2011 CB Historical Draft - Draft Thread

[Moranis]

Thoughts on the Hakeem/Cowens/Pippen frontline?

Absolutely love it. 

I was hoping to grab Cowens next to play the PF position too.

I think Cowens was picked way too early.  Very solid career, but no really dominate seasons.  Even the MVP year he was just a 20 point scorer on 45% (and even the 16 boards doesn't really set him apart).  He isn't a great jump shooter so he won't compliment the Dream very well and Pippen isn't exactly a scorer nor shooter either.  So in addition to being early, I'm not sure he is a good fit for the team in place.  

[Fafnir]

Thoughts on the Hakeem/Cowens/Pippen frontline?

Absolutely love it. 

I was hoping to grab Cowens next to play the PF position too.

I think Cowens was picked way too early.  Very solid career, but no really dominate seasons.  Even the MVP year he was just a 20 point scorer on 45% (and even the 16 boards doesn't really set him apart).  He isn't a great jump shooter so he won't compliment the Dream very well and Pippen isn't exactly a scorer nor shooter either.  So in addition to being early, I'm not sure he is a good fit for the team in place.  

A Celtic picked too early! 

I am shocked! I think I agree with you, though so much of this game is about argument/fit/percieved value. Cowens was likely gone soon so if you want him you need to reach.

[KCattheStripe]

Thoughts on the Hakeem/Cowens/Pippen frontline?

Absolutely love it. 

I was hoping to grab Cowens next to play the PF position too.

I think Cowens was picked way too early.  Very solid career, but no really dominate seasons.  Even the MVP year he was just a 20 point scorer on 45% (and even the 16 boards doesn't really set him apart).  He isn't a great jump shooter so he won't compliment the Dream very well and Pippen isn't exactly a scorer nor shooter either.  So in addition to being early, I'm not sure he is a good fit for the team in place.  

Actually Cowens was a very good jump shooter, and dominance is not only shown on the offensive end.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nr_Crr_LMQA&feature=related


Start at 3:17

[Bahku]

So can you show me stats that prove otherwise as far as DWest?

He's a career 37% shooter from 3pt land?

and .317 for his career is far from terrible. I think it's safe to say he could shoot the ball.

It's pretty bad. If he shot 31.7% from long range in one season today, he would be the 36th best 3pt shooting point guard, and 126th best 3pt shooting player, among those who qualified (shot more than 55 total 3PT attempts)

Look, I feel like we're really getting stuck on a minor point here. Gary Payton, great point guard, great defender, great pick.

Semantics, I guess ... I wouldn't call him a "terrible" 3-point shooter, in fact .317 is in the top 25% of the NBA, (there are approx. 332 active players now who shoot below that), so it's easily "above average". Aside from that, GP had skills that were much stronger, and I feel it was a decent pick at that slot, and a compliment to GF's core. To each his own ... that's what it's all about anyway, having fun.

[Moranis]

Thoughts on the Hakeem/Cowens/Pippen frontline?

Absolutely love it. 

I was hoping to grab Cowens next to play the PF position too.

I think Cowens was picked way too early.  Very solid career, but no really dominate seasons.  Even the MVP year he was just a 20 point scorer on 45% (and even the 16 boards doesn't really set him apart).  He isn't a great jump shooter so he won't compliment the Dream very well and Pippen isn't exactly a scorer nor shooter either.  So in addition to being early, I'm not sure he is a good fit for the team in place.  

A Celtic picked too early! 

I am shocked! I think I agree with you, though so much of this game is about argument/fit/percieved value. Cowens was likely gone soon so if you want him you need to reach.

Yeah I know, but McAdoo, who I took, would have been a much better fit with that team.  A much better scorer with a very strong perimeter game at the PF position.  Cowens is a better defender, but not all that much and with the Dream and Pippen already on the front-line he could have taken the slightly lesser defender.  Of course that would mean a Laker over a Celtic, which is a sin on this board (though it is McAdoo's Buffalo seasons that were his best).

