Thunder turmoil, Rajon for Russell anyone?

[BballTim]

Westbrook seems to lack court vision.  He passes the ball well, when he actually does pass it.  Definitely not smart to keep chucking shots and not get the ball to Durant.

That said, Durant not going and getting the ball himself was dissappointing.  Durant still has a lot to learn about being the team leader and best offensive waepon.  He allows himself to be taken out of the game too easily.

  Durant's only 22. Maybe he just needs time before he's ready to be that assertive.

[KGs Knee]

Russell Westbrook's career AST% is 36.4%, Rondo's is 38%.

RW's career TOV% is 16.6%, RR's is 19.7%.

How about career totals?

RW - 17.8 p, 7.1 a, 4.8 r, 1.5 s, 3.5 t
RR - 10.7 p, 7.6 a, 4.4 r, 1.9 s, 2.5 t

Westbrook is better then Rondo right now and he is getting better at a greater rate then Rondo. 

  There are other ways to measure point guards than individual stats. For instance, the Celts score more, have a higher fg% and a higher percentage of assisted baskets with Rondo playing, the Thunder score fewer points, have a lower fg% and have fewer assisted baskets with Westbrook playing. You hear the phrase thrown around a lot for no apparent reason, but Rondo actually *does* make those around him better, Westbrook not so much.

This is exactly why I can see keeping Rondo as your team leader and a core player going forward.  He does, as you say, "make his teammates better".

Now, if he could just make himself better (FT'as at least, Rondo, please!).

[KGs Knee]

Westbrook seems to lack court vision.  He passes the ball well, when he actually does pass it.  Definitely not smart to keep chucking shots and not get the ball to Durant.

That said, Durant not going and getting the ball himself was dissappointing.  Durant still has a lot to learn about being the team leader and best offensive waepon.  He allows himself to be taken out of the game too easily.

  Durant's only 22. Maybe he just needs time before he's ready to be that assertive.

Yeah, agree with that fully.  Sometimes its easy to forget how young Durant still is.

[scaryjerry]

the thunder turmoil is based soley off of Westbrooks dumb, low basketball IQ, sloppy, shoot happy play...they get along off the court as well as any teammates

[paulcowens]

Russell Westbrook's career AST% is 36.4%, Rondo's is 38%.

RW's career TOV% is 16.6%, RR's is 19.7%.

How about career totals?

RW - 17.8 p, 7.1 a, 4.8 r, 1.5 s, 3.5 t
RR - 10.7 p, 7.6 a, 4.4 r, 1.9 s, 2.5 t

Westbrook is better then Rondo right now and he is getting better at a greater rate then Rondo. 

  There are other ways to measure point guards than individual stats. For instance, the Celts score more, have a higher fg% and a higher percentage of assisted baskets with Rondo playing, the Thunder score fewer points, have a lower fg% and have fewer assisted baskets with Westbrook playing. You hear the phrase thrown around a lot for no apparent reason, but Rondo actually *does* make those around him better, Westbrook not so much.

This is exactly why I can see keeping Rondo as your team leader and a core player going forward.  He does, as you say, "make his teammates better".

Now, if he could just make himself better (FT'as at least, Rondo, please!).

I want to see Rondo shoot the old Rick Barry diaper shot from the line - I wonder if the mechanics of it would be more natural for him?

[paulcowens]

Russell is maddening, sometimes.  He's so talented and last night, for example, he was at times the only offense OKC had.  But that's the point.  When he's on the floor, they don't seem to even run an offense, at times.

[KGs Knee]

Russell Westbrook's career AST% is 36.4%, Rondo's is 38%.

RW's career TOV% is 16.6%, RR's is 19.7%.

How about career totals?

RW - 17.8 p, 7.1 a, 4.8 r, 1.5 s, 3.5 t
RR - 10.7 p, 7.6 a, 4.4 r, 1.9 s, 2.5 t

Westbrook is better then Rondo right now and he is getting better at a greater rate then Rondo. 

