Author Topic: Tim Donaghy accuses JVG of betting on the Heat based on inside info  (Read 21927 times)

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Re: Tim Donaghy accuses JVG of betting on the Heat based on inside info
« Reply #60 on: June 03, 2011, 01:28:38 PM »

Offline Finkelskyhook

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On a side note.



Is it against the rules for color guys to bet on games?  They can't control anything on the court.

I don't necessarily believe that in the bigger picture.  If the color guys were mentioning the obvious violations and biases..(Particularly if they did it consistently)..Particularly after replays show how obvious those violations are.  Instead of blindly celebrating the greatness of Stern's (and therefore their) chosen ones and teams.  If the analysts made the bias obvious to the casual fan, IMHO there would be pressure to call the games more accurately.

Re: Tim Donaghy accuses JVG of betting on the Heat based on inside info
« Reply #61 on: June 03, 2011, 01:30:03 PM »

Offline Chris

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1. "superstar calls" and "rookie calls". why do they exist? a foul is a foul, regadless of who the person is committing the foul or receiving the foul.


Just to play devils advocate, I think the labeling of "superstar calls" and "rookie calls" really puts a preconceived notion in peoples minds, which might in fact change the perception, and make people, perhaps incorrectly, prescribe a cause for the calls.

I won't argue that these calls don't happen.  They absolutely do.  However, I think I would more accurately call these are "reputation" calls.  

Calling an NBA game is incredibly hard.  It is just so incredibly fast, and the line is so fine on some of these calls, that it really is impossible for someone to always make the right call when watching them at full speed from the floor.  So, just like in many aspects of life, the refs (or their unconscious brains) use the preconcieved notions to help them make the calls.

They review a ton of film, and they know these players.  They know which ones have good footwork (and Lebron and Wade both have tremendous footwork), and who has bad footwork.  They know who is able to reach in without making contact, and who isn't.  They know who is good at establishing position for a charge, and who doesn't.

So, when it comes to make these calls, if it is not an obvious call, these biases rear their head.  But it is not because one guy is a superstar, and one guy is a rookie.  It is that one guy has shown over and over again that he can make that play cleanly, and another guy hasn't.

Obviously, it is not ideal.  We would prefer that they were always "right", but when you are working with humans, this is what you get.  Sure, some guys get the benefit of the doubt more than others, but I would argue that benefit of the doubt is earned by showing they are capable of making those plays.  

obviously people make mistakes and have preconceived notions....however, can you really, in good faith, say the nba officiating is above average? can you also say, in good faith, that it is consistent? 

BTW, "superstar"/"rookie" vs "reputation", its all basically the same thing, just a different label

Honestly, I am not sure its above average.  There is nothing to compare it to.  I just think it is so much faster than college basketball, that it is hard to compare.  

I think there are certainly some refs that are better than others.  

Overall I do think its consistent though.  I think more often than not they get the calls right, and I think more often than not, the bad calls even themselves out.  

Would I like them to be better?  Absolutely.  Do I think its possible?  I am not completely sure of that.

As far as the labels, you are right, they are just labels.  But I think labels like that do a lot to influence the perception.  

For example, I don't think anyone would call Big Baby drawing a charge call as being a "superstar" call, however, I would argue that he gets those calls the exact same way Lebron gets away with travels.  He has built a reputation, and now he gets the benefit of the doubt.  But, by just calling them superstar calls, it allows people to then use it as a conspiracy theory that they are made to prop up the superstars, ignoring the fact that there are plenty of non-superstars who get the same preferential treatment.

Re: Tim Donaghy accuses JVG of betting on the Heat based on inside info
« Reply #62 on: June 03, 2011, 01:30:23 PM »

Offline mgent

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I will personally cut off my right hand if the refs don't end up doing EVERY SINGLE THING IN THEIR POWER (WHICH IS A LOT) to hand the Heat a ring on a silver platter.
Philly:

Anderson Varejao    Tiago Splitter    Matt Bonner
David West    Kenyon Martin    Brad Miller
Andre Iguodala    Josh Childress    Marquis Daniels
Dwyane Wade    Leandro Barbosa
Kirk Hinrich    Toney Douglas   + the legendary Kevin McHale

Re: Tim Donaghy accuses JVG of betting on the Heat based on inside info
« Reply #63 on: June 03, 2011, 01:39:49 PM »

Offline Finkelskyhook

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Calling an NBA game is incredibly hard.  It is just so incredibly fast, and the line is so fine on some of these calls, that it really is impossible for someone to always make the right call when watching them at full speed from the floor.  So, just like in many aspects of life, the refs (or their unconscious brains) use the preconcieved notions to help them make the calls.

They review a ton of film, and they know these players.  They know which ones have good footwork (and Lebron and Wade both have tremendous footwork), and who has bad footwork.  They know who is able to reach in without making contact, and who isn't.  They know who is good at establishing position for a charge, and who doesn't.

