Does this year's playoffs show that Rondo is (at least) on par with Rose?

[CelticsFanNC]

  I for one have never said Rondo is better then Rose but I said these playoffs didn't exactly show the best of either player.

  Using MVP voting as an example of whom is better to me is a bit twisted since most of these guys voting are in the exact same media that over hypes these players so them voting for him or anyone else is in many cases a vote for their own opinions. 

  Also these media member who vote for these awards in many cases completely disregard defense or treat defense as the ugly step child of offense but anyone who actually knows the game knows that defense is a full one half of the game of basketball and there are many examples of offensive Juggernaut teams that fail miserably in the post season because defense wins game and titles.

[Vermont Green]

  Don't know what these playoffs said about Rondo because he was hurt and didn't play up to the level he has in past post seasons.

  What these playoffs said about Rose is he is yet another NBA player who has been over hyped by the media because he can score a lot of points but in reality doesn't do anything other then score to help his team win games.  I hate to compare him to Iverson because I do think he is a better p[layer then Iverson but that is exactly who he looked like.  If you need to take 30 shots to score 30 points you're just not scoring efficiently therefore you are probably hurting your team as much as you are helping it.

  The media, specifically ESPN has been over rating/over hyping scorers for twenty years.

Fans, GMs, all media outlets -- they ALL over-hype scorers.

Hype or not, Rose carried a flawed team to the best record and, on a bad ankle, to wins in two rounds of the playoffs.

I think there is a fair amount of substance to back up the hype.

[BballTim]

 They're 18th in offense. They're 30th by a wide margin in offensive rebounds. If we were an average offensive team we'd be a top 10 offense. If you ignore the effects of offensive rebounding we'd be a top 6 offense.

They're also 28th in turnovers - which is largely due to Rondo. The team was one of the slowest teams in the league too and that's on Rondo to create the pace. Those two issues are far more responsible than the offensive rebounding...considering the C's were number one in the league in field goal percentage. Why would having better offensive rebounders help if the team makes its shots anyways?

  Rondo's among the best in the league in assist/turnover ratio and doesn't have a lot of ballhandling turnovers. The turnover culprit will be elsewhere. Blaming Rondo for our pace is really nonsensical. How many times did Doc say the problem wasn't Rondo because if he pushed the ball up he'd be alone in the frontcourt? And clearly we're well farther from average in OReb than turnovers. Since the amount we're below average in rebounding means many more missed possessions than how far above average we are in turnovers I'd tend to disagree with your assessment about which one is more responsible for our offensive woes. Oh, and number 1 in the league in fg% is still only around 50%. That's quite a few rebounds to go after (or not).

The team was also in the bottom tier average in getting to the line - this is obviously not all Rondo's fault. The team in general is a jump shooting team - but Rondo definitely added to the problem because he was afraid to go to the line and isn't a good scorer. Additionally, this was a team that didn't make all that many free throws either partially because Rondo couldn't make them.

  Agree for the most part, with a "regular season" caveat. Rondo's averaged 3 fta a game during the regular season over the last 3 year and 4.7 a game in the playoffs. 5 fta a game isn't what I'd describe as "afraid to go to the line".

[BballTim]

And to pile on to the argument of GM's, Coachs, Writers opinions, Coach Krzyzewski liked Billups, Westbrook, and Rose for his team over a fully healthy and rested Rondo.  That is just one vote but a fairly well credentialled vote and a vote by someone who got to see him for a lengthy head-to-head tryout.

  By the way, should we also assume that you think the big men that coach K picked are the best bigs in the nba?

Many of the top players of the NBA didn't make themselves available for this team.  Since we are discussing PG's; Rondo coulnd't make the team despite the fact guys like Deron Williams and Chris Paul sat out.  He wasn't even competing against the very best and still didn't make it.  

  Because, again, they don't need a point guard to run their offense.

That's why he wasn't chosen. They wanted more versatile players. Players who could offer more than "set up the offense."

  On one hand Rondo does offer other things like defense and rebounding. On the other hand he didn't choose players that offer *more* than "set up the offense", he chose players that offer other things *instead of* "set up the offense". Outside shooting and iso offense come to mind. I don't think that really qualifies as more versatile.

Coach K obviously thought Rose's and Westbrook's superior athleticism was a better asset for defense and rebounding in his system, which it was. Westbrook is a better rebounder than Rondo. That's just a statistical fact.

