Mia dictating lineups

[droopdog7]

Much has been made on this board about the lack of playing time for JO.  But it seems to me, that the biggest reason for this is mia playing their small lineup (with lebron at the 4). Doc feels like he has to match up or KG/Baby would be guarding lebron.  JO isn't an offensive threat so having him on the floor is fairly useless.

So I ask, do we have any viable options against mia's small lineup?  Should we put KG on lebron?  Should we put KG in their other SF?  Would this be better or worse?

Thoughts?

[Chris]

This is the benefit of having a 6'9" 280lb guy who plays like a guard, and can successfully guard SG, SF, and PFs.  The C's (and most every team in the league) just don't have any big men quick enough to guard him on the perimeter, which pretty much forces you to match up with them.

Unfortunately, I don't think there is a great answer for it.  The way to beat it is to match up on them on defense as best you can (which the C's have done by putting KG/JO at center, and either Green or Pierce at PF), and then just try to execute better than them on a relatively even playing field. 

This is the toughest part of the last game.  The C's can match up with the Heat, no matter how they play.  They can go small if the Heat go small, or go big if the Heat go big.  However, if they fail to execute, the Heat just take advantage of mistakes better than any team in the league. 

[tgreanier]

I am not so sure JO is not an offensive threat. In general, I may agree, but in this series - and in game four especially - his ability to score inside has been better than I expected. I would love to see Doc "pull a KG" with JO. Make JO and KG post options and use them..a lot. Like KG said, we are all in here.

I do not see any way Miami loses this series - and that's not pessimistic whining, it is just reality - but I am all in too for a fight. While I feel Boston is just unable to win three in a row against a healthy Miami team, I would love to see them push them to the brink. It is entirely possible this is the last run for this group, so I would sure like to see another game or two like game three.

[Spilling Green Dye]

And this has always bothered me about Doc.  He feels he has to try to match up with the opposing lineup, instead of forcing the other team into a move.

Shaq should have played in the 2nd half.  There's no-one on the Heat who can adequately defend him. 

When the Heat go small they still don't run the ball unless the Celtics turn it over.  Why not go to a lineup of Shaq/KG/Green/Ray/Delonte against Miami's small ball??  Ray & Delonte would get more open shots, Delonte could post up his man on the block, and defensively we'd be covered. 

The thought of Glen Davis on Lebron makes me sick   

[LB3533]

I am pretty sure that in Games 1 and 2 of this series, Doc stayed big and we lost both games to the Heat.

You are [dang]ed if you do and [dang]ed if you don't.

Green at the 4 is the best way to defend the small lineup.

And no, do not switch KG on to Lebron....that cost us the game last night with the Bosh tip in...we had no big guys at all in the paint.

[MBunge]

So I ask, do we have any viable options against mia's small lineup?  Should we put KG on lebron?  Should we put KG in their other SF?  Would this be better or worse?

The answer to this is almost painfully simple.

Put JO on the Heat's center (likely Bosh).
Keep Pierce on LeBron.
Put KG on the small forward (likely Jones or Miller).

Now, that lineup is not without problems.  The biggest ones being KG needing to stay with his man at the 3 point line and JO being careful not to help off Bosh too much.  The advantages are better rebounding and giving Boston at least 1 and maybe 3 mismatches on the offensive end.

If Miller were playing lights out or Jones were capable of doing more than shooting 3s, I can understand why Doc would be hesitant to put KG on them.  But with Miller barely a factor and Jones a standstill shooter, there's no excuse for Doc not at least trying this.  All he has to do is leave his starting unit on the floor!

Mike

[Chris]

So I ask, do we have any viable options against mia's small lineup?  Should we put KG on lebron?  Should we put KG in their other SF?  Would this be better or worse?

The answer to this is almost painfully simple.

Put JO on the Heat's center (likely Bosh).
Keep Pierce on LeBron.
Put KG on the small forward (likely Jones or Miller).

This is the lineup that led to James Jones scoring 25 points in game 1.  KG is too integral to the help defense to have him stick on a shooter like Jones.  It forces KG to choose between giving help on Wade and James, or staying closer to Jones, and basically being made a non-factor defensively.

It is a no-win proposition going big when the Heat go small. 

The fact is, the C's did a tremendous job of stopping the Heat when they went small the last couple of games.  Yes, it hurt them a bit on the boards, but that is the lesser of two evils over giving up wide open shots, which is what happens when you don't match up with them. 

[Who]

Garnett (Bosh) - Green (SF) - Pierce (LeBron) - Ray/Delonte (Wade) - Rondo (PG)

I believe that is the Celtics best defensive lineup from an individual standpoint against Miami's small ball lineups. Their most effective man-to-man defensive matchups and very good team D too.

The Celtics are well able to put an extra big man on the floor against that lineup though. If they so wish. Garnett's quickness, length and defensive versatility makes him a terrific option against smaller lineups and he is fully capable of checking a stand still shooter like James Jones effectively. That will give you more length and interior team defense on the floor.

I like keeping Garnett on Bosh though. Jermaine isn't quick enough to check Bosh one-on-one which may or may not matter depending on how aggressive Bosh is on the night (not an issue for most of this series). Plus it puts him in much better position to provide help defense.

