Tim Donaghy accuses JVG of betting on the Heat based on inside info

[Chris]

On a side note.



Is it against the rules for color guys to bet on games?  They can't control anything on the court.

That's what I don't get.

I am not sure why JVG is involved here.  He can bet all he wants (well, if he wants to go to vegas, etc.).

[Fafnir]

How he was able to bet on games based on star calls and the personal relationships..(Good and Bad) that officials had with players, owners, and coaches?  I'm not crazy about his accusations where they pertain to commentators....But every NBA professional commentator says literally nothing after reviewing replays multiple times??  The messiah never ever fouls out despite being the most physical player on the court.  The messiah never travels?  They unanimously say nothing??  Think they're neutral?  Wade never travels?  Watch a Bavetta-officiated game. Tell me what Donaghy says isn't spot-on accurate about how if one team gets a big lead you'll see Bavetta make ridiculous calls to bring the other team back.  What Donaghy says about NBA officials is nothing we didn't talk about before his indictment.  He's very credible when it comes to the specifics of the officiating and very accurate about the specific games in his book and how they were manipulated.
 

No he's not, people have gone back through his book and retroactively used his "rules". He'd have lost money, a lot of money if he did that.

The only games he was able to pick winners for were games he refed, many of those had insane free throw differentials for the teams he bet on or his associates bet on.

Hid ability to pick winners via any way of than his own fixing of games is a myth.

What people, Fafnir?  Any specifics?  Because I saw several of the games Donaghy is referring to in his book.  In retrospect, his retrospective is amazingly accurate.

If the NBA pundits are going to identify Donaghy as "Disgraced", perhaps in the interests of accuracy..Not to mention neutrality..They should start identifying ESPN and TNT NBA commentators as "Lebron James apologist, Miami Heat Fan...and NBA commentator Mark Jackson"  Then replace Jackson's name with any of your garden variety Stern-run NBA commentator.

Canseco's claims turned up with evidence that they were true. (increased HR rates, slugging, career arcs, size of players, etc)

Yeah....Because that paragon of virtue, grace, and integrity, (and collossal conflict of interest) George Mitchell, who strangely could find no evidence whatsoever of any current player on his own team....Or any current player in his prime having done any wrongdoing..Told us so.  Mitchell and Canseco are so, so much more credible than Donaghy.

Give me a break

I linked to several posts on truehoop. Several NBA analysts have gone back and systematically evaluated his "rules" to pick winners. They all prove to be less accurate than a monkey pulling an envelop out of a hat.

Here is another link:

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/11341/did-dick-bavetta-prop-up-weaker-teams

The previous post in this thread goes into his claims in detail. His claims are veriably false with regards to other refs.

Furthermore even his own co-conspirators don't back up his claims, they say he was bad at picking games he didn't ref. His only value to them was that he would help fix the games so they could put a large amount of money on them. They refused to take action on games that he wasn't refing, in other words Tim Donaghy couldn't make them money unless he was blowing the whistle.

[Finkelskyhook]

Somewhat related... It bothered the crap out of me that the announcers sounded disappointed that Dallas was making a run, and then finally completing one of the greatest comebacks in history.

They pick a side/story before the game and thats who they root for. Its disgusting. We might as well be watching Miami Heat commentators.C'mon Mark Jackson and Van Gundy... you're better than that!

Mike Breen isn't better than that. He's a company man all the way.

LOL...You are watching Miami Heat commentators.

TP

The previous post in this thread goes into his claims in detail. His claims are veriably false with regards to other refs.

Verifiably false from pundits and apologists...But completely obvious to anybody who objectively watches.....Whether in retrospect or in the present.

[Fafnir]

Verifiably false from pundits and apologists...But completely obvious to anybody who objectively watches.....Whether in retrospect or in the present.

No Finkle they're false by people who actually go back and look at the data we have, the spreads, the rules Donaghy claims "work", and the outcomes of the games.

But that doesn't conform to your worldview, so naturally the analysis they do can't be true. Did you even bother to read what I posted for you?

Do you really think you're more objective because you watched a few of the games mentioned (which you don't specify) than someone who rigorously went back and analyzed all the games certain refs officiated and their spreads.

Donaghy is a gambling adict, a convicted felon, and a liar why is he suddenly more credible than everyone else to you?

[Donoghus]

Somewhat related... It bothered the crap out of me that the announcers sounded disappointed that Dallas was making a run, and then finally completing one of the greatest comebacks in history.

They pick a side/story before the game and thats who they root for. Its disgusting. We might as well be watching Miami Heat commentators.C'mon Mark Jackson and Van Gundy... you're better than that!

