Poll

Should the Celtics rebuild after this year?

Yes
39 (42.4%)
No
53 (57.6%)

Total Members Voted: 91

Author Topic: Blow it up?  (Read 27198 times)

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Re: Blow it up?
« Reply #60 on: May 10, 2011, 02:54:02 AM »

Offline PosImpos

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"Rebuilding" isn't a one season process, and it's not something done in a single summer. Danny is a very smart guy, and he's been preparing for the loss of the older guys already.

Shaq has already said he's retiring after next season, and he may even do it sooner, as the amount he can contribute has been painfully exposed this year.

KG, Paul and Ray can still play extremely well, and regaining their chemistry would be a difficult thing.

I think the attention area is mainly the bench and a "true" Center ... with those positions strengthened, we can still easily contend with the Big Three.

As for the future beyond that, rest assured management is already planning for it.

The only way this group could still contend would be if they could keep the Big 3 and make a trade this summer that would net them a point guard with scoring and playmaking ability as well as a center who can score inside and carry the offensive load.

An example would be if somehow you could trade Rondo for Devin Harris and Al Jefferson.  

I'm not saying there's any chance of that happening, but that's the sort of thing that would need to happen for the Celtics with the Big 3 to be contenders next year.  We need young players who can shoulder a bigger part of the offensive load and give us an inside presence.


We can still be a pretty good team next season.

Pretty good as in 45-50 wins and a 4th or 5th seed in the East?  Sure, probably.

Pretty good as in winning more than one playoff series?  No, probably not.  It wouldn't shock me if they got upset in the first round next year if they didn't make any major changes in the off-season.
Who are we going to get in the off season that's going to magically make us a top seed again? We need to draft some young talent if there is any in this weak draft.

Nobody.  We are not going to magically get anybody in this off-season that will make us a top seed again.  There's no way we could get somebody in this weak draft who'd be worth what we'd have to give up to get him.

Hence, time to explore any and all options to begin rebuilding now.  Sign and trade Big Baby and explore all possibilities of Rondo + Clippers pick + Jeff Green.  There's a slim chance, I'd imagine, that we could convince the Hornets to give us CP3 for that package (assuming CP3 would extend with us).  

If not, there might be some team with a promising young big man who'd trade him for Rondo and pieces (would be awesome if we could swindle the Kings out of DeMarcus Cousins -- or maybe we could convince the Pistons to give us Stuckey and Monroe).

Play Bradley a LOT next year as the first guard off the bench, even if he's having trouble.  Need to develop him and see if we're going to get anything out of him.  

After next year, once Ray and KG retire, begin rebuilding the roster with young role-players on short contracts, aiming to draft high.
Never forget the Champs of '08, or the gutsy warriors of '10.

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Re: Blow it up?
« Reply #61 on: May 10, 2011, 02:54:12 AM »

Offline chambers

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I would hope that with a shortened season next year we could ride the current core roster until Ray and KG are out of contracts and resign them at MLE.
Eg: when Howard comes on the market, we go after him + some other beef whilst keeping green and delonte for off the bench.
Davis can walk and so can the other useless guys.

Imagine if we could get Dwight in the middle with the big four.
If we could get our hands on him with an eye for building the future with Rondo- we could use the older guys as role players and I think they'd gladly stay with us even if they came off the bench- You'd have a second unit that has played together for years with experience.

"We are lucky we have a very patient GM that isn't willing to settle for being good and coming close. He wants to win a championship and we have the potential to get there still with our roster and assets."

quoting 'Greg B' on RealGM after 2017 trade deadline.
Read that last line again. One more time.

Re: Blow it up?
« Reply #62 on: May 10, 2011, 03:00:47 AM »

Offline PosImpos

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I would hope that with a shortened season next year we could ride the current core roster until Ray and KG are out of contracts and resign them at MLE.
Eg: when Howard comes on the market, we go after him + some other beef whilst keeping green and delonte for off the bench.
Davis can walk and so can the other useless guys.