And I think C's help defense is far more effective than Miami's small ball lineup's help defense because of the advantage of Garnett over Bosh as the defensive anchor. I think Boston can exploit Miami's interior D + pick and roll D (the help D away from ball action) + transition D with this lineup.

[MBunge]

I am pretty sure that in Games 1 and 2 of this series, Doc stayed big and we lost both games to the Heat.

You are [dang]ed if you do and [dang]ed if you don't.

Green at the 4 is the best way to defend the small lineup.

And no, do not switch KG on to Lebron....that cost us the game last night with the Bosh tip in...we had no big guys at all in the paint.

In the 4th quarter of Game 1, JO came in with 5:07 left in the 4th quarter and was taken out with 3:28 left.  The only scoring Miami did in the 1:39 was 2 free throws by LeBron, 2 free throws by Wade and a 20 foot jumper by LeBron.

In the 4th quarter of game 2, Jermaine came in with 5:56 left in the 4th and was taken out with 3:02 left.  In that 2:54 seconds, Boston outscored Miami 8 to 4.

In both games, Boston was behind when JO came in for the 4th quarter and still behind when he left.  But considering that JO has probably been the best Celtic big for the whole series and that Doc played JO 28 minutes in game 4 after only playing him 21, 19 and 22 minutes in the first 3 contests, I think we can safely say that Doc is simply choosing NOT to play JO.

Mike

[droopdog7]

I am pretty sure that in Games 1 and 2 of this series, Doc stayed big and we lost both games to the Heat.

You are [dang]ed if you do and [dang]ed if you don't.

Green at the 4 is the best way to defend the small lineup.

And no, do not switch KG on to Lebron....that cost us the game last night with the Bosh tip in...we had no big guys at all in the paint.

To be fair, the only reason to have KG guarding lebron would be to keep JO on the court.  So that would be the answer to keeping bosh off the glass.

[MBunge]

This is the lineup that led to James Jones scoring 25 points in game 1.  KG is too integral to the help defense to have him stick on a shooter like Jones.  It forces KG to choose between giving help on Wade and James, or staying closer to Jones, and basically being made a non-factor defensively.

It is a no-win proposition going big when the Heat go small. 

When Jones made his 4 threes in the 2nd quarter of game 1, Jermaine wasn't even on the court.  I really don't think it was being big that let Jones score.  It was playing crappy defense.

And being afraid of what the other team is going to do is not and never has been a winning basketball strategy.

Mike

[Who]

This is the lineup that led to James Jones scoring 25 points in game 1.  KG is too integral to the help defense to have him stick on a shooter like Jones.  It forces KG to choose between giving help on Wade and James, or staying closer to Jones, and basically being made a non-factor defensively.

It is a no-win proposition going big when the Heat go small. 

When Jones made his 4 threes in the 2nd quarter of game 1, Jermaine wasn't even on the court.  I really don't think it was being big that let Jones score.  It was playing crappy defense.

And being afraid of what the other team is going to do is not and never has been a winning basketball strategy.

Mike

Garnett was only on James Jones for one of those four three pointers.

I think Jones ran him through a screen or two, lost KG, got open and drilled a three. It was the final three of his four makes, I think.

I think it was Glen Davis who was on the big man instead of KG.

[MBunge]

This is the lineup that led to James Jones scoring 25 points in game 1.  KG is too integral to the help defense to have him stick on a shooter like Jones.  It forces KG to choose between giving help on Wade and James, or staying closer to Jones, and basically being made a non-factor defensively.

It is a no-win proposition going big when the Heat go small. 

When Jones made his 4 threes in the 2nd quarter of game 1, Jermaine wasn't even on the court.  I really don't think it was being big that let Jones score.  It was playing crappy defense.

And being afraid of what the other team is going to do is not and never has been a winning basketball strategy.

Mike

Garnett was only on James Jones for one of those four three pointers.

I think Jones ran him through a screen or two, lost KG, got open and drilled a three. It was the final three of his four makes, I think.

I think it was Glen Davis who was on the big man instead of KG.

That's the point.  Jones went berserk in game 1 because of plain old bad defense.  Maybe going big wouldn't work but we don't know because Doc has willfully refused to try it.

Mike

[FatjohnReturns]

The best Celtic lineup is the one with Rondo on the bench.

West on Wade
Ray on Bibby
Pierce on Lebron
Garnett on Bosh
Jermaine on Anthony

It takes Ray off Wade but keeps him on the floor for offense. West is our best defender vs Wade so play him with the starters. Doc will never make adjustments, Rondo could tear the ligaments in his other elbow in practice and Doc would still play him 38 minutes in game 5. Sorry to say its over.

[droopdog7]

The best Celtic lineup is the one with Rondo on the bench.

West on Wade
Ray on Bibby
Pierce on Lebron
Garnett on Bosh
Jermaine on Anthony

It takes Ray off Wade but keeps him on the floor for offense. West is our best defender vs Wade so play him with the starters. Doc will never make adjustments, Rondo could tear the ligaments in his other elbow in practice and Doc would still play him 38 minutes in game 5. Sorry to say its over.

Ans when anthony is replaced by a wing (which incidentally is the point of this thread)?