2011 CB Historical Draft - Draft Thread

[indeedproceed]

I think you severely underestimate Kevin Durant's defensive capabilities as he had a PER against of 12.0 when playing against SF's and 13.9 while playing against PFs.

Well, lets be honest here. Moranis tapped the hyperbolic well when the said Durant was 'well below average defensively', but Durant is far from proficient when you're talking about guarding the 3's here. In the real NBA (and keep those numbers if you luck into that #2 draft pick this summer) to say Durant is a liability defensively against anyone but the upper tier offensive SF's in the NBA is a lie, but against a lot of the SF's in this game, he's not going to hold them back much.

He's a touch slower than the quick guys and weaker than the strong guys. He will play the role you gave him well, but he's not going to make a significant defensive impact for you here.

[indeedproceed]

You know what I think a good analogy for a draft like this is? Its like one of those 'Magic Eye' pictures.

Sometimes, you see the sailboat, plain as day. Sometimes, you don't. Sometimes, there just isn't a sailboat.

But if someone isn't buying what you're selling, or not seeing your sailboat, don't get down, and don't get discouraged. Try and help them see if you think you can. If you can't, you can't. Its your team, and at the end of the day you ought to build it the way you want.

And to show I'm just an awesome guy, I won't even post the youtube clip. I will let someone else make that joke.

[KCattheStripe]

You know what I think a good analogy for a draft like this is? Its like one of those 'Magic Eye' pictures.

Sometimes, you see the sailboat, plain as day. Sometimes, you don't. Sometimes, there just isn't a sailboat.

But if someone isn't buying what you're selling, or not seeing your sailboat, don't get down, and don't get discouraged. Try and help them see if you think you can. If you can't, you can't. Its your team, and at the end of the day you ought to build it the way you want.

And to show I'm just an awesome guy, I won't even post the youtube clip. I will let someone else make that joke.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDoC8BhtUyo&feature=related

[indeedproceed]

You know what I think a good analogy for a draft like this is? Its like one of those 'Magic Eye' pictures.

Sometimes, you see the sailboat, plain as day. Sometimes, you don't. Sometimes, there just isn't a sailboat.

But if someone isn't buying what you're selling, or not seeing your sailboat, don't get down, and don't get discouraged. Try and help them see if you think you can. If you can't, you can't. Its your team, and at the end of the day you ought to build it the way you want.

And to show I'm just an awesome guy, I won't even post the youtube clip. I will let someone else make that joke.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDoC8BhtUyo&feature=related

You're welcome.

[KCattheStripe]

You know what I think a good analogy for a draft like this is? Its like one of those 'Magic Eye' pictures.

Sometimes, you see the sailboat, plain as day. Sometimes, you don't. Sometimes, there just isn't a sailboat.

But if someone isn't buying what you're selling, or not seeing your sailboat, don't get down, and don't get discouraged. Try and help them see if you think you can. If you can't, you can't. Its your team, and at the end of the day you ought to build it the way you want.

And to show I'm just an awesome guy, I won't even post the youtube clip. I will let someone else make that joke.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDoC8BhtUyo&feature=related

You're welcome.

As long as you don't welcome me into some place small and uncomfortable.

[KCattheStripe]

Completely off topic, but I love this scene/movie. Parental Discretion is advised.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vHLJfxfXHBg&feature=related

[GreenFaith1819]

Biggest problem I see with the Lakers is shooting.

Worthy, Rondo, Payton, Garnett are all less than average (for their position) 3pt shooters, so I guess the biggest worry I have with the lakers is that they're going to have a smaller court, as it were.

Dumars and Majerle are both more than able shooters, but Domars is the only one seeing real time.

On a real NBA team, this wouldn't be an issue. A real NBA team though wouldn't have to contend with dominating players at every position on the other side tough. Lets say Big Game James is matching up against a Shawn Marion. Marion can sag off him when Worthy doesn't have the ball, because he's good enough, long enough, and fast enough to get back on Worthy if he is going to shoot it, and Worthy is only a 30% shooter, and if Worthy's not going to shoot it, Marion can still defend him without allowing him into the paint.

Meanwhile, while Marion is playing off the ball, he's taking him passing lanes and space that Payton and Rondo need to get their guys the ball, and driving lanes they'd need to use to get to the basket.

Its a crappy place to focus on a team that is so talented athletically and physically, but I don't think it should be overlooked, as every weakness that cannot be addressed is going to be a focal point in a league where none of the teams should have any chinks in their armor.

I think, though, that in a theoretical match between Shawn Marion and James Worthy, Worthy would still exploit that one.

I think we all tend to forget here on CBlog that while Worthy was not a deep shooter, he was a very good mid-range shooter.