  There are other ways to measure point guards than individual stats. For instance, the Celts score more, have a higher fg% and a higher percentage of assisted baskets with Rondo playing, the Thunder score fewer points, have a lower fg% and have fewer assisted baskets with Westbrook playing. You hear the phrase thrown around a lot for no apparent reason, but Rondo actually *does* make those around him better, Westbrook not so much.

This is exactly why I can see keeping Rondo as your team leader and a core player going forward.  He does, as you say, "make his teammates better".

Now, if he could just make himself better (FT'as at least, Rondo, please!).

I want to see Rondo shoot the old Rick Barry diaper shot from the line - I wonder if the mechanics of it would be more natural for him?

Long lanky arms, an innate ability to put unique spin on the ball, yeah, I could see Rondo being successful with an underhanded approach to free throws.

I would love to see it just because NBA players all seem to have too much pride to try this.  It's looked down upon as beneath them.  Ironically, while initially a player may be mocked, if successful, they would be lauded for it eventually.

[soap07]

  There are other ways to measure point guards than individual stats. For instance, the Celts score more, have a higher fg% and a higher percentage of assisted baskets with Rondo playing, the Thunder score fewer points, have a lower fg% and have fewer assisted baskets with Westbrook playing. You hear the phrase thrown around a lot for no apparent reason, but Rondo actually *does* make those around him better, Westbrook not so much.

This also has to do with the fact that Rondo has far more talent around him that Westbrook does.

If a trade revolved around Westbrook and Serge for Rondo, I might have to pull the trigger on that.

[alley oop]

I was only talking about finishing at the rim...I agree that this year he went to the basket less than most years, but I thought a lot of that had to do with injuries more than anything else.

I mean, he's not as good as Rose or Westbrook at getting to the rim, but I still think he's pretty good at full strength.

It will be interesting to see the effect a full offseason for Rondo’s body to recover from the season and playoffs will have. He didn’t give himself that last off season, when he surely needed it.

[BballTim]

  There are other ways to measure point guards than individual stats. For instance, the Celts score more, have a higher fg% and a higher percentage of assisted baskets with Rondo playing, the Thunder score fewer points, have a lower fg% and have fewer assisted baskets with Westbrook playing. You hear the phrase thrown around a lot for no apparent reason, but Rondo actually *does* make those around him better, Westbrook not so much.

This also has to do with the fact that Rondo has far more talent around him that Westbrook does.

  I wouldn't take that for granted. Stick a mediocre pg (say Delonte) on both teams. I wouldn't bet the farm on PP/RA/KG outscoring Durant/Harden/Ibaka. I probably wouldn't bet on it at all. We're talking 2011 (and/or 2012) not 2007-2008.

[snively]

Russell Westbrook's career AST% is 36.4%, Rondo's is 38%.

RW's career TOV% is 16.6%, RR's is 19.7%.

How about career totals?

RW - 17.8 p, 7.1 a, 4.8 r, 1.5 s, 3.5 t
RR - 10.7 p, 7.6 a, 4.4 r, 1.9 s, 2.5 t

Westbrook is better then Rondo right now and he is getting better at a greater rate then Rondo. 

TOV% is very misleading when comparing a shoot-first PG to a pass-first PG.  Shooting a lot increases your usage without increasing your turnover risk (common sense: you are far less likely to turn the ball over on a shot attempt than a pass attempt, almost by definition), leading to volume shooting, turnover prone guys like Westbrook scoring lower TOV%s than much steadier guys like Rondo and Kidd whose TOV%s are higher because they shoot less frequently.  Kidd's career is a good case in point.  When he shot more (and the turned the ball over more) as the main guy in Jersey, he consistently posted lower TOV%s than he does now in Dallas, where he rarely shoots and turns it over less.