[mgent]

In 2000-2001 GP shot the tres at .375 ... that's not too shabby, (Reggie Miller and Ray Allen each had five seasons when they shot the three at a worse percentage, and .317 for his career is far from terrible. I think it's safe to say he could shoot the ball.

That was his best single season ever, and .317 is actually closer to terrible than decent. Especially when you shoot nearly three a game.

Fafnir - No - it wasn't his single best season, ever.

I thought for the purposes of the Draft here, we get to pick a season, only. And I'm leaning towards 95-96 or 97-98.

He didn't shoot 317% in those seasons.

You can agree .317 doesn't make you a good shooter though.  You and IP are arguing over if he's a good shooter or a bad shooter, when he's really neither.  You obviously can't compare him to Delonte because he's a really good shooter, but he's not DWade bad.  He was at least a decent shooter overall (more than respectable enough for defenses not to leave him open) and barely average from 3pt range.

Absolutely nothing to brag about, but you can't say it was really a weakness that had a huge affect on his game.

[GreenFaith1819]

In 2000-2001 GP shot the tres at .375 ... that's not too shabby, (Reggie Miller and Ray Allen each had five seasons when they shot the three at a worse percentage, and .317 for his career is far from terrible. I think it's safe to say he could shoot the ball.

That was his best single season ever, and .317 is actually closer to terrible than decent. Especially when you shoot nearly three a game.

Fafnir - No - it wasn't his single best season, ever.
I thought for the purposes of the Draft here, we get to pick a season, only. And I'm leaning towards 95-96 or 97-98.

He didn't shoot 317% in those seasons.

It was his best three point shooting season, which is what we were are talking about.

The two seasons you're talking about are .328 and .338 which of course is very different from shooting from .317. So different that it adds up to 3 more threes one year and 8 more made threes the other. (299 attempts in 95-96 and 397 in 97-98)

Talk about cognative dissonance if you're really trying to talk yourself in circles that Gary Payton is a shooter.

Faf - He's an adequate enough shooter for this team. He doesn't need to be great. Can't cheat off of him, especially with who I am going to surround him with.

[Moranis]

Thoughts on the Hakeem/Cowens/Pippen frontline?

Absolutely love it. 

I was hoping to grab Cowens next to play the PF position too.

I think Cowens was picked way too early.  Very solid career, but no really dominate seasons.  Even the MVP year he was just a 20 point scorer on 45% (and even the 16 boards doesn't really set him apart).  He isn't a great jump shooter so he won't compliment the Dream very well and Pippen isn't exactly a scorer nor shooter either.  So in addition to being early, I'm not sure he is a good fit for the team in place.  

Actually Cowens was a very good jump shooter, and dominance is not only shown on the offensive end.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nr_Crr_LMQA&feature=related


Start at 3:17

Cowens is a career 46% shooter and was never over 50% and that includes dunks, layups, etc.  He hit the occassional outside shot, but Cowens was a mediocre at best outside shooter.

He also was All Defense 1st team just one time and 2nd team just 2 times.  Which certainly makes him an above average defender, but he was far from an elite level defender.  Given the team already had two of the all time best defenders at their respective positions, he should have picked up a much better offensive player then Dave Cowens. 

[KCattheStripe]

Thoughts on the Hakeem/Cowens/Pippen frontline?

Absolutely love it. 

I was hoping to grab Cowens next to play the PF position too.

I think Cowens was picked way too early.  Very solid career, but no really dominate seasons.  Even the MVP year he was just a 20 point scorer on 45% (and even the 16 boards doesn't really set him apart).  He isn't a great jump shooter so he won't compliment the Dream very well and Pippen isn't exactly a scorer nor shooter either.  So in addition to being early, I'm not sure he is a good fit for the team in place.  

A Celtic picked too early! 

I am shocked! I think I agree with you, though so much of this game is about argument/fit/percieved value. Cowens was likely gone soon so if you want him you need to reach.