And Prime Worthy vs Prime Shawn? I know that James would eat his lunch. Prime Shawn was just not as defensive-minded then as he is now. And Prime Worthy was a fine passer for a SF, too.

I vividly remember Worthy burying many mid-range J's vs our own Celtics back in the day.

In such a matchup, James would bury those same mid-range shots vs even Shawn Marion, especially if he gave him space, as you stated. He had a very quick release.

James Worthy also had a solid post-up game, when needed. He exploited that option in battles vs Bird sometimes, too.

He would get the ball on the block, face Bird, head-fake, take a few dribbles and then he'd be at the basket doing one of those crazy Tomahawk dunks of his.

He was one of the quickest players I've ever seen.

While (Prime) Shawn Marion was a decent defender, he just didn't have the paper (Awards?) to warrant what you stated as far as his effect on James Worthy or my Laker team, IP.

I mean - Prime Marion with PHX? PHX just wasn't known for Defense, and they still aren't.

As you stated in your last post - I guess we all see things different...all I know is that while I was in my teen yrs riding that yellow bus to school I had to endure those Laker fans bragging about how James Worthy was dogging our Celtics.

And looking back 20 yrs later - they were right - especially as our team aged.

[Edgar]

You know what I think a good analogy for a draft like this is? Its like one of those 'Magic Eye' pictures.

Sometimes, you see the sailboat, plain as day. Sometimes, you don't. Sometimes, there just isn't a sailboat.

But if someone isn't buying what you're selling, or not seeing your sailboat, don't get down, and don't get discouraged. Try and help them see if you think you can. If you can't, you can't. Its your team, and at the end of the day you ought to build it the way you want.

And to show I'm just an awesome guy, I won't even post the youtube clip. I will let someone else make that joke.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDoC8BhtUyo&feature=related

You're welcome.

As long as you don't welcome me into some place small and uncomfortable.

the back seat of a ..lol

[indeedproceed]

While (Prime) Shawn Marion was a decent defender, he just didn't have the paper (Awards?) to warrant what you stated as far as his effect on James Worthy or my Laker team, IP.

Shawn Marion didn't win the DPOY (which, BTW, has gone to non-big man only twice in the last 23 years), but he always got votes. Not winning the award doesn't mean you're not the best at your position. Heck, not getting NBA All-defensive team doesn't necessarily mean that.

Marion was one of the lone tenacious defenders on a team that was not a defensively oriented team. I don't need to know whether or not he was an elite defender based on awards he did or didn't get..the guy was an elite defender, and could match up at the 2,3,4.

It took KG until 2008 to win his first DPOY award, but are you going to say he wasn't arguably the best defender in the league in 2003 because he didn't win it?

There is another guy (yet undrafted, and who probably ought to remain so) who never got NBA first team defense, and only got second team twice, but he was roundly regarded as if not the most sound swingman defenders in the league, than one of the top two for years. Awards don't mean much, especially if you have seen the guy play.

[GreenFaith1819]

While (Prime) Shawn Marion was a decent defender, he just didn't have the paper (Awards?) to warrant what you stated as far as his effect on James Worthy or my Laker team, IP.

Shawn Marion didn't win the DPOY (which, BTW, has gone to non-big man only twice in the last 23 years), but he always got votes. Not winning the award doesn't mean you're not the best at your position. Heck, not getting NBA All-defensive team doesn't necessarily mean that.

Marion was one of the lone tenacious defenders on a team that was not a defensively oriented team. I don't need to know whether or not he was an elite defender based on awards he did or didn't get..the guy was an elite defender, and could match up at the 2,3,4.

It took KG until 2008 to win his first DPOY award, but are you going to say he wasn't arguably the best defender in the league in 2003 because he didn't win it?

But - KG had several 1st or 2nd team NBA Defense awards prior to him winning the Defensive Player of the year in Boston.

He had paper.

One thing I've noted here on CBlog is how posters reference sources, and from what I've seen Shawn Marion just doesn't warrant the defensive credit that you state - even though I'm not doubting that he was a decent one.

But not enough to warrant negating Prime Worthy, as you say. If you want the best Defensive Shawn, I'd go with 10-11, and by then James Worthy is just too quick.

[indeedproceed]

If you want the best Defensive Shawn, I'd go with 10-11, and by then James Worthy is just too quick.

Ah, well I guess that's where the rubber meets the road. This version of Shawn Marion, while still effective, is no where near the athletic dynamo that Marion was earlier in his career, and I believe that version was the defender I contend he was.

[Fafnir]

If you want the best Defensive Shawn, I'd go with 10-11, and by then James Worthy is just too quick.

Ah, well I guess that's where the rubber meets the road. This version of Shawn Marion, while still effective, is no where near the athletic dynamo that Marion was earlier in his career, and I believe that version was the defender I contend he was.

