Wait a minute. What? Dirk is all of a sudden a better, all-time, PF than KG?

[Edgar]

Yeah...Dalls was going to Trade Dirk for KG coming off an MVP year...hahahahahahaha...how dumb is Minnesotta than really?
As someone else said, that was never on the table.
dallas wanted KG to be second fiddle to Dirk in fact.

And yes, Dirks run he just had ending in a championship was better than KGs championship run, and both runs changed how players will be ultimately looked at, so using the "in the moment" stuff doesnt work bc the same happened with KG a few years ago when previous to that he was always losing.
Also its not just "now" people think this...Dirk won his MVP in a year KG couldnt even carry his team to the playoffs, his team was actively looking to move him, and his GM later accusing him of quitting on the Wolves.

still they ask for Dirk.
Still Cuban considers.
still its great how one good series change perceptions

Its fun that "in the moment" is used whenever it works and discharged whenever it doesnt.

PF and PF... try another thing please unless you want to see Dirk play center.
That obviosly say something about who weights more


p.s. About the all mighty MVP nominations and wins, KG also had his 3 years from then remember...

 Garnett averaged 24.2 points, 13.9 rebounds, 5.0 assists, 2.2 blocks and 1.5 steals per game for the season. Having recorded career highs in points, rebounds, blocks and leading the league rebounds, Garnett was named the league Most Valuable Player for the first time in his career ( AND THIS wasnt even the best year of his carrer) amazing isnt it.





Adn yes I think  Michael Finley, Steve Nash and Dirk Nowitzki. can sweep KG alone.

Another interest FACT:
With a franchise-record 58 wins, the Wolves stormed into the playoffs, and finally vanquished their playoff bane by defeating the Denver Nuggets 4–1 in the first round. After disposing of the strong Sacramento Kings 4–3 in the Western Conference Semifinals, Garnett and the Timberwolves met the Lakers. Against the Lakers, playmaker Cassell went down with a back injury. With reserve point guard Hudson also injured, the Timberwolves alternated between third playmaker Darrick Martin and shooting guard Fred Hoiberg at the "one", or even running Garnett himself as point forward or a real point guard. The Los Angeles Lakers pulled off a 4–2 victory in the series


Ohh humanity, how history is easy to forget.

[Edgar]

I am ready for the Terry is better all time shooter than Ray Allen debate now.
Bring it on!!

[Moranis]

I'm actually a little shocked that some people are ranking Dirk as the better over all player to KG. So 15 years ago you would rather take Dirk than KG? I just find it baffling.

Has the argument even been brought up prior to 2 days ago?

If your argument is "KG is fading fast and Dirk is going to be dominant for another 3, 4 years" than at least I can understand the argument a bit more. But if you are talking right now, today than I don't think you can make a very strong case

I've long felt KG is a #2 and not a #1 type player.  I've had this discussion on this board in the past.  He just doesn't have that killer instinct, put a team on his back, and get out of the way mentality, which is why he has only had success when he had that sort of player with him (and I'm not talking about championships, but the fact that Minny never got out of the first round and was always right around the 50 win mark, shows what I'm talking about).  KG is a #2, the best #2 in history, but still a #2.  If I had a go to guy, I'd much prefer KG to Dirk, but if I'm taking a guy to be my #1 go to guy, I'd take Dirk and wouldn't give it a second thought.  Dirk is a money player, even the first finals Dirk played pretty well with just two bad games (game 1 which Dallas won, and Game 4 which Dallas lost) and Dirk carried that team to the Finals and they never should have been there.  

Dirk is a better scorer than KG even in his prime. But KG is literally better at everything else

Dirk has a higher PER, higher TS%, higher eFG%, a lower TOV%, a better ORTG, etc.  Now granted much of that is because of his offense, but he is a much better all around offensive player.  

But for me, it is the fact that Dirk is significantly better in the post season then he is in the regular season, while KG is similar if not worse in the post season then he is in the regular season.  That is why Dirk's teams are winners more times then not, while KG's were losers more times then not.  Dirk shows up in the big stage when it really counts.  That makes him a #1 and KG a #2.

And I mean no disrespect to KG as there are a number of all time great players that were more a #2 guy, like Scottie Pippen.  Lebron James may very well end up in that category as well, though he has carried some awful teams a long way so it is still yet to be seen with him.

[Edgar]

I'm actually a little shocked that some people are ranking Dirk as the better over all player to KG. So 15 years ago you would rather take Dirk than KG? I just find it baffling.

Has the argument even been brought up prior to 2 days ago?