So, when it comes to make these calls, if it is not an obvious call, these biases rear their head
.

The speed of the game is the reasoning I buy the least.

The calls I consistently talk about are blatant and in perfect view of the best officials in the world.  We talk about the accuracy of college refs...An AAU ref would call these more than NBA refs do....And they'd be right.  You could quadruple the messiah's speed and from 3 feet away you can clearly see his pivot foot change twice before he shoots the 3 in the second quarter of last night's game....There were officials on either side watching him who had a better view than we did from our television.  I laughed...But the laugh was a carryover from the 4ft stride and the step that Wade took before his dribble hit the floor with the official directly behind him before he sent the messiah the pass in the first place.  

You could warp-speed this stuff and still see it


Re: Tim Donaghy accuses JVG of betting on the Heat based on inside info
« Reply #64 on: June 03, 2011, 01:46:31 PM »

Offline Donoghus

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You could warp-speed this stuff and still see it


Real easy for you to say since you're not the one on the court seeing it.  You can sit up on your pedestal and say this & that but until you're on the court, you really can't make a conclusive statement of what's going and, even then, you may not be able to be.

Watch any NBA game at floor level and its abundantly clear how fast the action is at that level.  Calls are gonna be missed and its not always because of biases.  Sometimes, they're generally missed.

Biases exist at any level of basketball.  AAU, College, it doesn't matter.  Its not exclusive to the NBA.



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Re: Tim Donaghy accuses JVG of betting on the Heat based on inside info
« Reply #65 on: June 03, 2011, 01:54:14 PM »

Offline greenpride32

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I won't argue that these calls don't happen.  They absolutely do.  However, I think I would more accurately call these are "reputation" calls.  


The bottom line is a call should be made when it is seen.  Not if it possibly happened, but it was too fast I missed it.  There are so many examples of phantom calls where a player isn't even touched but according to the ref they were fouled.  Your definition of "reputation" call is really no different than a "superstar" call.

You can't just assume a foul was committed if LBJ or DWade or D12 went to the hole in traffic.  And if it was Ronny Turiaf or Jeff Foster you can't just assume they didn't get fouled.  A foul is a foul.

Now fouls are going to occur that nobody saw; that happens in every sport and I can live with that.  But phantom fouls do nothing but give an unfair advantage to a player and/or team.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2011, 02:00:10 PM by greenpride32 »

Re: Tim Donaghy accuses JVG of betting on the Heat based on inside info
« Reply #66 on: June 03, 2011, 02:01:23 PM »

Offline Mr October

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On reputation calls...

After reviewing Lebron's tendency to have happy feet and travel, shouldn't the refs then see that he has a reputation to travel and call it more?

The officials seem to miss an awful lot of those travels in critical situations. And then the announcers don't say anything about it. Controversial calls are almost never shown in replay on ABC anymore.

I smell smoke.


Re: Tim Donaghy accuses JVG of betting on the Heat based on inside info
« Reply #67 on: June 03, 2011, 02:03:33 PM »

Offline Chris

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On reputation calls...

After reviewing Lebron's tendency to have happy feet and travel, shouldn't the refs then see that he has a reputation to travel and call it more?

The officials seem to miss an awful lot of those travels in critical situations. And then the officials don't say anything about it. Controversial calls are almost never shown in replay on ABC anymore.

I smell smoke.



I am not convinced he does travel that much.  I think in many cases, he makes plays that look like travels, but when you break them down, the vast majority of them actually aren't.


Re: Tim Donaghy accuses JVG of betting on the Heat based on inside info
« Reply #68 on: June 03, 2011, 02:24:59 PM »

Offline Finkelskyhook

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You could warp-speed this stuff and still see it


Real easy for you to say since you're not the one on the court seeing it.  You can sit up on your pedestal and say this & that but until you're on the court, you really can't make a conclusive statement of what's going and, even then, you may not be able to be.

Watch any NBA game at floor level and its abundantly clear how fast the action is at that level.  Calls are gonna be missed and its not always because of biases.  Sometimes, they're generally missed.

Biases exist at any level of basketball.  AAU, College, it doesn't matter.  Its not exclusive to the NBA.

IT'S THEIR FREAKING JOB TO SEE IT, Donaghus....Or in a lot of obvious cases...Not see it.

If a camera can see it 50 feet or further away so it is clear to somebody with a rudimentary knowledge of the game...then the best trained official can see it at any speed...process it and make or not make the call....Exactly as they are trained and ordered to do.

An NBA official misses a shuffle of the feet 3 feet in front of them when Kendrick Perkins or Tyson Chandler does it once in a hundred times it happens.  But they miss it a 99 times out of a hundred times when the messiah does it.  