Marion was a much better defender in his younger years overall. He would frequently guard Kobe Bryant, LeBron James, Elton Brand, etc...

All on an up tempo team where he played a ton of minutes, his excellent and versatile skill set allowed those phoenix teams to be competitive defensively.

He might be a better one on one SF defender now due to superior discipline. But he can no longer guard as many positions and is no longer the disruptive help defender he once was. Overall he's a lesser defensive force now, and in this setting he's going to need every bit of his athleticism to compete.

[Who]

Shawn Marion is a very good defender today but he is nowhere near the defender he was 5-6 years ago.

It's not even close. I can't believe that point is even being debated.

-----------------------------------

Marion is one of the finest defensive small forward's + rebounding small forwards in this draft (also one of the weaker offensive players).

Given the current starters at his position, I have him ranked as the third best defensive starting SF (behind Pippen and LeBron).

There are also two top defenders off the bench (Rodman, B.Jones) ... which makes Marion a top 5 defender out of the 22 small forwards already taken.

** Havlicek would have also featured here but he was moved to the SG position.

-----------------------------------------

In terms of Worthy, Marion is one of the most capable defenders to throw at him.

What you want with Worthy is either an undersized SF who Worthy can beat up in the post or a slow PF who he can beat with his quickness and agility in the post / drives (where Worthy was his most lethal, like Marion, as an undersized PF).

Unfortunately for Worthy, Marion was a combo forward who had the strength to defend most PFs and the elite quickness to defend any and all perimeter positions at an All-League level.

Marion will most definitely slow James Worthy down. He won't shut him down but he will slow him down. Marion will also provide great defense as a team defender playing off of Worthy's so-so jump shot.

[Moranis]

I think success in this particular draft relies upon balance of talent, versatility of talent and chemistry of talent both individually and team wise. I think the best teams will be made up of greatest players that excelled in every asset of the game. The well rounded player that is elite in some aspects of the game and great in most others while being a player that makes others better and exemplifies team play.

Teams that are going to be made up of players that are say elite scorers but not the best passers or defensive players won't succeed here. teams made up of defensive players that rebound but are poor offensively, not as athletic or not the best passers won't succeed here. Teams made up of a PG with supreme passing skills but lacking elsewhere, SGs that are amazing 3 point shooters but lacking elsewhere, SFs that are unreal athletic slashers that can play defense but are lacking elsewhere, PFs that can rebound better than anyone and have amazing post games but lacking elsewhere and centers that are huge and can not be stopped down low but are lacking elsewhere, just won't work here.

The individual players have to have many supreme skills as well as be versatile and have the mentality to be a team player. The team makeup has to be one of players that are proven winners that can do it all, have played amazingly with other stars and will mesh and perform on both ends of the court.

That's just my opinion but its what I built my team around and what I think succeeds in this particular draft format. Its why I think that the Bulls are one of the best teams here. We can be the best offensive team here on any given night and when we have to be. We can be the best defensive team here on any given night and when we want to be. Combined, I think that makes this team one of the best.

I'm not sure your team actually does what you think it does as you have a lot of players that are deficient in a number of areas.  Rodman is terrible offensively, Durant is well below average defensively.  Maravich wouldn't know defense if it bit him on the butt.  Willis Reed isn't exactly an offensive force and was a pretty poor passer.  DJ isn't exactly a well rounded offensive player (pretty poor shooter and only an average at best passer).  Sure Magic and Walton hit what you want, but most of your team does not. 

I think you severely underestimate the offensive game of Willis Reed, a 18.7 PPG for his career scorer and a player who scored over 20 PPG for 5 straight years while having a FG% around 50% for those 5 years.

I think you severely underestimate Kevin Durant's defensive capabilities as he had a PER against of 12.0 when playing against SF's and 13.9 while playing against PFs.

DJ was a excellent passer and his three point shooting was poor but his mid range game was excellent. His all around offensive game was excellent he just was a great team player that didn't look for his offense but took what the defense gave him. One of the smartest players ever.

I admit that Maravich and Rodman are specialists. Rodman defensive, maravich offensive, though he could do it all offensively, but as it stands they will be used as specialists with the other 7 players being the main rotation for now.

Walton
Gasol
Reed
Magic
West
Durant
Johnson

That's seven players that fit what I am describing. I mean I wasn't saying you draft 13 Michael Jordans. You can't. Every player will have something lacking somewhere, sometimes in more than one place. But overall, well rounded and elite in most aspects of the game individually as player and as team players.

I know you are supporting your team, but you are severely overestimating the overall ability of your guys.  They are not who you say they are. 

[Moranis]

Since I will be out the rest of the day, I'm going to make my selection now.

Looking to add some size and doing so with one of the few remaining 20/10 centers, the Memphis Grizzlies select

C - Brad Daugherty