As for the rest of the comparison, you conveniently left out that Westbrook's career eFG% is 43% and his TS% is 51%, both poor marks, but he still averages 15 shots a game.  Rondo's more efficient at 49%eFG and 52%TS, and does a much better job letting more efficient scorers do more of the shooting (only 9 attempts per game for him).

I like Russell Westbrook and he projects to become a more efficient scorer in the future, but Rondo is the much smarter and more effective player right now and it's not really that close.

[snively]

  There are other ways to measure point guards than individual stats. For instance, the Celts score more, have a higher fg% and a higher percentage of assisted baskets with Rondo playing, the Thunder score fewer points, have a lower fg% and have fewer assisted baskets with Westbrook playing. You hear the phrase thrown around a lot for no apparent reason, but Rondo actually *does* make those around him better, Westbrook not so much.

This also has to do with the fact that Rondo has far more talent around him that Westbrook does.

If a trade revolved around Westbrook and Serge for Rondo, I might have to pull the trigger on that.

Yeah, but that's so unrealistic.  Ibaka's a double-double guy as a starter and lead the league in blocks in only 27 minutes per game.  With Rondo and Westbrook roughly equivalent in trade value, you don't get someone of Ibaka's caliber as a throw-in.

[soap07]

Yeah, but that's so unrealistic.  Ibaka's a double-double guy as a starter and lead the league in blocks in only 27 minutes per game.  With Rondo and Westbrook roughly equivalent in trade value, you don't get someone of Ibaka's caliber as a throw-in.

Agreed. I think it was Roy who mentioned it before - a straight up trade would make both teams worse and there is no incentive for either team to throw in extra guys - and Ibaka is by no means a throw in.

TOV% is very misleading when comparing a shoot-first PG to a pass-first PG.  Shooting a lot increases your usage without increasing your turnover risk (common sense: you are far less likely to turn the ball over on a shot attempt than a pass attempt, almost by definition), leading to volume shooting, turnover prone guys like Westbrook scoring lower TOV%s than much steadier guys like Rondo and Kidd whose TOV%s are higher because they shoot less frequently.  Kidd's career is a good case in point.  When he shot more (and the turned the ball over more) as the main guy in Jersey, he consistently posted lower TOV%s than he does now in Dallas, where he rarely shoots and turns it over less.

I must say - I don't quite buy this argument. It's not like as a shoot-first point guard, Westbrook is only taking jumpers rather than passing it to get extra scoring. Creating shots for yourself, whether passing or shooting, does make you susceptible to turnovers. He's attacking the rim a decent amount, which makes him more susceptible to turnovers. While he may not pass as much as Rajon, he's still only one or two assists off while scoring a whole lot more. I think turnover rate here is definitely applicable.

For Jason Kidd, I think the correlation is between usage rate and turnover percentage, rather than shooting vs. passing. If you have a higher usage rate, you will likely have a higher turnover percentage.

Westbrook's usage rate is far higher than Rondo's and yet he still turns the ball over less, which says something. Now, I get that TO% is based on a per 100 of the individual person's play, but I still think that if you are a larger focal point of an offense, whether as a passer or scorer, you will likely turn the ball over more.

[soap07]

  I wouldn't take that for granted. Stick a mediocre pg (say Delonte) on both teams. I wouldn't bet the farm on PP/RA/KG outscoring Durant/Harden/Ibaka. I probably wouldn't bet on it at all. We're talking 2011 (and/or 2012) not 2007-2008.

We can agree to disagree here - but I absolutely think the C's trio would win quite handily.

[BballTim]

  I wouldn't take that for granted. Stick a mediocre pg (say Delonte) on both teams. I wouldn't bet the farm on PP/RA/KG outscoring Durant/Harden/Ibaka. I probably wouldn't bet on it at all. We're talking 2011 (and/or 2012) not 2007-2008.

We can agree to disagree here - but I absolutely think the C's trio would win quite handily.

  Considering both trios score about the same in spite of the C's trio playing with a pass first pg and the Thunder's group playing with a volume shooter, I'd tend to disagree with that claim.