What's up with Perk ?

[Mr October]

It's just amazing to read this stuff.  You guys are constructing a world where Danny Ainge can never be wrong, no matter how bizarre his antics are. 

What if you were in favor of trading Perk at the deadline before Ainge did it?

What PaulCowens fails to mention is what would happen if Perk stays, and you still lose with him ?  Perk guarantees nothing, and PaulCowens knows that.

If Perkins stayed and walked out the door after the season, then gets overpaid by some other team (a la OKC) and walks, then how do these posters feel about Ainge ?

How 'wrong' would Ainge be if he let that scenario happen ?

Cuts both ways.  If Ainge doesn't make the trade, and the C's lose with Perk, Boston hangs him (i.e. " you should of traded the damaged goods while you had the chance ").  If Ainge does make the trade, and they lose to the Heat as they did, Boston hangs him.

Its called a no win situation.

PaulCowens hangs him either way you look at it.

Yup, some will complain no matter the outcome. I think Ainge had to choose between 2 choices he didn't want to make:

1. Loose Perk at the end of the season, and get nothing back.

2. Trade him for some needed parts with a nice future first thrown in.

In the end Ainge probably made the right choice. The Celtics weren't going to win the title with Rondo playing with one arm anyway.

A 60% Perkins isn't enough to overcome that problem.

[greenpride32]

It's just amazing to read this stuff...... 

First off the Thunder were the 4 seed out west pre and post trade. They didn't get better after "the trade".

The team that was the top EC seed for the first half of the year included a starting lineup of Rondo, Ray, Pierce, Allen, and Shaq.  Perk was not even a bench player during this time.  In "the trade" we basically gave up a piece that was non-existent for us all year (Perk), and a player who had maybe 2 good games out of 30 before being benched (Nate).

So what really changed with this team?  Shaq could not play. And by the way we were 27-9 with Shaq playing any minutes, and 20-4 with Shaq playing 21 minutes or more.  I think he made a fairly significant impact.  

Marquis was hurt and he was the 2nd most reliable bench player behind BBD during the time.

BBD was horrible for the past 2 months or so.  His fall started after he returned from injury.  I suspect it's likely he never recovered 100%, but players never use that as an excuse.

DA built this roster; if you were riding high on this team early in the year then you loved the team Danny built.  So when guys get hurt and things aren't going so well you immediately jump off his bandwagon?

The bottom line is Perk would not have made a difference for us; I realize he brings something to the table but he is nowhere close to an impact player.

[ejk3489]

It's just amazing to read this stuff.  You guys are constructing a world where Danny Ainge can never be wrong, no matter how bizarre his antics are.  There's no question that the Celtics imploded after The Trade, while the Thunder did a lot better.  But many of you would rather believe that we 'never had a chance' against the wondrous Heat, even though for much of this last season WE looked like the team to beat for the championship.

I actually think it was a bad trade tactically for both teams. The main reason it helped OKC is because it settled their rotation. Something their coach was always able to do, he just didn't do it. Perk was more of an asset in our system, where he knew it cold, and where his D in the middle made more of an impact. I still don't think we beat the Heat if you undo the trade, and I don't think he's adding much to OKC. Had OKC run into LAL he might have been an important factor, but they didn't. The Mavs are unconventional because of Dirk and that hurts Perk.

So I think for this season (which I value more than future seasons) it was a bad trade. Yet I also agree with the premise of this thread that Perk is not all right and not that much of a factor for OKC. You are constructing a false dichotomy. It's not either-or, it can be both or neither, and shades of gray.

Well why didn't Kristic settle their rotation?  Kristic is an average center. 

I dunno - but they didn't start him. I think if they had played Kristic at Center and started Ibaka at PF they would have been better off. Maybe it was over valuing Green at PF, or undervaluing Kristic at C, or whatever - but the coach didn't do it.