Yeah I know, but McAdoo, who I took, would have been a much better fit with that team.  A much better scorer with a very strong perimeter game at the PF position.  Cowens is a better defender, but not all that much and with the Dream and Pippen already on the front-line he could have taken the slightly lesser defender.  Of course that would mean a Laker over a Celtic, which is a sin on this board (though it is McAdoo's Buffalo seasons that were his best).

I disagree, when we're talking about a team of all time greats, I'll take the superior defender and teammate everytime. Unless I'm assuming Magic Johnson is already taken and draft Hakeem Olajuwon.

[mgent]

In 2000-2001 GP shot the tres at .375 ... that's not too shabby, (Reggie Miller and Ray Allen each had five seasons when they shot the three at a worse percentage, and .317 for his career is far from terrible. I think it's safe to say he could shoot the ball.

That was his best single season ever, and .317 is actually closer to terrible than decent. Especially when you shoot nearly three a game.

Fafnir - No - it wasn't his single best season, ever.
I thought for the purposes of the Draft here, we get to pick a season, only. And I'm leaning towards 95-96 or 97-98.

He didn't shoot 317% in those seasons.

It was his best three point shooting season, which is what we were are talking about.

The two seasons you're talking about are .328 and .338 which of course is very different from shooting from .317. So different that it adds up to 3 more threes one year and 8 more made threes the other. (299 attempts in 95-96 and 397 in 97-98)

Talk about cognative dissonance if you're really trying to talk yourself in circles that Gary Payton is a shooter.

He's an adequate enough shooter for this team. He doesn't need to be great. Can't cheat off of him, especially with who I am going to surround him with.

I think this is how you meant to reply to IP.  He's not bad enough that anyone should be pointing it out and so it doesn't hurt your team, but in the NBA there's a HUGE different between a not-bad shooter and a good shooter.

[mgent]

Thoughts on the Hakeem/Cowens/Pippen frontline?

Absolutely love it. 

I was hoping to grab Cowens next to play the PF position too.

I think Cowens was picked way too early.  Very solid career, but no really dominate seasons.  Even the MVP year he was just a 20 point scorer on 45% (and even the 16 boards doesn't really set him apart).  He isn't a great jump shooter so he won't compliment the Dream very well and Pippen isn't exactly a scorer nor shooter either.  So in addition to being early, I'm not sure he is a good fit for the team in place.  

A Celtic picked too early! 

I am shocked! I think I agree with you, though so much of this game is about argument/fit/percieved value. Cowens was likely gone soon so if you want him you need to reach.

Yeah I know, but McAdoo, who I took, would have been a much better fit with that team.  A much better scorer with a very strong perimeter game at the PF position.  Cowens is a better defender, but not all that much and with the Dream and Pippen already on the front-line he could have taken the slightly lesser defender.  Of course that would mean a Laker over a Celtic, which is a sin on this board (though it is McAdoo's Buffalo seasons that were his best).

I disagree, when we're talking about a team of all time greats, I'll take the superior defender and teammate everytime. Unless I'm assuming Magic Johnson is already taken and draft Hakeem Olajuwon.

But with so many all-time greats being superior defensive and offensive players, your team is probably the weakest scoring-wise despite only being one of the best defensive teams.  Not a big deal considering there are millions of scorers left, and actually not a bad strategy either considering there are a lot more elite scorers than defenders.

[KCattheStripe]

Thoughts on the Hakeem/Cowens/Pippen frontline?

Absolutely love it. 

I was hoping to grab Cowens next to play the PF position too.

I think Cowens was picked way too early.  Very solid career, but no really dominate seasons.  Even the MVP year he was just a 20 point scorer on 45% (and even the 16 boards doesn't really set him apart).  He isn't a great jump shooter so he won't compliment the Dream very well and Pippen isn't exactly a scorer nor shooter either.  So in addition to being early, I'm not sure he is a good fit for the team in place.  