Imagine if we could get Dwight in the middle with the big four.
If we could get our hands on him with an eye for building the future with Rondo- we could use the older guys as role players and I think they'd gladly stay with us even if they came off the bench- You'd have a second unit that has played together for years with experience.



None of the Big 3 are likely to be interested in playing reserve roles.  They've all had long, Hall of Fame level careers, and they've each won a ring.  They'll retire before they come off the bench, I imagine.

Sounds like Orlando is going to have a Melo-esque situation with Dwight next year, and all that I've heard suggests he's only interested in going to L.A. or Brooklyn.  If he's smart, he'll go to Brooklyn.  Best arena in the league once it's finished, and he'll get to play with one of the top 3 point guards in the league for years to come.

I think the best chance the Celtics have to stay relevant by trade is acquiring Chris Paul, but even that's unlikely.
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Re: Blow it up?
« Reply #63 on: May 10, 2011, 03:01:19 AM »

Offline barefacedmonk

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KG is going to play out his contract...he isn't coming back after that. Retirement beckons.
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Re: Blow it up?
« Reply #64 on: May 10, 2011, 03:02:11 AM »

Offline PosImpos

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KG is going to play out his contract...he isn't coming back after that. Retirement beckons.

KG looked pretty ready to retire tonight.  Had a really great game Friday night, but it seems as though he expended enough energy for two games.
Never forget the Champs of '08, or the gutsy warriors of '10.

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Re: Blow it up?
« Reply #65 on: May 10, 2011, 03:06:23 AM »

Offline KGDunks

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KG is going to play out his contract...he isn't coming back after that. Retirement beckons.

KG looked pretty ready to retire tonight.  Had a really great game Friday night, but it seems as though he expended enough energy for two games.
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Re: Blow it up?
« Reply #66 on: May 10, 2011, 03:07:47 AM »

Offline RJ87

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If we do decide blow it up, I do hope we keep Rondo. Yes, he has limitations, but PG's with his court vision, passing ability, and willingness to pass are becoming a dying breed in this league.

I've always felt that if we could put an athletic team around Rondo - one that can get out on the break and finish at the rim, we'd be a great team.

Obviously, whoever we get to go in the backcourt with Rondo would have to be a shooter. With this, I've been wanting to go after OJ Mayo for some time. There's still a possibility he'd be available this offseason - so see if you can pry him away from Memphis with BBD (in a sign and trade) + that clippers 1st. The core would then be Rondo/Mayo/Green... Then see if we could get a young center in 2012 (I believe McGee, Hickson, and Hibbert are all restricted FA's that summer).

As far D12 goes, I've resigned myself to the idea that he's going to LA or NJ.
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Re: Blow it up?
« Reply #67 on: May 10, 2011, 03:18:59 AM »

Offline PosImpos

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If we do decide blow it up, I do hope we keep Rondo. Yes, he has limitations, but PG's with his court vision, passing ability, and willingness to pass are becoming a dying breed in this league.

I've always felt that if we could put an athletic team around Rondo - one that can get out on the break and finish at the rim, we'd be a great team.

Obviously, whoever we get to go in the backcourt with Rondo would have to be a shooter. With this, I've been wanting to go after OJ Mayo for some time. There's still a possibility he'd be available this offseason - so see if you can pry him away from Memphis with BBD (in a sign and trade) + that clippers 1st. The core would then be Rondo/Mayo/Green... Then see if we could get a young center in 2012 (I believe McGee, Hickson, and Hibbert are all restricted FA's that summer).

As far D12 goes, I've resigned myself to the idea that he's going to LA or NJ.

Why would Memphis go for BBD when they have Darrel Arthur, who is taller, more athletic, and just better in every way?

Also, the idea of building around Rondo by surrounding him with quick athletic types is nice, but there's a few problems I see with that idea.

First, at the end of the day, you can't have an offense that runs entirely on fast break points.  Especially in the playoffs, you need to be able to score in the half-court set.  To that end, you'd have to surround Rondo with fast, athletic players who can finish in transition AND shoot well.  Those sorts of players are not easy to come by (especially ones who can also defend). 