Mike Breen isn't better than that. He's a company man all the way.

LOL...You are watching Miami Heat commentators.

TP

The previous post in this thread goes into his claims in detail. His claims are veriably false with regards to other refs.

Verifiably false from pundits and apologists...But completely obvious to anybody who objectively watches.....Whether in retrospect or in the present.

So you "objectively" watch, huh?

Seems to be that its nearly impossible to "objectively" watch anything.

[Finkelskyhook]

I agree that refereeing in the NBA is horrible, but I still don't buy the conspiracy. The refs are more inconsistent than they are biased. I remember in Game 2 or 3 of the Chicago series Lebron getting called on an offensive foul that made absolutely no sense. Yes, the superstars get preferential treatment, but I really have a hard time believing that there is an active and conscious attempt to fix the results.

And Donaghy is a moron. Yes, he's right about that flagrant/offensive, but how does that even prove anything? He takes two plays out of the game and somehow that is evidence of a huge conspiracy involving refs and JVG? The flagrant one I don't even agree with. That is the kind of move Lebron makes ALL THE TIME. It's a good athletic block attempt, but this time he made contact and got called. And honestly, that travel isn't even Lebron's most absurd travel. That would be this against the Cs.. There's also one from back when he was on the Cavs where he literally runs from the three point line without dribbling and dunks ... no call.

I know I can't do politics....But I'll quote the morons in congress...

To my good friend Fafnir on the other side of the aisle....Do you think three of the best trained officials in the world couldn't see the messiah take what? 7 steps without a drible...In that video?  How many times did the messiah change his pivot foot?

I again tormented myself watching 3 minutes in the second quarter last night.  On two plays during that time, Wade took a GIANT first step along with a second step before his first dribble hit the floor as he drove for a layup.  He also did it a third time before his in-air pass back to the messiah at the three-pt line...Where the messiah changed his pivot foot twice in direct view of two of the three officials...Before launching the 3 pointer.  Even after replays the three apologist stooges in the booth were having collective orgasms over that play without ever mentioning either obvious travel on that play.

[dark_lord]

regardless if you think there are shady things behind the scenes of the nba and its officiating, one must objectively look at officiating and see it is terrible due to favortism and inconsistency.  

A couple quick examples:

1. "superstar calls" and "rookie calls". why do they exist? a foul is a foul, regadless of who the person is committing the foul or receiving the foul.

2. "make up calls"- an observer can regularly see in any nba game that when a "bad" or "questionable" call is made on one side, there is typically a makeup call on the other end (normally a non-shooting foul).

these are just 2 quick examples.


With regards to donaghy......i believe some of what he reports is true, but don't take his word on everything.  like anything else, when there is an issue, the truth normally lies somewhere in between

[Rondo2287]

I agree that refereeing in the NBA is horrible, but I still don't buy the conspiracy. The refs are more inconsistent than they are biased. I remember in Game 2 or 3 of the Chicago series Lebron getting called on an offensive foul that made absolutely no sense. Yes, the superstars get preferential treatment, but I really have a hard time believing that there is an active and conscious attempt to fix the results.

And Donaghy is a moron. Yes, he's right about that flagrant/offensive, but how does that even prove anything? He takes two plays out of the game and somehow that is evidence of a huge conspiracy involving refs and JVG? The flagrant one I don't even agree with. That is the kind of move Lebron makes ALL THE TIME. It's a good athletic block attempt, but this time he made contact and got called. And honestly, that travel isn't even Lebron's most absurd travel. That would be this against the Cs.. There's also one from back when he was on the Cavs where he literally runs from the three point line without dribbling and dunks ... no call.

I know I can't do politics....But I'll quote the morons in congress...

To my good friend Fafnir on the other side of the aisle....Do you think three of the best trained officials in the world couldn't see the messiah take what? 7 steps without a drible...In that video?  How many times did the messiah change his pivot foot?

I again tormented myself watching 3 minutes in the second quarter last night.  On two plays during that time, Wade took a GIANT first step along with a second step before his first dribble hit the floor as he drove for a layup.  He also did it a third time before his in-air pass back to the messiah at the three-pt line...Where the messiah changed his pivot foot twice in direct view of two of the three officials...Before launching the 3 pointer.  Even after replays the three apologist stooges in the booth were having collective orgasms over that play without ever mentioning either obvious travel on that play.

I refuse to watch the series, but I will give you a TP for a good rant

[Finkelskyhook]

Somewhat related... It bothered the crap out of me that the announcers sounded disappointed that Dallas was making a run, and then finally completing one of the greatest comebacks in history.