  Again, if "obviously" means "I have no idea if this is true or not" then I'd agree with you. Westbrook's a better rebounder than Rondo during the regular season, Rondo's a better rebounder in the playoffs. It's easy to see which of the two is more important to you, I'll go with the postseason however.

[KungPoweChicken]

And to pile on to the argument of GM's, Coachs, Writers opinions, Coach Krzyzewski liked Billups, Westbrook, and Rose for his team over a fully healthy and rested Rondo.  That is just one vote but a fairly well credentialled vote and a vote by someone who got to see him for a lengthy head-to-head tryout.

  By the way, should we also assume that you think the big men that coach K picked are the best bigs in the nba?

Many of the top players of the NBA didn't make themselves available for this team.  Since we are discussing PG's; Rondo coulnd't make the team despite the fact guys like Deron Williams and Chris Paul sat out.  He wasn't even competing against the very best and still didn't make it.  

  Because, again, they don't need a point guard to run their offense.

That's why he wasn't chosen. They wanted more versatile players. Players who could offer more than "set up the offense."

  On one hand Rondo does offer other things like defense and rebounding. On the other hand he didn't choose players that offer *more* than "set up the offense", he chose players that offer other things *instead of* "set up the offense". Outside shooting and iso offense come to mind. I don't think that really qualifies as more versatile.

Coach K obviously thought Rose's and Westbrook's superior athleticism was a better asset for defense and rebounding in his system, which it was. Westbrook is a better rebounder than Rondo. That's just a statistical fact.

  Again, if "obviously" means "I have no idea if this is true or not" then I'd agree with you. Westbrook's a better rebounder than Rondo during the regular season, Rondo's a better rebounder in the playoffs. It's easy to see which of the two is more important to you, I'll go with the postseason however.

Rondo and Westbrook actually averaged the exact same amount of rebounds this postseason. The year before that, Westbrook's first playoffs, he averages more than Rondo. The idea that Rondo is a superior playoff rebounder to Westbrook simply isn't true.

[CelticsFanNC]

  Don't know what these playoffs said about Rondo because he was hurt and didn't play up to the level he has in past post seasons.

  What these playoffs said about Rose is he is yet another NBA player who has been over hyped by the media because he can score a lot of points but in reality doesn't do anything other then score to help his team win games.  I hate to compare him to Iverson because I do think he is a better p[layer then Iverson but that is exactly who he looked like.  If you need to take 30 shots to score 30 points you're just not scoring efficiently therefore you are probably hurting your team as much as you are helping it.

  The media, specifically ESPN has been over rating/over hyping scorers for twenty years.

Fans, GMs, all media outlets -- they ALL over-hype scorers.

Hype or not, Rose carried a flawed team to the best record and, on a bad ankle, to wins in two rounds of the playoffs.

I think there is a fair amount of substance to back up the hype.

  I agree that there is a fair amount of substance to Rose.  I also think he's not as good as he has been sold this past season.  The media all but handed him the MVP in January so no one should be surprised that those exact same media members voted for him.

  Comparing these two players is like comparing apples and oranges.  Yes they play the same position but that is where the similarities end.  One is a PG who look for his own shot first and foremost, passing when he cannot find his own shot.  The other is the definition of the pass first PG who looks to score only when he cannot find someone else with a better shot.  So offensively you cannot reasonably compare the two players because they play the same position but play it completely differently.  Defensively Rondo is quite a bit better IMO but Rose isn't a slouch either.

  Ask yourself this though.  Which kind of PG has historically been more successful in the only area that counts at the end of the day....winning.   Have pass first PG's been more successful or shoot first PG's when it comes to winning?  Pass first PG's traditionally have a better track record when it comes to winning and losing.

[Steve Weinman]

And to pile on to the argument of GM's, Coachs, Writers opinions, Coach Krzyzewski liked Billups, Westbrook, and Rose for his team over a fully healthy and rested Rondo.  That is just one vote but a fairly well credentialled vote and a vote by someone who got to see him for a lengthy head-to-head tryout.

  By the way, should we also assume that you think the big men that coach K picked are the best bigs in the nba?

Many of the top players of the NBA didn't make themselves available for this team.  Since we are discussing PG's; Rondo coulnd't make the team despite the fact guys like Deron Williams and Chris Paul sat out.  He wasn't even competing against the very best and still didn't make it.  