I think: Kristic, Ibaka, Durant, Sefalosha, Westbrook w/ Harden, Green, and Collison would have been a better rotation - but that's not how they played. They played Ibaka, Green, Durant as starting front line.

(Also I'm not saying Perk isn't better than Kristic or is - its just irrelevant to my overall point.)

I thought Krstic was starting in OKC, with Ibaka coming off the bench usually? I don't think he started full time until the trade. Their main rotation if I remember correctly was Krstic-Green-Durant-Sefalosha-Westbrook.

[greenpride32]

Krstic started every game he played for OKC this year; 47/47.  It's difficult to have logical discussions when people don't even have the facts; and are basing their opinions on incorrect information.   

Dealing Green opened space for Ibaka to play more.  Then it was just C a for C swap with Perk and Krstic. OKC knew Green wasn't resigning so they wanted to deal him; pretty much the same as what BOS did with Perk.  Trade them or loose them for nothing.  In both cases each team had a backup player so dealing the players wasn't the end of the world.  In our case our guy was hurt. 

[bbd24]

It's just amazing to read this stuff.  You guys are constructing a world where Danny Ainge can never be wrong, no matter how bizarre his antics are.  There's no question that the Celtics imploded after The Trade, while the Thunder did a lot better.  But many of you would rather believe that we 'never had a chance' against the wondrous Heat, even though for much of this last season WE looked like the team to beat for the championship.

If you wanted to blame someone on the Thunder for their difficulties containing the front duos of the Grizzlies and the Mavericks, it would make a lot more sense to blame Ibaka.  It's Ibaka who has been unable to play effective defense on two of the most powerful and effective power forwards in the league.  But then again, no one can play defense against those guys when the referees won't LET anyone. 

I thought that there was going to be accountability for Danny if we didn't win a championship, after The Trade, at least from the fans.  But many of you have simply moved the goal posts.  You are now acting like it was never really realistic to think that we could win a championship.
Too old.  Not athletic.  Wow.  Did all that happen overnight?   Well, yes, it basically did.

Trading off Perkins hurt us on a lot of levels.  Even at half speed, Perkins anchors a defense.  As Doc FINALLY pointed out, it left us with a team that had basically been preset to preseason, as far as knowing each other was concerned.  What he chose not to point out was that it clearly torpedoed our famous 'ubuntu'.   And it killed our seeding. 

No, Perkins isn't a great center.  And now he's a hurting not-great-center.  But he DOES control the middle on defense, and he does set screens on offense, and a lot of centers DON'T EVEN DO THAT MUCH. 

And if you want to blame Perkins for Nowitski's breakout, never mind that N has been torching everyone, why not blame Chandler for Durant's 40 points?   When people want soooo badly to defend Danny, they have to clutch at straws.  Perkins elevated the Thunder.  Losing him wrecked us.  Not because he's a great player, but because he was necessary to us.

People continue to say 'if Shaq had been healthy'.  Sure.  A healthy Shaq was clearly better than Perkins.  He made our offense literally unstoppable.  When he was healthy, we were pretty much guaranteed a healthy lead in the first quarter against anyone.  But he wasn't healthy.  He was nowhere near it towards the end, and anyone who believed Danny's hype otherwise was being willfully delusional.  Trading Perkins left us with no starting center.  JO rose to the occasion.  That alone was a miracle.  Having him coming off the bench after Perk and playing like that would have been brilliant.

But what is stunning is the way everyone has gone fatalistic.  Rather than blame the obvious cause for our demise from championship frontrunners to championship onlookers, many of you choose to search desperately for other reasons.  As far as I can see, most people have been so deeply conditioned to worship authority that this is now second nature to them.  They will not question even the most obvious lies, from authority figures that are well known to lie freely (as when Danny and Doc assured us endlessly that KG was on the point of return, two years ago).

