Wait a minute. What? Dirk is all of a sudden a better, all-time, PF than KG?

[Fafnir]

All of sudden, he never had any strong teammates.


People ignoring players like Nash, Finley, Kidd, Terry, Jamison, Walker,

Nash wasn't the same level of player he became, in part because Dirk didn't let him dominate the ball.

But yeah, Dallas has had a lot of good teams around Dirk. Never really a great supporting cast, but always average to very good.

Not a ringing endorsement for a player being the 2nd best PF of all time.  

That's not true though. The same could be said about any all time great if he were to play alongside Nash.

I think its a greater knock on Nash. He is/was unable to impact the game unless he dominates the ball with his dribbling.

Haha, really?  He's a point guard.....

He doesn't necessarily have to dominate the ball, but the ball has to at least always start in his hands.

There is a difference between being a PG and initiating the offense, and dominating the ball while constantly dribbling around in P&Rs and other motion like Nash does in the Phoenix Suns system.

Plenty of PGs dominate the ball far less than nash does and still are amazing offensive facilitators.

[RebusRankin]

KG never had teammates like Nash and Finley in Minnesota. The one year he got talent and that was a 33 year old Sprewell and a 34 year old Cassell he made the WCF and likely wins the title if Cassell doesn't hurt himself in game one of the WCF.

[guava_wrench]

So far today, he has been said to be better then KG, Malone, Barkley, McHale...

And on par with Bird. 

He's a great talent but I'd take those 5 over him all day.  I might have to think a couple of seconds with Barkley but I think I'd still take Charles even though he never got a title.  The only thing that blocked him from doing so was Jordan.  (and if Jordan hadn't retired that first time, Hakeem would have had the same knock on him)

The Miami Heat might not be Jordan and the Bulls but I think there definitely would have been a built in excuse for Dirk if the Mavs lost. It would have been Dirk not having enough talent and playing against a super team with the 2 best players in the league.

I think it is on par with Barkley and Malone if they upset Jordan and the Bulls one year

Couldn't disagree more - the Bulls were an accomplished team thats core had been together for years by the time they took on the Suns and the Jazz.

The Heat - while extremely talented - are in their first year together and haven't yet won a title (!!!). There is a huge discrepancy between the two

Yeah that makes sense I just hate and think it's a stupid argument to say that so and so would have won a title if it weren't for Jordan. I mean how many times did Malone and Barkley even make it to the finals? I guess it would make a little sense if Utah played MJ and the Bulls in the finals 6 times and lost 6 times.

I do think that if Dirk lost this finals he would have ABSOLUTELY been given a pass. The media was basically saying as much before the series started. The Mavs must have been HUGE underdogs no?

But Malone would have won a title if not for Jordan. The Jazz were a dominant team when they made the finals but they couldn't get past Jordan in 2 close finals series.

The Mavs were not underdogs at all. Look at EPSN predictions. More than half the guys picked the Mavs. The Mavs were solid all season except for a period where Dirk got hurt and they also had to deal with replacing Butler. They started the season the way they ended it -- confusing teams with effective zone defense.

[RebusRankin]

Heck the 2003/2004 Mavs had Nash, Finley, Walker, Jamison and a rookie Howard. Think KG doesn't take that group to a title? Dirk led it to a first round loss.

[mgent]

All of sudden, he never had any strong teammates.


People ignoring players like Nash, Finley, Kidd, Terry, Jamison, Walker,

Nash wasn't the same level of player he became, in part because Dirk didn't let him dominate the ball.

But yeah, Dallas has had a lot of good teams around Dirk. Never really a great supporting cast, but always average to very good.

Not a ringing endorsement for a player being the 2nd best PF of all time.  

That's not true though. The same could be said about any all time great if he were to play alongside Nash.

I think its a greater knock on Nash. He is/was unable to impact the game unless he dominates the ball with his dribbling.

Haha, really?  He's a point guard.....

He doesn't necessarily have to dominate the ball, but the ball has to at least always start in his hands.

There is a difference between being a PG and initiating the offense, and dominating the ball while constantly dribbling around in P&Rs and other motion like Nash does in the Phoenix Suns system.

Plenty of PGs dominate the ball far less than nash does and still are amazing offensive facilitators.

Okay, but now we're talking about Nash on the Suns, not Nash with a good player like Dirk.  Phoenix is filled with crappy role players that need Nash to do what he's doing now.

I don't see how an old man with bad players that still manages 10apg is anything other than an amazing facilitator.  He's keeping his dribble alive so the defense focuses on him.  I don't consider that ball dominance.  Guys like Rose and Wade are ball-dominate.  They start with the ball in their hands, and finish the possession with the ball leaving their hands (looking to score themselves).  Nash is nothing like that, he's a pass-first player.

[guava_wrench]

Heck the 2003/2004 Mavs had Nash, Finley, Walker, Jamison and a rookie Howard. Think KG doesn't take that group to a title? Dirk led it to a first round loss.