  Because, again, they don't need a point guard to run their offense.

That's why he wasn't chosen. They wanted more versatile players. Players who could offer more than "set up the offense."

  On one hand Rondo does offer other things like defense and rebounding. On the other hand he didn't choose players that offer *more* than "set up the offense", he chose players that offer other things *instead of* "set up the offense". Outside shooting and iso offense come to mind. I don't think that really qualifies as more versatile.

Coach K obviously thought Rose's and Westbrook's superior athleticism was a better asset for defense and rebounding in his system, which it was. Westbrook is a better rebounder than Rondo. That's just a statistical fact.

  Again, if "obviously" means "I have no idea if this is true or not" then I'd agree with you. Westbrook's a better rebounder than Rondo during the regular season, Rondo's a better rebounder in the playoffs. It's easy to see which of the two is more important to you, I'll go with the postseason however.

Rondo and Westbrook actually averaged the exact same amount of rebounds this postseason. The year before that, Westbrook's first playoffs, he averages more than Rondo. The idea that Rondo is a superior playoff rebounder to Westbrook simply isn't true.

I'm not looking at the figures, which I'm guessing are very close - so I don't say this as a way to bias this discussion your way or Tim's - but if we're going to get into the business of evaluating rebounding here, could we please use rebound rate?

Minutes, pace and team offensive and defensive efficacy all add a lot of noise to rebounds per game.  Rebound rate accounts for that noise.

-sw

[guava_wrench]

  Don't know what these playoffs said about Rondo because he was hurt and didn't play up to the level he has in past post seasons.

  What these playoffs said about Rose is he is yet another NBA player who has been over hyped by the media because he can score a lot of points but in reality doesn't do anything other then score to help his team win games.  I hate to compare him to Iverson because I do think he is a better p[layer then Iverson but that is exactly who he looked like.  If you need to take 30 shots to score 30 points you're just not scoring efficiently therefore you are probably hurting your team as much as you are helping it.

  The media, specifically ESPN has been over rating/over hyping scorers for twenty years.

Fans, GMs, all media outlets -- they ALL over-hype scorers.

Hype or not, Rose carried a flawed team to the best record and, on a bad ankle, to wins in two rounds of the playoffs.

I think there is a fair amount of substance to back up the hype.

I think Rose is great. I was just agreeing with the over-valuing of scoring.

[BballTim]

And to pile on to the argument of GM's, Coachs, Writers opinions, Coach Krzyzewski liked Billups, Westbrook, and Rose for his team over a fully healthy and rested Rondo.  That is just one vote but a fairly well credentialled vote and a vote by someone who got to see him for a lengthy head-to-head tryout.

  By the way, should we also assume that you think the big men that coach K picked are the best bigs in the nba?

Many of the top players of the NBA didn't make themselves available for this team.  Since we are discussing PG's; Rondo coulnd't make the team despite the fact guys like Deron Williams and Chris Paul sat out.  He wasn't even competing against the very best and still didn't make it.  

  Because, again, they don't need a point guard to run their offense.

That's why he wasn't chosen. They wanted more versatile players. Players who could offer more than "set up the offense."

  On one hand Rondo does offer other things like defense and rebounding. On the other hand he didn't choose players that offer *more* than "set up the offense", he chose players that offer other things *instead of* "set up the offense". Outside shooting and iso offense come to mind. I don't think that really qualifies as more versatile.

Coach K obviously thought Rose's and Westbrook's superior athleticism was a better asset for defense and rebounding in his system, which it was. Westbrook is a better rebounder than Rondo. That's just a statistical fact.

  Again, if "obviously" means "I have no idea if this is true or not" then I'd agree with you. Westbrook's a better rebounder than Rondo during the regular season, Rondo's a better rebounder in the playoffs. It's easy to see which of the two is more important to you, I'll go with the postseason however.

Rondo and Westbrook actually averaged the exact same amount of rebounds this postseason. The year before that, Westbrook's first playoffs, he averages more than Rondo. The idea that Rondo is a superior playoff rebounder to Westbrook simply isn't true.

  Haha. Compare their career averages, or hope that nobody figures out that Westbrook got 5 boards a game this year and Rondo was averaging 7 a game until he lost the use of one arm. The idea that Rondo is a superior playoff rebounder is, to borrow a phrase, a statistical fact.