So it is with life in bizarro world.  I doubt if the Thunder will get past the Mavs.  Nowitski scoring at a 50ppg clip is just too high a mountain to climb, probably for any team other than the Heat.  But even if they do, some folks have already said that Perkins will deserve no part in the credit for such an achievement!!

Epic post. Loved it all, and agree 100%.

+1 to that...and another TP from me as well.

Loved the bolded part.

Personally, I think you should have bolded the part that reads:

" Even at half speed, Perkins anchors a defense "

Really ?  He might want to edit that out and put KG in place for Perkins.

Real talk, before KG and Coach T showed up in Boston, Kendrick was a 9th-12th guy with nothing special about him at all - for four years.

If your going to call somebody an anchor on this team, make sure KG is in the sentence.

[bbd24]

It's just amazing to read this stuff.  You guys are constructing a world where Danny Ainge can never be wrong, no matter how bizarre his antics are. 

What if you were in favor of trading Perk at the deadline before Ainge did it?

What PaulCowens fails to mention is what would happen if Perk stays, and you still lose with him ?  Perk guarantees nothing, and PaulCowens knows that.

If Perkins stayed and walked out the door after the season, then gets overpaid by some other team (a la OKC) and walks, then how do these posters feel about Ainge ?

How 'wrong' would Ainge be if he let that scenario happen ?

Cuts both ways.  If Ainge doesn't make the trade, and the C's lose with Perk, Boston hangs him (i.e. " you should of traded the damaged goods while you had the chance ").  If Ainge does make the trade, and they lose to the Heat as they did, Boston hangs him.

Its called a no win situation.

PaulCowens hangs him either way you look at it.

Yup, some will complain no matter the outcome. I think Ainge had to choose between 2 choices he didn't want to make:

1. Loose Perk at the end of the season, and get nothing back.

2. Trade him for some needed parts with a nice future first thrown in.

In the end Ainge probably made the right choice. The Celtics weren't going to win the title with Rondo playing with one arm anyway.

A 60% Perkins isn't enough to overcome that problem.

I agree.  Perkins wasn't turning into the peak years of 07-09...Not on those knees.  I think even with a 100% Perkins it wasn't going to be enough.

* Needed a healthy Shaq
* Needed a healthy Rondo
* PP was terrible at the end of games (4th Q)
* Needed Doc to stop playing my boy BBD when he started to slide late in January


Adding Perk doesn't change any of that, and you lose out to the Bulls or Heat either way.  Smart move to deal him and get something for him now.

[mostofusrsad]

Chandler didn't abuse anyone last night...let alone abuse Perkins.

Chandler: 3 points, 8 rebounds, 1-2 FTs, 0 assists, 0 steal.

Perkins: 7 points, 5 rebounds, 1-2 FTs, 2 assists, 1 steal.


And Dirk was torching everyone last night...OKC tried to defend him with several players and none of them were successful. Besides, Dirk was Ibaka's assignment...not Perkins'.

Do you remember watching KG's play last year? When he was coming back from an injury...Did he look the same as this year?

Right now, imo, Danny is the one looking like an idiot...OKC is in the WCF...Celtics are at home...doing whatever they do in their off time.

Perk has not looked great, but he was a lot better than what we wound up using as a center...
It seems to me that people are still trying to justify the trade.  Clearly it was a mistake for this season and that was all that mattered because our window has essentially closed.

[barefacedmonk]

It's just amazing to read this stuff.  You guys are constructing a world where Danny Ainge can never be wrong, no matter how bizarre his antics are.  There's no question that the Celtics imploded after The Trade, while the Thunder did a lot better.  But many of you would rather believe that we 'never had a chance' against the wondrous Heat, even though for much of this last season WE looked like the team to beat for the championship.

If you wanted to blame someone on the Thunder for their difficulties containing the front duos of the Grizzlies and the Mavericks, it would make a lot more sense to blame Ibaka.  It's Ibaka who has been unable to play effective defense on two of the most powerful and effective power forwards in the league.  But then again, no one can play defense against those guys when the referees won't LET anyone. 