If your argument is "KG is fading fast and Dirk is going to be dominant for another 3, 4 years" than at least I can understand the argument a bit more. But if you are talking right now, today than I don't think you can make a very strong case

I've long felt KG is a #2 and not a #1 type player.  I've had this discussion on this board in the past.  He just doesn't have that killer instinct, put a team on his back, and get out of the way mentality, which is why he has only had success when he had that sort of player with him (and I'm not talking about championships, but the fact that Minny never got out of the first round and was always right around the 50 win mark, shows what I'm talking about).  KG is a #2, the best #2 in history, but still a #2.  If I had a go to guy, I'd much prefer KG to Dirk, but if I'm taking a guy to be my #1 go to guy, I'd take Dirk and wouldn't give it a second thought.  Dirk is a money player, even the first finals Dirk played pretty well with just two bad games (game 1 which Dallas won, and Game 4 which Dallas lost) and Dirk carried that team to the Finals and they never should have been there. 

Dirk is a better scorer than KG even in his prime. But KG is literally better at everything else

Dirk has a higher PER, higher TS%, higher eFG%, a lower TOV%, a better ORTG, etc.  Now granted much of that is because of his offense, but he is a much better all around offensive player. 

But for me, it is the fact that Dirk is significantly better in the post season then he is in the regular season, while KG is similar if not worse in the post season then he is in the regular season.  That is why Dirk's teams are winners more times then not, while KG's were losers more times then not.  Dirk shows up in the big stage when it really counts.  That makes him a #1 and KG a #2.

And I mean no disrespect to KG as there are a number of all time great players that were more a #2 guy, like Scottie Pippen.  Lebron James may very well end up in that category as well, though he has carried some awful teams a long way so it is still yet to be seen with him.

see this is where i heavily disagre

ITs very difficult to win without supporting cast
Its even more difficult facing doubles and triple teams.

This is what makes me post this.

http://Adn yes I think  Michael Finley, Steve Nash and Dirk Nowitzki. can sweep KG alone.

Another interest FACT:
With a franchise-record 58 wins, the Wolves stormed into the playoffs, and finally vanquished their playoff bane by defeating the Denver Nuggets 4–1 in the first round. After disposing of the strong Sacramento Kings 4–3 in the Western Conference Semifinals, Garnett and the Timberwolves met the Lakers. Against the Lakers, playmaker Cassell went down with a back injury. With reserve point guard Hudson also injured, the Timberwolves alternated between third playmaker Darrick Martin and shooting guard Fred Hoiberg at the "one", or even running Garnett himself as point forward or a real point guard. The Los Angeles Lakers pulled off a 4–2 victory in the series

No way to admitt to rate "playoff stats" like valid meter at least not to rank him 1 and 2.

[CelticG1]

I'm actually a little shocked that some people are ranking Dirk as the better over all player to KG. So 15 years ago you would rather take Dirk than KG? I just find it baffling.

Has the argument even been brought up prior to 2 days ago?

If your argument is "KG is fading fast and Dirk is going to be dominant for another 3, 4 years" than at least I can understand the argument a bit more. But if you are talking right now, today than I don't think you can make a very strong case

I've long felt KG is a #2 and not a #1 type player.  I've had this discussion on this board in the past.  He just doesn't have that killer instinct, put a team on his back, and get out of the way mentality, which is why he has only had success when he had that sort of player with him (and I'm not talking about championships, but the fact that Minny never got out of the first round and was always right around the 50 win mark, shows what I'm talking about).  KG is a #2, the best #2 in history, but still a #2.  If I had a go to guy, I'd much prefer KG to Dirk, but if I'm taking a guy to be my #1 go to guy, I'd take Dirk and wouldn't give it a second thought.  Dirk is a money player, even the first finals Dirk played pretty well with just two bad games (game 1 which Dallas won, and Game 4 which Dallas lost) and Dirk carried that team to the Finals and they never should have been there.  

Dirk is a better scorer than KG even in his prime. But KG is literally better at everything else

Dirk has a higher PER, higher TS%, higher eFG%, a lower TOV%, a better ORTG, etc.  Now granted much of that is because of his offense, but he is a much better all around offensive player.  

But for me, it is the fact that Dirk is significantly better in the post season then he is in the regular season, while KG is similar if not worse in the post season then he is in the regular season.  That is why Dirk's teams are winners more times then not, while KG's were losers more times then not.  Dirk shows up in the big stage when it really counts.  That makes him a #1 and KG a #2.

And I mean no disrespect to KG as there are a number of all time great players that were more a #2 guy, like Scottie Pippen.  Lebron James may very well end up in that category as well, though he has carried some awful teams a long way so it is still yet to be seen with him.

I guess we can just agree to disagree. Dirk is an absolutely atrocious defender his entire career and has also been a pretty poor rebounder for his position. He's a great offensive player and I would rather him taking the last shot of a big game as opposed to KG but those other 40 plus minutes in a playoff game there really isn't a scenario where I'd rather have Dirk over KG. KG puts a stamp on every game he plays in because even if his offense isn't going his defense and rebounding were always there. For Dirk if his offense isn't going he is basically a decoy and that's about it.