And by the way they are directed to officiate, (And the analysts are told to...and not to analyze) both scenarios are accurate.  

Speed is irrelevent.

The officials are remarkably consistent on whom they get the calls right and whom they don't.  So much so that it's obvious that they're doing what they're supposed to do.

Re: Tim Donaghy accuses JVG of betting on the Heat based on inside info
« Reply #69 on: June 03, 2011, 02:40:38 PM »

Offline Finkelskyhook

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On reputation calls...

After reviewing Lebron's tendency to have happy feet and travel, shouldn't the refs then see that he has a reputation to travel and call it more?

The officials seem to miss an awful lot of those travels in critical situations. And then the officials don't say anything about it. Controversial calls are almost never shown in replay on ABC anymore.

I smell smoke.



I am not convinced he does travel that much.  I think in many cases, he makes plays that look like travels, but when you break them down, the vast majority of them actually aren't.



But he never gets called, Chris.  Particularly in crunch time.  For anything. He never fouls out of a game.  Ever.  The broadcaster and the color guys on TNT, ABC, and ESPN virtually never spot his violations after replay after replay.  How else can you explain it?
Why is everybody so complicit? 

We can argue back in forth about Donaghy.  But pre-Jordan, Donaghy would have been laughed out of the NBA before he ever got into the league.  He'd have been an island.  He hid in plain sight because way Jordan was biased changed the game and made "objectivity" the norm.  As Jordan's....And the NBA's popularity grew, they doubled-down on star calls...To the point now where it wouldn't be a surprise to see a dozen Donaghys pop up....Or none at all.

The best trained officials in the world are doing exactly what they're told to do.

Re: Tim Donaghy accuses JVG of betting on the Heat based on inside info
« Reply #70 on: June 03, 2011, 02:44:04 PM »

Offline Chris

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Why is everybody so complicit? 


Maybe they are not complicit, maybe you are biased and refusing to see what is happening.  I know a huge percentage of the time when I think Lebron "clearly" fouled someone, they show the replay, and it is clear that he didn't in fact foul them, he just made what I thought was a nearly impossible basketball play. 

The guy is a freak, and he plays an incredibly clean game defensively.  His athleticism and length allow him to get to balls that no one else can get to.

Re: Tim Donaghy accuses JVG of betting on the Heat based on inside info
« Reply #71 on: June 03, 2011, 02:48:12 PM »

Offline soap07

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Usually, any conversation with Finkelskyhook goes like this...

Finkelskyhook: Ridiculous and unsubstantiated claim
Poster A: But that's ridiculous and unsubstantiated! And here's a ton of evidence as to why...
Finkelskyhook: So what? Repeats claim....

I have to wonder at this point - for a game that you seem to hate so much, why do you continue to watch it? If there is such a big conspiracy, if everything is fixed, why do you continue to expound so much energy to talk about it?

You have so much dislike for almost every player in the league (ie. Steve Nash shouldn't criticize the government because he's rich in the country, or something) and the people that run the league. I'm just confused as to why you watch it.








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Re: Tim Donaghy accuses JVG of betting on the Heat based on inside info
« Reply #72 on: June 03, 2011, 02:49:08 PM »

Offline soap07

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Quote
But he never gets called, Chris.  Particularly in crunch time.  For anything.

How about the OT game against the Bulls where he charged at the end of regulation and was called for it?

Re: Tim Donaghy accuses JVG of betting on the Heat based on inside info
« Reply #73 on: June 03, 2011, 03:13:08 PM »

Offline ThaPreacher

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Usually, any conversation with Finkelskyhook goes like this...

Finkelskyhook: Ridiculous and unsubstantiated claim
Poster A: But that's ridiculous and unsubstantiated! And here's a ton of evidence as to why...
Finkelskyhook: So what? Repeats claim....

I have to wonder at this point - for a game that you seem to hate so much, why do you continue to watch it? If there is such a big conspiracy, if everything is fixed, why do you continue to expound so much energy to talk about it?

You have so much dislike for almost every player in the league (ie. Steve Nash shouldn't criticize the government because he's rich in the country, or something) and the people that run the league. I'm just confused as to why you watch it.











Soap,  you may not agree with Finkelshook, but the fact that he knows who Hank Finkel is should be worth something. (Finkelshook, tell me your name is after High Henry Hank)

No need to publically discredit him.  /slaps Soap with Technical Foul, (free throws and loss of the coaches box).
There are alot of unsubstantiated claims on forums.  We are all Celtic Fans who need to bide our time until next season.
If you really don't agree with him message him, but no need to flame.

P.S.  The World Is Not Flat,,,,,I don't think.
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Re: Tim Donaghy accuses JVG of betting on the Heat based on inside info
« Reply #74 on: June 03, 2011, 03:15:46 PM »

Offline JSD

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Well, Donaghy needs to make a living somehow.