No defense. That's a good roster for regular season success.

Let's be honest about Dirk. He was very limited back then. He played farther from the basket and had not yet developed his post game that is his bread and butter these days.

[Moranis]

I don't think KG leads the 05-06 Mavs to the finals.  That team just wasn't very good aside from Dirk.  I mean the rotation was essentially Jason Terry, Devin Harris, Josh Howard, Erick Dampier, Jerry Stackhouse, Adrian Griffin, Desagna Diop, and Marquis Daniels.  

That is a pretty poor team, especially defensively.  They won 60 games with 14 different starters and guys like Rawle Marshall started 9 games.  Only 4 players even played in 63 or more games (Dirk, Terry, Dampier, and Diop).  I just don't see KG being able to do that nor do I see that team as all that much worse then any number of the Wolves teams.  For example, the 01/02 Wolves had KG, Billups, Wally, Joe Smith, Rasho, Peeler, Trent, and Mitchell as the basic rotation.  It won 50 games and were swept by Dirk's Mavs in the first round (Dirk, Nash, Finley, LaFrentz, Van Exel, Najera, Zhizhi, and Buckner was the playoff rotation).  

While KG is a better defensive player then Dirk he isn't a crunch time player.  He is very similar to Lebron in that regard, which is why KG constantly came up short in the big games in Minnesota.  KG has always been a Pippen like player and needed that MJ type player to take over in crunch time.  Pierce is that guy and in his one season in Minnesota in which he won a playoff series, Spreewell (and Sam I Am to a lesser extent) filled that role.  

That is why If I'm picking a player to be my #1 go to guy, I'm taking Dirk.  If I already have a #1 guy, I'd much rather have KG as my #2 then Dirk.

[Fafnir]

All of sudden, he never had any strong teammates.


People ignoring players like Nash, Finley, Kidd, Terry, Jamison, Walker,

Nash wasn't the same level of player he became, in part because Dirk didn't let him dominate the ball.

But yeah, Dallas has had a lot of good teams around Dirk. Never really a great supporting cast, but always average to very good.

Not a ringing endorsement for a player being the 2nd best PF of all time.  

That's not true though. The same could be said about any all time great if he were to play alongside Nash.

I think its a greater knock on Nash. He is/was unable to impact the game unless he dominates the ball with his dribbling.

Haha, really?  He's a point guard.....

He doesn't necessarily have to dominate the ball, but the ball has to at least always start in his hands.

There is a difference between being a PG and initiating the offense, and dominating the ball while constantly dribbling around in P&Rs and other motion like Nash does in the Phoenix Suns system.

Plenty of PGs dominate the ball far less than nash does and still are amazing offensive facilitators.

Okay, but now we're talking about Nash on the Suns, not Nash with a good player like Dirk.  Phoenix is filled with crappy role players that need Nash to do what he's doing now.

That's my point though, Nash wasn't the player he became when he had another go to guy who needed the ball.

His game was also hurt by Shaq while he was there in my opinion. I think that as a great PG it shouldn't hurt your impact if you have better offensive players around you. Especially when your value is entirely on the offensive end of the court.

It wasn't meant to be a criticism of how he plays now, that's clearly the best way for him to win with the current roster. (and also for the entire Suns run with Nash, they've always had a lack of playmakers other than Nash once Joe Johnson was traded)

[CelticG1]

So far today, he has been said to be better then KG, Malone, Barkley, McHale...

And on par with Bird. 

He's a great talent but I'd take those 5 over him all day.  I might have to think a couple of seconds with Barkley but I think I'd still take Charles even though he never got a title.  The only thing that blocked him from doing so was Jordan.  (and if Jordan hadn't retired that first time, Hakeem would have had the same knock on him)

The Miami Heat might not be Jordan and the Bulls but I think there definitely would have been a built in excuse for Dirk if the Mavs lost. It would have been Dirk not having enough talent and playing against a super team with the 2 best players in the league.

I think it is on par with Barkley and Malone if they upset Jordan and the Bulls one year

Couldn't disagree more - the Bulls were an accomplished team thats core had been together for years by the time they took on the Suns and the Jazz.

The Heat - while extremely talented - are in their first year together and haven't yet won a title (!!!). There is a huge discrepancy between the two

Yeah that makes sense I just hate and think it's a stupid argument to say that so and so would have won a title if it weren't for Jordan. I mean how many times did Malone and Barkley even make it to the finals? I guess it would make a little sense if Utah played MJ and the Bulls in the finals 6 times and lost 6 times.

I do think that if Dirk lost this finals he would have ABSOLUTELY been given a pass. The media was basically saying as much before the series started. The Mavs must have been HUGE underdogs no?

But Malone would have won a title if not for Jordan. The Jazz were a dominant team when they made the finals but they couldn't get past Jordan in 2 close finals series.

