Author Topic: Tim Donaghy accuses JVG of betting on the Heat based on inside info  (Read 21927 times)

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Re: Tim Donaghy accuses JVG of betting on the Heat based on inside info
« Reply #90 on: June 03, 2011, 04:41:08 PM »

Offline Chris

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finkle, just to be clear, are you complaining that they don't call travels by the book, or that they don't call them on Lebron?

Because, if you are saying they don't call them by the book, I absolutely agree.  They give players a ton of leeway, both with extra steps to the basket, footwork in the paint, and shuffling their pivot feet. 

However, I just don't think Lebron benefits from it more than most other guys.  Whether it is Pierce and Garnett, who both travel a ton, or every PG in the league who carries the ball constantly. 

Everyone, including Lebron get called every once in a while (and yes, I am frustrated by that inconsistency, but I don't feel it is biased), but for the most part, refs look the other way unless it is blatant, and although Lebron often looks like he is traveling (such as on his "crab dribble"), he really is not doing it very often based on the standards of the league on the whole.   

Re: Tim Donaghy accuses JVG of betting on the Heat based on inside info
« Reply #91 on: June 03, 2011, 05:35:31 PM »

Offline Finkelskyhook

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finkle, just to be clear, are you complaining that they don't call travels by the book, or that they don't call them on Lebron?

Because, if you are saying they don't call them by the book, I absolutely agree.  They give players a ton of leeway, both with extra steps to the basket, footwork in the paint, and shuffling their pivot feet.  

However, I just don't think Lebron benefits from it more than most other guys.  Whether it is Pierce and Garnett, who both travel a ton, or every PG in the league who carries the ball constantly.  

Everyone, including Lebron get called every once in a while (and yes, I am frustrated by that inconsistency, but I don't feel it is biased), but for the most part, refs look the other way unless it is blatant, and although Lebron often looks like he is traveling (such as on his "crab dribble"), he really is not doing it very often based on the standards of the league on the whole.  

Then lets bring the standards back to the pre-Jordan days.  

My answer to your queston is.....Both.  Pierce, Anthony, Bryant, Wade, Rose, Durant, and Howard consistently get an extra step or the pivot foot shuffle that would have always been called pre-Jordan.  They occasionally get called and have that goofy exhasperated look because they did the exact same thing the majority of the time they touch the ball...So they're rightfully confused.  Occasionally meaning every other game or so.  I don't include Garnett....Who takes an extra step quite a bit gets called a lot more than other stars.  Los Nash, Wade, (and to a lesser degree), the messiah, Rose, Rondo, Williams, Jennings, and Paul consistently carry the ball.....And virtually never get called.  

The messiah can take pretty much as many steps as he wants and he also gets called occasionally....As in maybe every 10 games or so.  He's simply too big to use the "speed of the game" excuse....Particularly when he moving his feet in one place.  It's simple physics...Physically impossible for a 6'9" 250lb man, no matter how quick and athletic, to take two steps without a dribble from above the three point line and dunk....Whether you consider the crab dribble...  It's also impossible for the best trained officials to miss the same thing every time.  

With the exception of flopping...The officials are incredibly consistent and accurate calling the rest of the league.  The reality is they're incredibly consistent with what they don't call on the above.

Chris, if they called traveling on these even guys 50% of the time we could make the case for the speed excuse and it would have some merit.  But they're too consistent, IMHO, to make the case for anything other than they're doing what they're supposed to do.  That the obvious is being ignored by both the national color guys and the officials make it obvious that the calling it they way they're supposed to.

Your post above makes my case more eloquently than I have as to why we're talking about Tim Donaghy in the first place.  He survived because he could consistently "guess" the results or worst yet, manipulate them himself in plain sight....Not because of a lack of officiating skill.  Much the contrary..Because I'll maintain that these officials are much better than the pre-Jordan officials...But it's much easier to predict a result of a game when the most talented and skilled players on the court get additional advantages outside of the rulebook.  When the officiating gets to the point that the same exact scenario can be called 3-4 different ways based on the combatants, it's easy to hide in plain sight and influence the outcome.