I thought that there was going to be accountability for Danny if we didn't win a championship, after The Trade, at least from the fans.  But many of you have simply moved the goal posts.  You are now acting like it was never really realistic to think that we could win a championship.
Too old.  Not athletic.  Wow.  Did all that happen overnight?   Well, yes, it basically did.

Trading off Perkins hurt us on a lot of levels.  Even at half speed, Perkins anchors a defense.  As Doc FINALLY pointed out, it left us with a team that had basically been preset to preseason, as far as knowing each other was concerned.  What he chose not to point out was that it clearly torpedoed our famous 'ubuntu'.   And it killed our seeding. 

No, Perkins isn't a great center.  And now he's a hurting not-great-center.  But he DOES control the middle on defense, and he does set screens on offense, and a lot of centers DON'T EVEN DO THAT MUCH. 

And if you want to blame Perkins for Nowitski's breakout, never mind that N has been torching everyone, why not blame Chandler for Durant's 40 points?   When people want soooo badly to defend Danny, they have to clutch at straws.  Perkins elevated the Thunder.  Losing him wrecked us.  Not because he's a great player, but because he was necessary to us.

People continue to say 'if Shaq had been healthy'.  Sure.  A healthy Shaq was clearly better than Perkins.  He made our offense literally unstoppable.  When he was healthy, we were pretty much guaranteed a healthy lead in the first quarter against anyone.  But he wasn't healthy.  He was nowhere near it towards the end, and anyone who believed Danny's hype otherwise was being willfully delusional.  Trading Perkins left us with no starting center.  JO rose to the occasion.  That alone was a miracle.  Having him coming off the bench after Perk and playing like that would have been brilliant.

But what is stunning is the way everyone has gone fatalistic.  Rather than blame the obvious cause for our demise from championship frontrunners to championship onlookers, many of you choose to search desperately for other reasons.  As far as I can see, most people have been so deeply conditioned to worship authority that this is now second nature to them.  They will not question even the most obvious lies, from authority figures that are well known to lie freely (as when Danny and Doc assured us endlessly that KG was on the point of return, two years ago).

So it is with life in bizarro world.  I doubt if the Thunder will get past the Mavs.  Nowitski scoring at a 50ppg clip is just too high a mountain to climb, probably for any team other than the Heat.  But even if they do, some folks have already said that Perkins will deserve no part in the credit for such an achievement!!

+1 to that...and another TP from me as well.

Loved the bolded part.

Have another TP...the bolded part is the truth.

[jdpapa3]

BBD was pretty good with the big 4 playing at C before the trade and even closed out the 3 wins against Miami. He got big free agency eyes and was a big part of our season flaming out. Also frustrating to see in game 5 that Krstic would've been just fine if Doc had played him at backup C for the entire series.

[mostofusrsad]

BBD was pretty good with the big 4 playing at C before the trade and even closed out the 3 wins against Miami. He got big free agency eyes and was a big part of our season flaming out. Also frustrating to see in game 5 that Krstic would've been just fine if Doc had played him at backup C for the entire series.

BBD should NEVER be used against any real center in this league.  He just can't be expected to play that role on a championship team.

[LB3533]

What do you think about Perkins and his 8/9 M per/yr contract ?

Specifically, those who hated the trade for the C's, and denounced Ainge, while praising Presti in the process.  Are you still singing Sam's praises ?

285 lb + man, coming off major knee surgery, problems with both knees, comes from a team with 4 all stars around him, and your paying him that type of money for his 'role' ?

TGFD....Thank God For Danny...Get something while the getting be good #44.  Thankful he didn't let him just walk (or crawl) for nothing.

If you still feel this trade was bad for the Celtics, well, in the immortal words of Judas Priest,

" YOU'VE GOT ANOTHER THING COMIN "

I know I am so happy that the Celtics made a trade when they had the best record in the East and are now gone fishing. 