They pick a side/story before the game and thats who they root for. Its disgusting. We might as well be watching Miami Heat commentators.C'mon Mark Jackson and Van Gundy... you're better than that!

Mike Breen isn't better than that. He's a company man all the way.

LOL...You are watching Miami Heat commentators.

TP

The previous post in this thread goes into his claims in detail. His claims are veriably false with regards to other refs.

Verifiably false from pundits and apologists...But completely obvious to anybody who objectively watches.....Whether in retrospect or in the present.

So you "objectively" watch, huh?

Seems to be that its nearly impossible to "objectively" watch anything.

You can't objectively see a travel?  A flop?  I can.  It ain't hard...And I don't have the training that the best officials in the world have.

It offends me equally that Paul Pierce gets away with an obvious travel or the upfake/offensive foul call that only he gets as it does that the messiah has his own rules.  

It's not like we're talking about debatable stuff here.  There is no player in the NBA who can travel overtly at will, charge at will,  play the physical brand of basketball, protest at will, and NEVER foul out of a game...ever...Except the messiah.  

Great post, dark_lord.

[Chris]

1. "superstar calls" and "rookie calls". why do they exist? a foul is a foul, regadless of who the person is committing the foul or receiving the foul.

Just to play devils advocate, I think the labeling of "superstar calls" and "rookie calls" really puts a preconceived notion in peoples minds, which might in fact change the perception, and make people, perhaps incorrectly, prescribe a cause for the calls.

I won't argue that these calls don't happen.  They absolutely do.  However, I think I would more accurately call these are "reputation" calls.  

Calling an NBA game is incredibly hard.  It is just so incredibly fast, and the line is so fine on some of these calls, that it really is impossible for someone to always make the right call when watching them at full speed from the floor.  So, just like in many aspects of life, the refs (or their unconscious brains) use the preconcieved notions to help them make the calls.

They review a ton of film, and they know these players.  They know which ones have good footwork (and Lebron and Wade both have tremendous footwork), and who has bad footwork.  They know who is able to reach in without making contact, and who isn't.  They know who is good at establishing position for a charge, and who doesn't.

So, when it comes to make these calls, if it is not an obvious call, these biases rear their head.  But it is not because one guy is a superstar, and one guy is a rookie.  It is that one guy has shown over and over again that he can make that play cleanly, and another guy hasn't.

Obviously, it is not ideal.  We would prefer that they were always "right", but when you are working with humans, this is what you get.  Sure, some guys get the benefit of the doubt more than others, but I would argue that benefit of the doubt is earned by showing they are capable of making those plays.  

[Mr October]

regardless if you think there are shady things behind the scenes of the nba and its officiating, one must objectively look at officiating and see it is terrible due to favortism and inconsistency.  

A couple quick examples:

1. "superstar calls" and "rookie calls". why do they exist? a foul is a foul, regadless of who the person is committing the foul or receiving the foul.

2. "make up calls"- an observer can regularly see in any nba game that when a "bad" or "questionable" call is made on one side, there is typically a makeup call on the other end (normally a non-shooting foul).

these are just 2 quick examples.


With regards to donaghy......i believe some of what he reports is true, but don't take his word on everything.  like anything else, when there is an issue, the truth normally lies somewhere in between

TP. I believe the truth is somewhere in the middle as well.

Man, I hate how Lebron is officiated. He is the best in the league. He doesn't need freedom to travel on top of the 'superstar calls' with the fouls.

[dark_lord]

1. "superstar calls" and "rookie calls". why do they exist? a foul is a foul, regadless of who the person is committing the foul or receiving the foul.

Just to play devils advocate, I think the labeling of "superstar calls" and "rookie calls" really puts a preconceived notion in peoples minds, which might in fact change the perception, and make people, perhaps incorrectly, prescribe a cause for the calls.

I won't argue that these calls don't happen.  They absolutely do.  However, I think I would more accurately call these are "reputation" calls.  

Calling an NBA game is incredibly hard.  It is just so incredibly fast, and the line is so fine on some of these calls, that it really is impossible for someone to always make the right call when watching them at full speed from the floor.  So, just like in many aspects of life, the refs (or their unconscious brains) use the preconcieved notions to help them make the calls.

They review a ton of film, and they know these players.  They know which ones have good footwork (and Lebron and Wade both have tremendous footwork), and who has bad footwork.  They know who is able to reach in without making contact, and who isn't.  They know who is good at establishing position for a charge, and who doesn't.

So, when it comes to make these calls, if it is not an obvious call, these biases rear their head.  But it is not because one guy is a superstar, and one guy is a rookie.  It is that one guy has shown over and over again that he can make that play cleanly, and another guy hasn't.