You can compare rosters or whatever but I find it extremely hard to believe that if you subbed Dirk in for KG in the Minny years that they would not be a lotto team year after year.

If we want discuss greatest PF of this era we should be talking about Duncan and KG. Maybe if Dirk continues his level of play for a few more years but right now I think Duncan and KG are more on par when you are factoring in offense AND DEFENSE

[Moranis]

I'm actually a little shocked that some people are ranking Dirk as the better over all player to KG. So 15 years ago you would rather take Dirk than KG? I just find it baffling.

Has the argument even been brought up prior to 2 days ago?

If your argument is "KG is fading fast and Dirk is going to be dominant for another 3, 4 years" than at least I can understand the argument a bit more. But if you are talking right now, today than I don't think you can make a very strong case

I've long felt KG is a #2 and not a #1 type player.  I've had this discussion on this board in the past.  He just doesn't have that killer instinct, put a team on his back, and get out of the way mentality, which is why he has only had success when he had that sort of player with him (and I'm not talking about championships, but the fact that Minny never got out of the first round and was always right around the 50 win mark, shows what I'm talking about).  KG is a #2, the best #2 in history, but still a #2.  If I had a go to guy, I'd much prefer KG to Dirk, but if I'm taking a guy to be my #1 go to guy, I'd take Dirk and wouldn't give it a second thought.  Dirk is a money player, even the first finals Dirk played pretty well with just two bad games (game 1 which Dallas won, and Game 4 which Dallas lost) and Dirk carried that team to the Finals and they never should have been there.  

Dirk is a better scorer than KG even in his prime. But KG is literally better at everything else

Dirk has a higher PER, higher TS%, higher eFG%, a lower TOV%, a better ORTG, etc.  Now granted much of that is because of his offense, but he is a much better all around offensive player.  

But for me, it is the fact that Dirk is significantly better in the post season then he is in the regular season, while KG is similar if not worse in the post season then he is in the regular season.  That is why Dirk's teams are winners more times then not, while KG's were losers more times then not.  Dirk shows up in the big stage when it really counts.  That makes him a #1 and KG a #2.

And I mean no disrespect to KG as there are a number of all time great players that were more a #2 guy, like Scottie Pippen.  Lebron James may very well end up in that category as well, though he has carried some awful teams a long way so it is still yet to be seen with him.

I guess we can just agree to disagree. Dirk is an absolutely atrocious defender his entire career and has also been a pretty poor rebounder for his position. He's a great offensive player and I would rather him taking the last shot of a big game as opposed to KG but those other 40 plus minutes in a playoff game there really isn't a scenario where I'd rather have Dirk over KG. KG puts a stamp on every game he plays in because even if his offense isn't going his defense and rebounding were always there. For Dirk if his offense isn't going he is basically a decoy and that's about it.

You can compare rosters or whatever but I find it extremely hard to believe that if you subbed Dirk in for KG in the Minny years that they would not be a lotto team year after year.

If we want discuss greatest PF of this era we should be talking about Duncan and KG. Maybe if Dirk continues his level of play for a few more years but right now I think Duncan and KG are more on par when you are factoring in offense AND DEFENSE

Dirk is a 26 point, 10.5 rebound player in the post season in his career.  He steps up when he needs to. 

[CelticG1]

I'm actually a little shocked that some people are ranking Dirk as the better over all player to KG. So 15 years ago you would rather take Dirk than KG? I just find it baffling.

Has the argument even been brought up prior to 2 days ago?

If your argument is "KG is fading fast and Dirk is going to be dominant for another 3, 4 years" than at least I can understand the argument a bit more. But if you are talking right now, today than I don't think you can make a very strong case

I've long felt KG is a #2 and not a #1 type player.  I've had this discussion on this board in the past.  He just doesn't have that killer instinct, put a team on his back, and get out of the way mentality, which is why he has only had success when he had that sort of player with him (and I'm not talking about championships, but the fact that Minny never got out of the first round and was always right around the 50 win mark, shows what I'm talking about).  KG is a #2, the best #2 in history, but still a #2.  If I had a go to guy, I'd much prefer KG to Dirk, but if I'm taking a guy to be my #1 go to guy, I'd take Dirk and wouldn't give it a second thought.  Dirk is a money player, even the first finals Dirk played pretty well with just two bad games (game 1 which Dallas won, and Game 4 which Dallas lost) and Dirk carried that team to the Finals and they never should have been there.  

Dirk is a better scorer than KG even in his prime. But KG is literally better at everything else

Dirk has a higher PER, higher TS%, higher eFG%, a lower TOV%, a better ORTG, etc.  Now granted much of that is because of his offense, but he is a much better all around offensive player.  