That's not enough, either.  Since you're talking about building around a point guard who can realistically only score 10 points per game, maybe as high as 15 with less efficiency, you'd need at least 3 other guys who can score 15+ a night in order to have a healthy offense.  Three guys who can score 15+, shoot, run and finish in transition, who can also defend well?  Tough to come by. 

Not to mention the fact that there hasn't been a team built around a point guard that's won a championship since Isiah's Pistons.  I'm not sure if there's ever been a team built around a point guard who can't shoot.  In any case, as I just explained, because of Rondo's inability to score, building around him would entail surrounding him with enough talent that you wouldn't any longer be building AROUND Rondo so much as building with him as one of the core pieces.

That's a fine enough strategy, I suppose -- a team with Rondo as its 3rd or 4th best player could definitely be a title contender.  The problem is, Rondo is good enough to keep a team of young athletic players without a ton of offensive ability (think Philly) just barely in playoff contention.  So the chances of getting high enough draft picks to eventually get real stars to put around Rondo wouldn't seem great.


This doesn't even begin to get into the issues of building around a player who is as maddeningly inconsistent as Rondo is.  Building around a player who can be MVP-like for 10 games and then hardly earn his starting spot for another 10 seems like a pretty poor decision to me.
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Re: Blow it up?
« Reply #68 on: May 10, 2011, 09:05:50 AM »

Online Roy H.

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No.  I have very little desire to lose 55+ games again.

But you'd rather win 45-55 and get beaten in the 2nd round again?

I guess I can appreciate where you're coming from, but to me any season that puts us farther away from being a contender instead of bringing us closer to being one is a waste of a season.

There's no trophy for making the playoffs or winning a single series, and you can't build a championship contender with late first round picks.

First, at least in the short term, the Celtics have as much of a chance of winning as anybody else.  Despite being decimated by injuries and getting no contribution from their sixth man, they've been competitive with Miami in just about every game.  There may be a gap between Miami and Boston, but it's not a wide one.  I'd hate to see us rebuild next year, and then have Miami stumble due to an injury to one of their stars.  Right now, we're still one of the top five teams in the NBA.

Second, rebuilding usually doesn't work.  The Bulls tried it, and it took them over a decade to be relevant again.  Even after the Celtics original Big Three moved on, the team didn't see success for almost two decades, and that was after two rebuilding efforts.  There are a ton of teams who are stuck in rebuilding right now, and I guarantee that just about every one of them would prefer to switch places with the Celts.

If we blow the team up, we'll be lucky to be a competitive team again within five seasons, and even in that scenario it's likely that a second round playoff loss would be seen as a success.  That being the case, I'd prefer to keep our team together, and hope to catch lightning in a bottle.  Simply put, being in the lottery is overrated.


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Re: Blow it up?
« Reply #69 on: May 10, 2011, 09:18:48 AM »

Offline housecall

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No.  I have very little desire to lose 55+ games again.
TP,That says it all.

Re: Blow it up?
« Reply #70 on: May 10, 2011, 09:23:04 AM »

Offline BballTim

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No.  I have very little desire to lose 55+ games again.

But you'd rather win 45-55 and get beaten in the 2nd round again?

I guess I can appreciate where you're coming from, but to me any season that puts us farther away from being a contender instead of bringing us closer to being one is a waste of a season.

There's no trophy for making the playoffs or winning a single series, and you can't build a championship contender with late first round picks.


  Becoming a crappy team doesn't put you closer to being a contender. You're implying that teams like Minny, Sacramento, Toronto and Golden State are closer to being contenders than Portland or Atlanta. I don't see this as true.

  Even if you feel that we have no hope of ever beating the Heat, how would you feel about things if we broke things up and won 33 games next year, Chicago fizzled in the playoffs and LeBron gets injured? Would you be thankful that we're "closer to contending" than looking at a relatively easy path to the finals?