Obviously, it is not ideal.  We would prefer that they were always "right", but when you are working with humans, this is what you get.  Sure, some guys get the benefit of the doubt more than others, but I would argue that benefit of the doubt is earned by showing they are capable of making those plays.  

obviously people make mistakes and have preconceived notions....however, can you really, in good faith, say the nba officiating is above average? can you also say, in good faith, that it is consistent? 

BTW, "superstar"/"rookie" vs "reputation", its all basically the same thing, just a different label

[Fafnir]

1. "superstar calls" and "rookie calls". why do they exist? a foul is a foul, regadless of who the person is committing the foul or receiving the foul.

Just to play devils advocate, I think the labeling of "superstar calls" and "rookie calls" really puts a preconceived notion in peoples minds, which might in fact change the perception, and make people, perhaps incorrectly, prescribe a cause for the calls.

I won't argue that these calls don't happen.  They absolutely do.  However, I think I would more accurately call these are "reputation" calls.  

Calling an NBA game is incredibly hard.  It is just so incredibly fast, and the line is so fine on some of these calls, that it really is impossible for someone to always make the right call when watching them at full speed from the floor.  So, just like in many aspects of life, the refs (or their unconscious brains) use the preconcieved notions to help them make the calls.

They review a ton of film, and they know these players.  They know which ones have good footwork (and Lebron and Wade both have tremendous footwork), and who has bad footwork.  They know who is able to reach in without making contact, and who isn't.  They know who is good at establishing position for a charge, and who doesn't.

So, when it comes to make these calls, if it is not an obvious call, these biases rear their head.  But it is not because one guy is a superstar, and one guy is a rookie.  It is that one guy has shown over and over again that he can make that play cleanly, and another guy hasn't.

Obviously, it is not ideal.  We would prefer that they were always "right", but when you are working with humans, this is what you get.  Sure, some guys get the benefit of the doubt more than others, but I would argue that benefit of the doubt is earned by showing they are capable of making those plays.  

obviously people make mistakes and have preconceived notions....however, can you really, in good faith, say the nba officiating is above average? can you also say, in good faith, that it is consistent? 

BTW, "superstar"/"rookie" vs "reputation", its all basically the same thing, just a different label

What is average though? NBA refs are better than college refs.

They call some things more loosely (traveling especially on the catch), and some things tigher (NBA allows a lot less physicality especially on the outside) but overall college refs miss more calls. They miss more calls in a much slower and easier to call game.

[Fafnir]

regardless if you think there are shady things behind the scenes of the nba and its officiating, one must objectively look at officiating and see it is terrible due to favortism and inconsistency.  

A couple quick examples:

1. "superstar calls" and "rookie calls". why do they exist? a foul is a foul, regadless of who the person is committing the foul or receiving the foul.

2. "make up calls"- an observer can regularly see in any nba game that when a "bad" or "questionable" call is made on one side, there is typically a makeup call on the other end (normally a non-shooting foul).

these are just 2 quick examples.


With regards to donaghy......i believe some of what he reports is true, but don't take his word on everything.  like anything else, when there is an issue, the truth normally lies somewhere in between

TP. I believe the truth is somewhere in the middle as well.

Man, I hate how Lebron is officiated. He is the best in the league. He doesn't need freedom to travel on top of the 'superstar calls' with the fouls.

Superstar calls do exist, I think Chris outlines the reasons for them well in his post above. And announcers definitely play favorites as well.

But the Donaghy stuff beyond that is just a joke, he's a liar desparate to get attention.

[ThaPreacher]

Basketball has its Jose Canseco and I love it

Its funny Canseco was ridiculed.  He was mocked.  Indeed by the some of the same self-serving pundits who claimed he was just trying to excuse his own behavior.

I don't think you can claim that a referee who was a criminal, himself, is a trustworthy source.
His claims are to date unproven.  Watching the clips, you can see his knowledge as a referee.
But that is neither here nor there.

I find it curious that no one is talking about the drug issue in the NBA and the curious claims/ or non-claims of Derrick Rose.  

I want to remind people of this article that broke long before we accepted that baseball, the owners, managers and players
and whole industry were in the "know" of the rampant drug use in the MLB!

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1025905/index.htm

What year was Sosa/McGuire?
What year was Clemens testimony?

Perhaps Derrick Rose is the Ken Caminiti of Basketball?  Or perhaps he was misquoted.

I don't know about Tim donaghy.
I do wonder why Lebron travels and fouls so much and gets away with it.

Of course I do wonder why his head is so big also.