« Last Edit: June 03, 2011, 05:50:14 PM by Finkelskyhook »

Re: Tim Donaghy accuses JVG of betting on the Heat based on inside info
« Reply #92 on: June 03, 2011, 05:36:16 PM »

Offline ImShakHeIsShaq

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I'm not gonna talk about Donaghy but I read here that Lebron has NEVER fouled out? How in the hell is that even possible given the minutes he has played in his career? That means LeBron is the greatest defensive player ever! You gotta be kidding me, I don't care if he is the quickest man on the court at all times and his hand is glued to the ball, how is it possible in all those minutes played you have never fouled out? I know the guy is good but is he Patric Swayze (spl?) in Ghost... doesn't touch you but hits you? Is LeBron the first in history who has not fouled out who plays as much?
It takes me 3hrs to get to Miami and 1hr to get to Orlando... but I *SPIT* on their NBA teams! "Bless God and bless the (Celts)"-Lady GaGa (she said gays but she really meant Celts)

Re: Tim Donaghy accuses JVG of betting on the Heat based on inside info
« Reply #93 on: June 03, 2011, 05:47:13 PM »

Offline Finkelskyhook

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I'm not gonna talk about Donaghy but I read here that Lebron has NEVER fouled out? How in the hell is that even possible given the minutes he has played in his career? That means LeBron is the greatest defensive player ever! You gotta be kidding me, I don't care if he is the quickest man on the court at all times and his hand is glued to the ball, how is it possible in all those minutes played you have never fouled out? I know the guy is good but is he Patric Swayze (spl?) in Ghost... doesn't touch you but hits you? Is LeBron the first in history who has not fouled out who plays as much?

I don't believe Wilt ever fouled out of a game.

Re: Tim Donaghy accuses JVG of betting on the Heat based on inside info
« Reply #94 on: June 03, 2011, 05:59:14 PM »

Offline Fafnir

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LeBron has fouled out of games (only three though):

http://bkref.com/tiny/Vc0A4

Re: Tim Donaghy accuses JVG of betting on the Heat based on inside info
« Reply #95 on: June 03, 2011, 06:18:40 PM »

Offline Finkelskyhook

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LeBron has fouled out of games (only three though):

http://bkref.com/tiny/Vc0A4

Once every 2.6666 seasons.  1.8 fouls per game over 8 seasons.

LOL. 

And we're debating the credibility of NBA officiating?

I can't fathom why.

Re: Tim Donaghy accuses JVG of betting on the Heat based on inside info
« Reply #96 on: June 03, 2011, 06:29:59 PM »

Offline dark_lord

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1. "superstar calls" and "rookie calls". why do they exist? a foul is a foul, regadless of who the person is committing the foul or receiving the foul.


Just to play devils advocate, I think the labeling of "superstar calls" and "rookie calls" really puts a preconceived notion in peoples minds, which might in fact change the perception, and make people, perhaps incorrectly, prescribe a cause for the calls.

I won't argue that these calls don't happen.  They absolutely do.  However, I think I would more accurately call these are "reputation" calls.  

Calling an NBA game is incredibly hard.  It is just so incredibly fast, and the line is so fine on some of these calls, that it really is impossible for someone to always make the right call when watching them at full speed from the floor.  So, just like in many aspects of life, the refs (or their unconscious brains) use the preconcieved notions to help them make the calls.

They review a ton of film, and they know these players.  They know which ones have good footwork (and Lebron and Wade both have tremendous footwork), and who has bad footwork.  They know who is able to reach in without making contact, and who isn't.  They know who is good at establishing position for a charge, and who doesn't.

So, when it comes to make these calls, if it is not an obvious call, these biases rear their head.  But it is not because one guy is a superstar, and one guy is a rookie.  It is that one guy has shown over and over again that he can make that play cleanly, and another guy hasn't.

Obviously, it is not ideal.  We would prefer that they were always "right", but when you are working with humans, this is what you get.  Sure, some guys get the benefit of the doubt more than others, but I would argue that benefit of the doubt is earned by showing they are capable of making those plays.  

obviously people make mistakes and have preconceived notions....however, can you really, in good faith, say the nba officiating is above average? can you also say, in good faith, that it is consistent? 

BTW, "superstar"/"rookie" vs "reputation", its all basically the same thing, just a different label
What is average though? NBA refs are better than college refs.

They call some things more loosely (traveling especially on the catch), and some things tigher (NBA allows a lot less physicality especially on the outside) but overall college refs miss more calls. They miss more calls in a much slower and easier to call game.

so you think the officiating at the nba is ok and more importantly, consistent?

Re: Tim Donaghy accuses JVG of betting on the Heat based on inside info
« Reply #97 on: June 03, 2011, 06:33:29 PM »

Offline Fafnir

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so you think the officiating at the nba is ok and more importantly, consistent?
I think it is okay, but not great. And yes it is consistent within the rules they do call. (they consistently let players travel on the catch of the ball, when they hit the floor, etc..)

There are bad calls, but there are bad calls at every level.

