_nba_players/


CHANGES MADE: MVP, FINALS MVP WORTH MORE, DPOY WORTH LESS. BILL RUSSELL NO LONGER RETROACTIVELY GIVEN DPOY AWARDS.



Points determined as follows:


50 points for MVP
25 points for DPOY*
25 points for Finals MVP
10 points for ROY
10 points for Sixth Man
5 points for Championship (each one)
5 points for each All-NBA 1st team appearance

Also:
40 points for 1st rank in primary stat (2 points for 20th)
20 points for 1st rank in secondary stat (1 point for 20th)


Primary stats:
(career regular season points, rebounds, blocks, steals, assists, win shares, offensive win shares, defensive win shares, MVP award shares)

Secondary stats:
(career regular season PER, TS%, 3 pt makes, PPG, APG, RPG, SPG, BPG, career playoff points, rebounds, blocks, steals, assists, win shares, offensive win shares, defensive win shares)


*It should be kept in mind that the Defensive Player of the Year award was not given out until 1982, meaning that defensively oriented players from years prior to that (particularly Bill Russell, who was a monster on defense), miss out on a large number of points.  


*All stats courtesy of basketball-reference.com*

[Marcus13]

says its been deleted bruh

[PosImpos]

says its been deleted bruh

hahahah.  

problem would be that it was still set to private.  thank you very much for alerting me to that!

should be possible to view now.

[GreenFaith1819]

Love your list, Pos.

[indeedproceed]

Maybe the DPOY stat might be a little overrated. Its unfairly slanted towards big men (only what, 5 different players who weren't PF/C's in the last 28 years?), plus guys like Kareem, Wilt, or others who never had a real shot in their prime of winning it get set back a tick, while Russell is the only guy elevated.

List doesn't seem too egregious though with the placement..but when guys like Deke Mutumbo and Ben Wallace are ahead of more deserving guys, and Mark Eaton beats out Kevin McHale, you know maybe it bears a second look.

[PosImpos]

Maybe the DPOY stat might be a little overrated. Its unfairly slanted towards big men (only what, 5 different players who weren't PF/C's in the last 28 years?), plus guys like Kareem, Wilt, or others who never had a real shot in their prime of winning it get set back a tick, while Russell is the only guy elevated.

List doesn't seem too egregious though with the placement..but when guys like Deke Mutumbo and Ben Wallace are ahead of more deserving guys, and Mark Eaton beats out Kevin McHale, you know maybe it bears a second look.

I considered this, but I'm not sure what a more objective way of creating the list would be.  Should I value points more highly than rebounds?  Assists higher than blocks, steals?

DPOY is rated only 10 points less than MVP in my list, and that might seem like too small a difference; however, since MVP is more often than not a "offensive player of the year" award, it seems rather fair.

Big men do seem greatly favored by the list, but what can I say?  Big men have dominated basketball throughout the history of the sport.  The best big men have been able to contribute greatly in many different parts of the box score.  Again, I could weight points (and perhaps assists) more than the other stats, but that would seem to unfairly favor purely offensive players, who are already too often given too much credit.


Anyway, I don't claim that my list is perfect, but I put a fair amount of thought into my rating system and I'm not sure how to improve it.  

The DPOY issue is surely a considerable one, and only giving Russell retroactive awards does skew the list a bit.  But even without the boost Russell would still be in the top 6.  I think he deserves to be there at #3.


As for the number of non-big men on the list:

Dennis Johnson*
Clyde Drexler*
Alvin Robertson*
Julius Erving
Maurice Cheeks
Reggie Miller*
Elgin Baylor
Gary Payton*
Allen Iverson*
Isiah Thomas*
John Havlicek
Bob Cousy
LeBron James*
Scottie Pippen*
Jerry West
Steve Nash*
Jason Kidd*
John Stockton*
Oscar Robertson
Kobe Bryant*
Larry Bird*
Magic Johnson*
Michael Jordan*

*last 28 years

That's 23 guys out of 50, and the majority of them are from the last 28 years.  There are actually a lot of point guards high on the list. 

If any position is underrepresented, it's small forwards -- which is perhaps because historically small forwards have often been all-around players who don't extremely excel in a particular category (standouts like Larry Bird excluded, of course).

[rondohondo]

Ben Wallace #21??

Dikembe Mutombo 17?


that's just crazy to me

[letsgoblue86]

 dwight howard? And no Paul Pierce?

[PosImpos]

Ben Wallace #21??

Dikembe Mutombo 17?


that's just crazy to me

Each of them were considered the best defensive player in the league 4 times.  Ben Wallace was the defensive focal point of a team that won a championship with defense.  Both are among the leaders in categories like blocks, steals, and defensive win shares (regular season and playoffs).  They both grabbed a lot of rebounds, too.

Deke and Ben Wallace are underrated players because they were never dominant on offense -- but like Dennis Rodman, they were both very, very good at what they were good at, which is defense.  They are all time greats, no doubt.

Dwight Howard ends up high on this list for the same reason, though he's not nearly as high because obviously he hasn't assembled the same kind of career resume yet.