But for me, it is the fact that Dirk is significantly better in the post season then he is in the regular season, while KG is similar if not worse in the post season then he is in the regular season.  That is why Dirk's teams are winners more times then not, while KG's were losers more times then not.  Dirk shows up in the big stage when it really counts.  That makes him a #1 and KG a #2.

And I mean no disrespect to KG as there are a number of all time great players that were more a #2 guy, like Scottie Pippen.  Lebron James may very well end up in that category as well, though he has carried some awful teams a long way so it is still yet to be seen with him.

I guess we can just agree to disagree. Dirk is an absolutely atrocious defender his entire career and has also been a pretty poor rebounder for his position. He's a great offensive player and I would rather him taking the last shot of a big game as opposed to KG but those other 40 plus minutes in a playoff game there really isn't a scenario where I'd rather have Dirk over KG. KG puts a stamp on every game he plays in because even if his offense isn't going his defense and rebounding were always there. For Dirk if his offense isn't going he is basically a decoy and that's about it.

You can compare rosters or whatever but I find it extremely hard to believe that if you subbed Dirk in for KG in the Minny years that they would not be a lotto team year after year.

If we want discuss greatest PF of this era we should be talking about Duncan and KG. Maybe if Dirk continues his level of play for a few more years but right now I think Duncan and KG are more on par when you are factoring in offense AND DEFENSE

Dirk is a 26 point, 10.5 rebound player in the post season in his career.  He steps up when he needs to. 

?? Okay KG is a 19.6 points, 11.1 rebound, 3.8 assists oh and has played all-world defense in the post season.

[RebusRankin]

The 01/02 Billups/WallyWorld/Rasho/Peeler core is not better than Nash/Finly/Van Exel/LaFrentz.

KG's best teammate 98-03 was who Wally? Brandon? So what a 3 or a 4 on a good team. Dirk had Nash and Finley in the same period.

[BASS_THUMPER]

I am ready for the Terry is better all time shooter than Ray Allen debate now.
Bring it on!!

well..he did his thang mr ed

[Big Ticket]

Hard not to give Dirk the nod given their respective resumes at this point.

But take one for one season in their prime?  KG without hesitation.

[KGs Knee]

WOW!

I started this thread 2 days ago, and just now signed back in, to see that an 8 page, 100+ comment debate ensued.  When I 1st posted, I was simply putting in writing how aghast I was that anyone would even consider the notion of Dirk being better than KG.  I am all for debate, but never expected this.

I guess ESPN really has brainwashed the majority of basketball fans into thinking offense is the only aspect of the game that matters.  These prisoner-of-the-moment ESPN fools, specifically Jalen Rose, have now gone so far as to say Dirk is currently the best player in the world.

GOOD GRIEF CHARLIE BROWN!

[BballTim]

Hard not to give Dirk the nod given their respective resumes at this point.

  Dirk: MVP, Finals MVP, 10 time all-star, 4 1st team all nba, 5 2nd team all nba, led the league in PER twice, finished top 5 in MVP voting 3 times.

  KG: MVP, DPOY, 14 time all-star, 4 time all-nba 1st team, 3 times all-nba 2nd team, 9 times all defense 1st team, led the league in PER twice and rebounds per game 4 times, finished top 5 in MVP voting 5 times.

  If you ignore the 9 times all defense 1st team (2nd team twice as well), the rest of their resume is pretty close.

[footey]

Both all time greats with different skill sets.

[KGs Knee]

I only have one question?

How many here actually watched KG play at the peak of his powers in Minny?

This man could literally do almost anything on the basketball court.  Had he been blessed with some real teammates, he quite possibly could have gone down as one of the top 10 players of all-time (regardless of position).  The stats (nevermind the voted upon accolades), don't even begin to speak to how good he was.  He was one of the most complete, all-around players ever.

It is a basketball tragedy what has happened to his legacy.

[moiso]

All of sudden, he never had any strong teammates.


People ignoring players like Nash, Finley, Kidd, Terry, Jamison, Walker,

Nash wasn't the same level of player he became, in part because Dirk didn't let him dominate the ball.

But yeah, Dallas has had a lot of good teams around Dirk. Never really a great supporting cast, but always average to very good.

Not a ringing endorsement for a player being the 2nd best PF of all time.  

That's not true though. The same could be said about any all time great if he were to play alongside Nash.

I thinks it works the other way.


Put the ball in Nash's hands, he will get the best out of the offensive players around him. 


Playing with Bird allowed the best out of Parrish and Mchale.

Playing with KG allowed the best out of Pierce and Ray. 


The best out of a player does not always mean highest stats. 

Nash had the ball in his hands plenty.  Don Nelson just couldn't get him to be as aggressive all the time like he became in Phoenix.