Re: Blow it up?
« Reply #71 on: May 10, 2011, 09:23:25 AM »

Offline Shamrocker

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No.  I have very little desire to lose 55+ games again.
TP,That says it all.

True, but I rather lose 55 games and get the #3 pick, then win 50 and get bounced in the second round.

Re: Blow it up?
« Reply #72 on: May 10, 2011, 09:25:33 AM »

Online Moranis

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If you present me with a good option (that actually could fly), I would consider...unfortunately, I do not see it happening...
I posted this in another thread about a week ago

Quote
My three part rebuilding idea, none of which will probably happen, but I think these are all fairly realistic trades that could happen (or something similar anyway)

Trade 1
Boston gets - Rudy Gay, Marcus Camby
Memphis gets - Wesley Matthews
Portland gets - Kevin Garnett, Avery Bradley

Trade 2
Boston gets - Chris Paul
New Orleans gets - Rajon Rondo, Jermaine O'Neal (or other filler), LAC #1, 2012 Bos #1

Trade 3
Boston gets Andris Biedrins, Martell Webster
Golden State gets - Darko Milicic
Minnesota gets - Ray Allen, Shaquille O'Neal (in for dollars)

New Boston lineup
PG - Chris Paul, Delonte West
SG - Delonte West, Martell Webster, FREE AGENT
SF - Paul Pierce, Rudy Gay, Jeff Green, Martell Webster
PF - Rudy Gay, Jeff Green, Glen Davis
C - Marcus Camby, Andris Biedrins, Nenad Krstic

Gets us a fairly young core (Gay, Paul, Green, Biedrins, and Webster all in the mid-20's) and with Gay, Paul would have a legitimate star to share the load with over the next decade (or so), which hopefully is enough to get him to sign that long term extension.  It does take us out of the Dwight Howard sweepstakes, but I don't think he is coming here anyway.

Overall I still think that is the path to go down and explore.  It gives enough roster flexibility that the C's can match-up well with most teams i.e. starting Camby and Biedrins against teams with formidable bigmen, going small and fast with Davis, Green, and Gay all playing together on the frontline, etc.  It leaves SG a bit weak and we could use another PF/C (Though Shaq/JO may be bought out and could be brought back if that happens), but I think that would be a step in the right direction to getting this team back to title contention without dropping off the face of the planet.
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Re: Blow it up?
« Reply #73 on: May 10, 2011, 09:31:40 AM »

Offline FatjohnReturns

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Whats needed is two changes. First a new coach prefreably McHale,Sloan,Van Gundy.  Second whatever we can get for a trade package of Rondo and Big Baby. I would focus a young big like Deandre Jordan. Delonte and Carlos would be fine holding down the point. Then make another run next year.

Re: Blow it up?
« Reply #74 on: May 10, 2011, 09:32:54 AM »

Offline PosImpos

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No.  I have very little desire to lose 55+ games again.

But you'd rather win 45-55 and get beaten in the 2nd round again?

I guess I can appreciate where you're coming from, but to me any season that puts us farther away from being a contender instead of bringing us closer to being one is a waste of a season.

There's no trophy for making the playoffs or winning a single series, and you can't build a championship contender with late first round picks.

First, at least in the short term, the Celtics have as much of a chance of winning as anybody else.  Despite being decimated by injuries and getting no contribution from their sixth man, they've been competitive with Miami in just about every game.  There may be a gap between Miami and Boston, but it's not a wide one.  I'd hate to see us rebuild next year, and then have Miami stumble due to an injury to one of their stars.  Right now, we're still one of the top five teams in the NBA.

Second, rebuilding usually doesn't work.  The Bulls tried it, and it took them over a decade to be relevant again.  Even after the Celtics original Big Three moved on, the team didn't see success for almost two decades, and that was after two rebuilding efforts.  There are a ton of teams who are stuck in rebuilding right now, and I guarantee that just about every one of them would prefer to switch places with the Celts.