Actually Cowens was a very good jump shooter, and dominance is not only shown on the offensive end.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nr_Crr_LMQA&feature=related


Start at 3:17

Cowens is a career 46% shooter and was never over 50% and that includes dunks, layups, etc.  He hit the occassional outside shot, but Cowens was a mediocre at best outside shooter.

He also was All Defense 1st team just one time and 2nd team just 2 times.  Which certainly makes him an above average defender, but he was far from an elite level defender.  Given the team already had two of the all time best defenders at their respective positions, he should have picked up a much better offensive player then Dave Cowens. 

More on Cowen's outside shooting: http://www.hoophall.com/hall-of-famers/tag/david-w-dave-cowens

I'd say if he did it often enough for his Hall of Fame profile to say he "Roamed the outside" and he shot 46% that he shot a fair amount. Also, remember how fast those teams played, Cowens as the third option offensively was getting up 1350-1600 shots in his prime, the same numbers KG as the main offensive weapon in Minny took. So Cowens was shooting a lot of jumpers in transition.

As for his defense, I'm not playing Cowens at the 5-- which is what robbed him of All NBA defense in his era-- I'm playing him at the 4 which he'll excel at.  Also remember that I only have to pick one of those years. I don't need to care about the rest of them.

[KCattheStripe]

Thoughts on the Hakeem/Cowens/Pippen frontline?

Absolutely love it. 

I was hoping to grab Cowens next to play the PF position too.

I think Cowens was picked way too early.  Very solid career, but no really dominate seasons.  Even the MVP year he was just a 20 point scorer on 45% (and even the 16 boards doesn't really set him apart).  He isn't a great jump shooter so he won't compliment the Dream very well and Pippen isn't exactly a scorer nor shooter either.  So in addition to being early, I'm not sure he is a good fit for the team in place.  

A Celtic picked too early! 

I am shocked! I think I agree with you, though so much of this game is about argument/fit/percieved value. Cowens was likely gone soon so if you want him you need to reach.

Yeah I know, but McAdoo, who I took, would have been a much better fit with that team.  A much better scorer with a very strong perimeter game at the PF position.  Cowens is a better defender, but not all that much and with the Dream and Pippen already on the front-line he could have taken the slightly lesser defender.  Of course that would mean a Laker over a Celtic, which is a sin on this board (though it is McAdoo's Buffalo seasons that were his best).

I disagree, when we're talking about a team of all time greats, I'll take the superior defender and teammate everytime. Unless I'm assuming Magic Johnson is already taken and draft Hakeem Olajuwon.

But with so many all-time greats being superior defensive and offensive players, your team is probably the weakest scoring-wise despite only being one of the best defensive teams.  Not a big deal considering there are millions of scorers left, and actually not a bad strategy either considering there are a lot more elite scorers than defenders.

Now he's catching on!

[mgent]

Who wants the 3rd pick tomorrow?  Will move back or even out of the 4th round for a sweet package.

[GreenFaith1819]

So can you show me stats that prove otherwise as far as DWest?

He's a career 37% shooter from 3pt land?

and .317 for his career is far from terrible. I think it's safe to say he could shoot the ball.

It's pretty bad. If he shot 31.7% from long range in one season today, he would be the 36th best 3pt shooting point guard, and 126th best 3pt shooting player, among those who qualified (shot more than 55 total 3PT attempts)

Look, I feel like we're really getting stuck on a minor point here. Gary Payton, great point guard, great defender, great pick.

Semantics, I guess ... I wouldn't call him a "terrible" 3-point shooter, in fact .317 is in the top 25% of the NBA, (there are approx. 332 active players now who shoot below that), so it's easily "above average". Aside from that, GP had skills that were much stronger, and I feel it was a decent pick at that slot, and a compliment to GF's core. To each his own ... that's what it's all about anyway, having fun.

And I'm having a BLAST, Bahku! This is an interesting game. I've never researched Non-Celtics this much - ever.

Even though I still have a few C's on my radar