The Mavs were not underdogs at all. Look at EPSN predictions. More than half the guys picked the Mavs. The Mavs were solid all season except for a period where Dirk got hurt and they also had to deal with replacing Butler. They started the season the way they ended it -- confusing teams with effective zone defense.

How do you know they would have won a title? They lost to the bulls in 6 both years. One of those years the Pacers took the Bulls to 7. He (they) could only lead their team to the finals 2 times in total anyway.

Just the whole idea of making comments like those just doesn't make any sense. Basically if a great player wasn't alive a other players would have won championships. It takes away from Malone and guys like that to basically say because of Michael Jordan and how great Jordan was that they have a valid excuse for not winning a ship.



I don't know what the split was with a couple media people and their predictions but I think most people in the world thought the Heat were going to win.

[StartOrien]

I don't know what the split was with a couple media people and their predictions but I think most people in the world thought the Heat were going to win.

I believe the Vegas line was +150 in favor of the Heat. That makes them the favorite, but far from an overwhelming favorite.

[CelticG1]

I don't think KG leads the 05-06 Mavs to the finals.  That team just wasn't very good aside from Dirk.  I mean the rotation was essentially Jason Terry, Devin Harris, Josh Howard, Erick Dampier, Jerry Stackhouse, Adrian Griffin, Desagna Diop, and Marquis Daniels.  

That is a pretty poor team, especially defensively.  They won 60 games with 14 different starters and guys like Rawle Marshall started 9 games.  Only 4 players even played in 63 or more games (Dirk, Terry, Dampier, and Diop).  I just don't see KG being able to do that nor do I see that team as all that much worse then any number of the Wolves teams.  For example, the 01/02 Wolves had KG, Billups, Wally, Joe Smith, Rasho, Peeler, Trent, and Mitchell as the basic rotation.  It won 50 games and were swept by Dirk's Mavs in the first round (Dirk, Nash, Finley, LaFrentz, Van Exel, Najera, Zhizhi, and Buckner was the playoff rotation).  

While KG is a better defensive player then Dirk he isn't a crunch time player.  He is very similar to Lebron in that regard, which is why KG constantly came up short in the big games in Minnesota.  KG has always been a Pippen like player and needed that MJ type player to take over in crunch time.  Pierce is that guy and in his one season in Minnesota in which he won a playoff series, Spreewell (and Sam I Am to a lesser extent) filled that role.  

That is why If I'm picking a player to be my #1 go to guy, I'm taking Dirk.  If I already have a #1 guy, I'd much rather have KG as my #2 then Dirk.

KG not being a crunch time player is the biggest myth. You can pick out 3 or 4 plays just from this most recent playoffs where he made huge plays offensively and defensively during crunch times to basically win games.

Not picking a KG in his prime as your number 1 guy just seems ridiculous to me. He is as dominant a 2 way player as you will pretty much find in the history of the NBA during those prime years.

Also maybe aside from Lebron has anyone else come up more short than Dirk prior to this championship?

Losing to an 8th seed with the 1 spot one year another year Being up 2 games to 0 in the finals with homecourt  and coming up short last year losing to a 7th seed with the 2 seed.

Maybe KG came up short a couple times but for the most part it was against teams where they were completely out matched

[RebusRankin]

Game 7 WSF, KG has 32pts, 21reb, 5b, 5stls, yep couldn't carry a team.

Do you want to tell me that KG was Stackhouse, Dampier, Harris, Howard and Finley doesn't make the Finals? Please. 

[Moranis]

Maybe KG came up short a couple times but for the most part it was against teams where they were completely out matched

except that isn't entirely true.  Seattle wasn't a better team and KG was by far the best player in that series in 97/98.  99/00 KG was horrible in the playoff loss to Portland.  Brandon was the best player for the Wolves that post season and it wasn't close.  Aside from Duncan and a very old Robinson, the Spurs were a fairly poor team in 00/01, yet easily beat KG's wolves.  Dallas in 01/02, which I described above, wasn't better then Minnesota.  The Wolves with KG, Spree, Cassell, and Wally didn't even make the playoffs in 04/05.  The Wolves weren't enough close to the playoffs the next two seasons with KG still very much in his prime.  An all time great player should never miss the post season for three consecutive seasons in his prime.  It just shouldn't happen, yet it did with KG.  And that is with just two post season series victories in his first 8 playoffs, including 7 straight seasons without a series victory.

KG is not a #1.  He is perhaps the best #2 ever, but he just doesn't have what it takes to be a #1 player, which is more then evident by looking at his career.  

[paulcowens]

Dirk is really a shooting forward, not a power forward.

[get_banners]

Dirk is a great player, a HOFer (like the guy picked right after him in that draft)...but this is all emotional, short-memory stuff. Dirk is, without a doubt, one of the 5 greatest offensive PF's ever. But, he isn't a good defensive player. He's not as terrible as he used to be, but he's not really good. Just from his generation, he is not better than KG or Duncan. Both of those guys dominated on both ends of the court. And, yes, Dirk had MUCH better talent around him his whole career than did KG.