  Just to put a point on it, if you look at players with 15 or more career playoff games, Rondo's top 5 or so all time for point guards for rebounds. He's top 10 or so all time for all guards including shooting guards. Westbrook isn't bad, but Rondo's better.

[BballTim]

I'm not looking at the figures, which I'm guessing are very close - so I don't say this as a way to bias this discussion your way or Tim's - but if we're going to get into the business of evaluating rebounding here, could we please use rebound rate?

Minutes, pace and team offensive and defensive efficacy all add a lot of noise to rebounds per game.  Rebound rate accounts for that noise.

-sw

  By rebound rate or rebounds per game Rondo's better. In fact Rondo's rebound rate was better this year in spite of the amount of time he was playing with a dislocated elbow.

[Vermont Green]

  Comparing these two players is like comparing apples and oranges.  Yes they play the same position but that is where the similarities end.  One is a PG who look for his own shot first and foremost, passing when he cannot find his own shot.  The other is the definition of the pass first PG who looks to score only when he cannot find someone else with a better shot. 

One is on a team that needs him to score in order for the team to win.  Until the Miami series, he was able to do that against everyone even though the entire defense was designed to stop him.  He could easily look to score less if on a different team.  I don't think it is something to criticize Rose for.

Rondo doesn''t "look to score" because he can't shoot.  He doesn't look to score even when ungaurded 15' from the basket.  Rondo would look to score more if he could shoot (and Doc would want him to).  Rondo is a very good passer and has a great nose for the ball.  He needs to learn to shoot though if he wants to be in the MVP discussion along with Rose in the coming years.

[BballTim]

  Comparing these two players is like comparing apples and oranges.  Yes they play the same position but that is where the similarities end.  One is a PG who look for his own shot first and foremost, passing when he cannot find his own shot.  The other is the definition of the pass first PG who looks to score only when he cannot find someone else with a better shot. 

One is on a team that needs him to score in order for the team to win.  Until the Miami series, he was able to do that against everyone even though the entire defense was designed to stop him.  He could easily look to score less if on a different team.  I don't think it is something to criticize Rose for.

Rondo doesn''t "look to score" because he can't shoot.  He doesn't look to score even when ungaurded 15' from the basket.  Rondo would look to score more if he could shoot (and Doc would want him to).  Rondo is a very good passer and has a great nose for the ball.  He needs to learn to shoot though if he wants to be in the MVP discussion along with Rose in the coming years.

  Rose could score less, but that wouldn't make him a better passer or better at running an offense. Rondo's been putting up 16-17 a game in the playoffs the last 3 years in spite of not looking for his offense. Clearly he's capable of scoring more than that if he made it a priority. I agree that he'd need to score a lot more to be in the MVP discussion (although he was at least on the fringes of it this year in spite of his late season slump). But I don't think his goal should be to be in the MVP discussions, but to help us win games.

[Celtics18]

  Comparing these two players is like comparing apples and oranges.  Yes they play the same position but that is where the similarities end.  One is a PG who look for his own shot first and foremost, passing when he cannot find his own shot.  The other is the definition of the pass first PG who looks to score only when he cannot find someone else with a better shot. 

One is on a team that needs him to score in order for the team to win.  Until the Miami series, he was able to do that against everyone even though the entire defense was designed to stop him.  He could easily look to score less if on a different team.  I don't think it is something to criticize Rose for.

Rondo doesn''t "look to score" because he can't shoot.  He doesn't look to score even when ungaurded 15' from the basket.  Rondo would look to score more if he could shoot (and Doc would want him to).  Rondo is a very good passer and has a great nose for the ball.  He needs to learn to shoot though if he wants to be in the MVP discussion along with Rose in the coming years.

Derrick Rose has a lot of talents, but being a great outside shooter isn't one of them.  He takes a lot of outside jumpers, but makes them at a lower percentage than Rondo. 

[BballTim]

One is on a team that needs him to score in order for the team to win.  Until the Miami series, he was able to do that against everyone even though the entire defense was designed to stop him.  He could easily look to score less if on a different team.  I don't think it is something to criticize Rose for.

  By the way it's worth pointing out that Rose shot 35% (23% on 3s) vs the Heat and 37% (22% on 3s) vs the Pacers. The only team he shot decently against was missing their starting point guard due to injury. The defenses didn't stop Rose but they made him a pretty inefficient scorer.

[dark_lord]

as much as i love rondo....he isnt anywhere near the same level as rose