Re: Tim Donaghy accuses JVG of betting on the Heat based on inside info
« Reply #98 on: June 03, 2011, 06:37:20 PM »

Offline dark_lord

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But the Donaghy stuff beyond that is just a joke, he's a liar desparate to get attention.

you are so quick to dismiss his reports and claims, and have even frowned upon those who believe there are conspiracy theories involved with the nba officiating.....but you exhibit similar polarized thoughts, just from the other end of the spectrum.

imo, the truth lies somewhere in the middle.  I don't necessarily believe the nba picks and chooses matchups and outcomes (although i wouldn't 100% say they don't either), but i do think there issues with the officiating....how the game is officiated, treatment of players and their "reputation", consistency, and influencing the outcome of games (whether the motive is for illegal activities or to make the game "entertaining").

Re: Tim Donaghy accuses JVG of betting on the Heat based on inside info
« Reply #99 on: June 03, 2011, 06:39:53 PM »

Offline dark_lord

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so you think the officiating at the nba is ok and more importantly, consistent?
I think it is okay, but not great. And yes it is consistent within the rules they do call. (they consistently let players travel on the catch of the ball, when they hit the floor, etc..)

There are bad calls, but there are bad calls at every level.

yikes.  i guess theres no real reason for me to continue debating then. you are pleased with the officiating and think they are consistent.  im surprised, bc even some people who think the officiating is acceptable, will acknowledge the inconsistency.

Re: Tim Donaghy accuses JVG of betting on the Heat based on inside info
« Reply #100 on: June 03, 2011, 06:49:43 PM »

Offline Steve Weinman

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LeBron has fouled out of games (only three though):

http://bkref.com/tiny/Vc0A4

Once every 2.6666 seasons.  1.8 fouls per game over 8 seasons.

LOL.  

And we're debating the credibility of NBA officiating?

I can't fathom why.

EDIT: I misused Basketball-Reference's game finder.  Don't mind me.  See Tim's correction below.

-sw
« Last Edit: June 03, 2011, 09:41:10 PM by Steve Weinman »


Reggies Ghost: Where artistic genius happens.  Thank you, sir.

Re: Tim Donaghy accuses JVG of betting on the Heat based on inside info
« Reply #101 on: June 03, 2011, 06:59:18 PM »

Offline dark_lord

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LeBron has fouled out of games (only three though):

http://bkref.com/tiny/Vc0A4

Once every 2.6666 seasons.  1.8 fouls per game over 8 seasons.

LOL. 

And we're debating the credibility of NBA officiating?

I can't fathom why.

That's two more career disqualifications than Paul Pierce has to his record.

-sw

imo, i think his 1.8 fouls per game over the course of 8 seasons is the real issue, not the fouling out (or lack thereof)

Re: Tim Donaghy accuses JVG of betting on the Heat based on inside info
« Reply #102 on: June 03, 2011, 07:50:52 PM »

Offline ImShakHeIsShaq

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Okay so he fouls 2xs a game and fouled out only 3xs with all those minutes he plays and he rarely misses a game... yep, G.O.A.T. (I mean on both sides of the floor b/c he obviously doesn't foul on either end)!
It takes me 3hrs to get to Miami and 1hr to get to Orlando... but I *SPIT* on their NBA teams! "Bless God and bless the (Celts)"-Lady GaGa (she said gays but she really meant Celts)

Re: Tim Donaghy accuses JVG of betting on the Heat based on inside info
« Reply #103 on: June 03, 2011, 08:15:21 PM »

Offline BballTim

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LeBron has fouled out of games (only three though):

http://bkref.com/tiny/Vc0A4

Once every 2.6666 seasons.  1.8 fouls per game over 8 seasons.

LOL. 

And we're debating the credibility of NBA officiating?

I can't fathom why.

That's two more career disqualifications than Paul Pierce has to his record.

-sw

  PP has fouled out of 8 games since LeBron came into the league. He had 5 or more fouls 73 times compared to 19 for LeBron.

Re: Tim Donaghy accuses JVG of betting on the Heat based on inside info
« Reply #104 on: June 03, 2011, 08:19:46 PM »

Offline barefacedmonk

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imo, the truth lies somewhere in the middle.  I don't necessarily believe the nba picks and chooses matchups and outcomes (although i wouldn't 100% say they don't either), but i do think there issues with the officiating....how the game is officiated, treatment of players and their "reputation", consistency, and influencing the outcome of games (whether the motive is for illegal activities or to make the game "entertaining").

TP.
"An ounce of practice is worth more than tons of preaching." - M.K. Gandhi