Thank you so much.  Way to blow up the starting 5 that won one title and made it to the NBA final the other time all 5 were on the court.  It was brilliant. 

I don't think Perk would have prevented the Celtics from "going fishing".  They had the best record WITHOUT Perk playing.  They didn't miss Perk, they missed Shaq.  I think the Celtics got out of JO what they would have got out of Perk anyway.

No.  Perk would add to what JO did, not replace. 


It would be Perk + JO.

Not Perk or JO.

Perk would be replacing Baby's production.

And I am not so sure how much production we would have gotten from Perk as a back (likewise from JO if he were backup).

[jdpapa3]

BBD was pretty good with the big 4 playing at C before the trade and even closed out the 3 wins against Miami. He got big free agency eyes and was a big part of our season flaming out. Also frustrating to see in game 5 that Krstic would've been just fine if Doc had played him at backup C for the entire series.

BBD should NEVER be used against any real center in this league.  He just can't be expected to play that role on a championship team.

Yet, he covered Dwight Howard for decent stretches in the previous season and we were knocking right on the door of being a championship team.

[Fafnir]

BBD was pretty good with the big 4 playing at C before the trade and even closed out the 3 wins against Miami. He got big free agency eyes and was a big part of our season flaming out. Also frustrating to see in game 5 that Krstic would've been just fine if Doc had played him at backup C for the entire series.

BBD should NEVER be used against any real center in this league.  He just can't be expected to play that role on a championship team.

Yet, he covered Dwight Howard for decent stretches in the previous season and we were knocking right on the door of being a championship team.

Yeah for the most part BBD's defense with KG in the frontcourt worked out okay. The rebounding wasn't good but it was a very good line up. BBD just hit a wall hard in the second half of this season. Especially in the playoffs, it happens to roleplayers.

[jdpapa3]

Yeah for the most part BBD's defense with KG in the frontcourt worked out okay. The rebounding wasn't good but it was a very good line up. BBD just hit a wall hard in the second half of this season. Especially in the playoffs, it happens to roleplayers.

I think Big Baby's play with the big 4 was a major checkmark in the pros column for making the trade, especially at the center position. The team had a 96 DRtg with that lineup in 500 minutes of data in the regular season. I just don't know that you can project a mid 20s guy to all of a sudden fall so hard with no obvious reason.

[BballTim]

It's just amazing to read this stuff.  You guys are constructing a world where Danny Ainge can never be wrong, no matter how bizarre his antics are.  There's no question that the Celtics imploded after The Trade, while the Thunder did a lot better.  But many of you would rather believe that we 'never had a chance' against the wondrous Heat, even though for much of this last season WE looked like the team to beat for the championship.

If you wanted to blame someone on the Thunder for their difficulties containing the front duos of the Grizzlies and the Mavericks, it would make a lot more sense to blame Ibaka.  It's Ibaka who has been unable to play effective defense on two of the most powerful and effective power forwards in the league.  But then again, no one can play defense against those guys when the referees won't LET anyone. 

I thought that there was going to be accountability for Danny if we didn't win a championship, after The Trade, at least from the fans.  But many of you have simply moved the goal posts.  You are now acting like it was never really realistic to think that we could win a championship.
Too old.  Not athletic.  Wow.  Did all that happen overnight?   Well, yes, it basically did.

  Rondo's injury killed our title chances. Having Perk here wouldn't have remedied that.

Trading off Perkins hurt us on a lot of levels.  Even at half speed, Perkins anchors a defense.  As Doc FINALLY pointed out, it left us with a team that had basically been preset to preseason, as far as knowing each other was concerned.  What he chose not to point out was that it clearly torpedoed our famous 'ubuntu'.   And it killed our seeding. 

  If we hadn't made the trade we'd have lost our seeding in any case because we'd have been shorthanded and injured in Feb/March.