Our beloved Paul Pierce is not in the Top 50 because while he has done a whole lot of scoring over the course of his career, he is not among the top 20 in really any statistical categories, nor has he ever won the MVP award.  I believe he had a little bit over 30 points, which meant he was well out of the running.


One thing to remember is that I didn't even take into consideration All Defensive 1st team selections, which would have helped out the defensive stars on the list even more.

[nickagneta]

MVP is not an "Offensive Player of the Year" award and giving the DPOY award that many points is seriously flawed.

Thinking back, in the 70's there were MVP's like Walton and Unseld and Reed and Cowens that were MVPs because of there rebounding and defense and leadership more so than their offense. Russell won how many MVP's? He was never a great offensive player of the year. Garnett and Duncan won MVPs in their best defensive seasons. Jordan was one of the best defensive players in the league as well as a great offensive force.

Just way too many points for that award that makes players like Ben Wallace, Dennis Rodman and the like too high on the list. I would increase your points for the Finals and NBA MVP and decrease your points for DPOY and see what you come up with. I think you would see better results.

TP for the look though and all the work. The above is just constructive criticism. I admire the work and thought process.

[PosImpos]

MVP is not an "Offensive Player of the Year" award and giving the DPOY award that many points is seriously flawed.

Thinking back, in the 70's there were MVP's like Walton and Unseld and Reed and Cowens that were MVPs because of there rebounding and defense and leadership more so than their offense. Russell won how many MVP's? He was never a great offensive player of the year. Garnett and Duncan won MVPs in their best defensive seasons. Jordan was one of the best defensive players in the league as well as a great offensive force.

Just way too many points for that award that makes players like Ben Wallace, Dennis Rodman and the like too high on the list. I would increase your points for the Finals and NBA MVP and decrease your points for DPOY and see what you come up with. I think you would see better results.

TP for the look though and all the work. The above is just constructive criticism. I admire the work and thought process.

The award may have worked more fairly in the past, but in an age where Derrick Rose wins MVP, I have a difficult time not thinking of MVP as "offensive player of the year."

Still, there may be something to the idea of decreasing the points for DPOY and increasing it for MVP.  I might consider changing it to 50 points for MVP and 25 for DPOY / Finals MVP and see what I get.  Dikembe and Ben Wallace would still be a lot higher on the list than many would expect, but I honestly don't think that's unreasonable.

[indeedproceed]

With the awards being so arbitrary, I think decreasing both substantially might not be a terrible idea, and weight other things like the primary stats stronger, maybe even also incorporating stuff like "top 2 scorer on a championship team" and the like.

I never liked people parading MVP's and DPOY's as primary criteria for all-time lists. Sometimes they get it right (LeBron, Duncan, Garnett, one of Nash's) and sometimes they get it wrong (one of Nash's, Rose, Nowitzki, Malone).

Look at the 50's, 60's and 70's even. Bob Pettitt? Bob McAdoo? Russell as the best player on the far majority of 11 of his championship teams, but only 5 MVP's? Garnett with only 1 DPOY?

Some were homeruns, some weren't.

[Eja117]

Waaaiitttt a second.   6th man is worth twice as much as All Nba 1rst team?  That kind of favors not as good players over the best, right?

I mean how many times did MJ win 6th man?

Also the list obviously favors longevity, which is probably a good thing.


Lebron ahead of Dirk and KG? Nope.

Give me rings.  It's the only stat that matters.  Yes. Robery Horry is better than Lebron.

[indeedproceed]

Yes. Robery Horry is better than Lebron.

haha

ITS THE ONLY ARGUMENT I NEED, SHAWN!!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_wnAUWpoJA

[Atzar]

With the awards being so arbitrary, I think decreasing both substantially might not be a terrible idea, and weight other things like the primary stats stronger, maybe even also incorporating stuff like "top 2 scorer on a championship team" and the like.

I never liked people parading MVP's and DPOY's as primary criteria for all-time lists. Sometimes they get it right (LeBron, Duncan, Garnett, one of Nash's) and sometimes they get it wrong (one of Nash's, Rose, Nowitzki, Malone).

Look at the 50's, 60's and 70's even. Bob Pettitt? Bob McAdoo? Russell as the best player on the far majority of 11 of his championship teams, but only 5 MVP's? Garnett with only 1 DPOY?

Some were homeruns, some weren't.

You've said pretty much everything I wanted to say, so TP for that.  TP also to PosImpos for the effort.

Would it be possible to also factor in runners-up for the MVP, DPOY and All-NBA teams?  I'd be interested to see how the list looked after that adjustment.  

I'd also feel free to adjust the list based on your own opinion.  Does Dwight Howard really deserve to be 30th when he's only been relevant for three or four years?  I like Big Ben and Dikembe on the list, but not in the top 25.  Reggie but no Ray?  LeBron at 24 but no Wade?  I'm also not fond of Kareem at #2, but for whatever reason I can't explain why, so I'll drop that one.

Still, most of your rankings are defensible at the least, and many are right on the money in my opinion.  Again, TP for the effort.