If we blow the team up, we'll be lucky to be a competitive team again within five seasons, and even in that scenario it's likely that a second round playoff loss would be seen as a success.  That being the case, I'd prefer to keep our team together, and hope to catch lightning in a bottle.  Simply put, being in the lottery is overrated.

I respect that attitude, but as I said before, I disagree.  I agree that rebuilding is a crap shoot and it takes a lot of luck to "win" the lottery ('win' meaning getting an above average player).  However, it's the only system the team has to work with, and the system necessitates that you get a lot worse before you can realistically get better.

I disagree that there's a realistic chance for this group to win another title.  The options for improving the team really at all this summer are extremely limited outside of some unseen wild trade (which would constitute blowing the team up to some degree).  As currently constituted, this group is too old to sustain a playoff run against the younger and steadily more talented contenders in the East.  They aren't going to have a better seed next year than last; without any productive young role players there won't be any kind of Spursian Renaissance here.  

Basically, I believe the writing is on the wall.  I think if there's interest in having 1 or 2, maybe even 3 more 40-50 win seasons and a fighting chance at winning a playoff series, then keeping this group together could accomplish that.  But that's all that's going to be accomplished.  I realize that winning a playoff series may seem like a big deal a couple years down the road once rebuilding is well underway.  Still, winning a single playoff series doesn't particularly excite me; even wins against higher seeds led by players I hate will be fleeting.  Honestly, nobody remembers the 5th seed that knocked off the 4th seed and took the 1 seed to 6 games.  

In light of that, any season that brings us further away from a title instead of closer to one is a waste, in my opinion.  The only way to get closer to a title instead of drifting further away from one is to start rebuilding.  This group has had it's time, and now that time has passed.



No.  I have very little desire to lose 55+ games again.

But you'd rather win 45-55 and get beaten in the 2nd round again?

I guess I can appreciate where you're coming from, but to me any season that puts us farther away from being a contender instead of bringing us closer to being one is a waste of a season.

There's no trophy for making the playoffs or winning a single series, and you can't build a championship contender with late first round picks.


  Becoming a crappy team doesn't put you closer to being a contender. You're implying that teams like Minny, Sacramento, Toronto and Golden State are closer to being contenders than Portland or Atlanta. I don't see this as true.

  Even if you feel that we have no hope of ever beating the Heat, how would you feel about things if we broke things up and won 33 games next year, Chicago fizzled in the playoffs and LeBron gets injured? Would you be thankful that we're "closer to contending" than looking at a relatively easy path to the finals?



No, I'm not implying what you said I implied.  Portland and Atlanta are young; there are still moves they can make to shift the make-up of their team and contend.  They aren't a whole lot closer to winning a title than Sactown and Golden State, but they are.  However, I would say at this point that Golden State and Sactown are probably closer to winning a title than the Celtics.  Becoming a crappy team does make you closer to a title if you are a young crappy team filled with players that have potential and there are draft picks stockpiled. 

One thing you can be pretty sure of is that the Celtics will not be as poorly managed as the Warriors, T-Wolves, Raptors, and Kings have been these past few years.  The Celtics also have a lot more money than those teams.  You can be assured that the Celtics rebuilding process should be considerably less painful.


The scenario you detailed is extremely unlikely, but even if it were to happen, I imagine that there will be at least one or two other teams in the East that will be in a better position next year (e.g. the Hawks will probably have surpassed us).  There's also the West.  I don't see the Thunder, Grizzlies, Mavs, Blazers etc. all suffering some major injuries and posing no threat. 

Unless next season is roughly 20-30 games long, just long enough to get warmed up for the playoffs and not long enough for anybody to get hurt / tired, the Celtics aren't going to be in the running for anything more than a 2nd round exit, or maybe a trip to the eastern conference finals if others teams face terrible luck.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2011, 09:44:32 AM by PosImpos »
Never forget the Champs of '08, or the gutsy warriors of '10.

"I know you all wanna win, but you gotta do it TOGETHER!"
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