Political correctness on CelticsBlog...

[ScoobyDoo]

Hi FnFair, women are generally tougher than men both mentally and physically - if you don't believe that, try growing up in a house full of them. Trust me, you're not going to win - anything. But you'll learn a lot about life, that's for sure, and you'll be a better person because of it.

They are emotionally tougher than we are as well because they allow themselves to be vulnerable far more often than men, who often times hide before all sorts of things before allowing our emotions to show. I apologize if I've offended any men by saying I think women are tougher than us in almost every way. I said it because I believe it. It's only my opinion, and everyone is entitled to their own opinion on this. Please don't take this as an indictment against or for men or women.

Most of the women I know would be laughing at the ridiculousness of this conversation and the only they might be offended by is that the world at large thinks they need to be protected from a bunch of words. Maybe it's just the women I run with, but if women don't like something you've said, you're going to know about it pretty quickly and you're most likely not going to like the experience. I think they can handle themselves just fine.      

I prefaced it because I think we live in a hyper PC world. However, I like to express myself this way when I'm talking basketball, so I did. I didn't preface because I personally thought what I was about to say was wrong because I don't.

This being said, the words/phrases "ballerinas, 6 year old girls and chicks" all have softer, feminine connotations to me. I do not view this as bad and this does not mean I think women are weak and soft.

To the contrary, I think the words male boxers, gladiators and mixed martial arts fighters generally carry tougher, more masculine connotations with them.

Therefore if I said I wish the Celtics would play more like male boxers or mixed martial arts guys and be tougher, stronger and be willing to nail someone coming down the lane ...should said gladiator or boxer take offense because I didn't mention that I also understand they too have a softer feminine side and are caring towards their wives, kids, family and other male friends?

Which group do we protect, the ballerinas or the boxers?

Certain words carry connotations that are in no way an all encompassing indictment of the female or male gender.

I wasn't outraged, it was a spirited expression of my personal sentiment and it was a long ways away from me being "outraged".

I do respect this site and agree with the Mods rules they'd like me to abide by. I have said this a lot of times already.    

[Roy H.]

This being said, the words/phrases "ballerinas, 6 year old girls and chicks" all have softer, feminine connotations to me. I do not view this as bad and this does not mean I think women are weak and soft.

To the contrary, I think the words male boxers, gladiators and mixed martial arts fighters generally carry tougher, more masculine connotations with them.

Therefore if I said I wish the Celtics would play more like male boxers or mixed martial arts guys and be tougher, stronger and be willing to nail someone coming down the lane ...should said gladiator or boxer take offense because I didn't mention that I also understand they too have a softer feminine side and are caring towards their wives, kids, family and other male friends?

Which group do we protect, the ballerinas or the boxers?

Certain words carry connotations that are in no way an all encompassing indictment of the female or male gender.  

Just to be clear on the context, your thread was titled "Refs and Women", not "Refs and Ballerinas".  You painted things with a pretty broad brush, and made multiple references to "chics".  I think your point had more legitimacy when your argument was that you didn't mean to offend, rather than this offshoot argument that you meant to somehow make a comparison to certain types of professions rather than others.

I mean, you've stated multiple times how much tougher you think women are, how you weren't trying to paint broad stereotypes, etc., and I just don't see how that jibes with the "Refs and Women" title, or "they are Chics at the rim!!" or "Take the dresses off guys and go get the series".  Those are just broad statements that clearly say "women are weak and soft".

Now, there's an interesting philosophical debate over whether it's appropriate to say "women are weak and soft" in the real world; I think many women would be fine with it, and many others would be insulted.  However, to try to limit the argument now to suggest that wasn't your meaning at all just doesn't ring true to me.

[ScoobyDoo]

Ok, so does this mean that, God forbid, we chose a slightly different word for the title and this is considered the original sin, that even when we have come back multiple, multiple times to express that what we meant was figurative and not an attack on women, that it still does not suffice for explanation?

Women, chicks, ladies, ballerinas, queens ( which could be misconstrued as Gay cross dressers I suppose, which could then get you in trouble with that segment of the population ...) I say these asides for effect and magnification of how over sensitive to language I think we are, IMHO - not as an attack on you Roy, or anyone else.

Men, boys, lads, dudes, boxers,

One question, when asked what my words meant, do the words I then say in response to the request for an explanation mean anything? Or is the original sin irrevocable and anything I say after that irrelevant? Because it sure feels that any attempt I've made to explain the context has had no affect whatsoever. I'm apparently a misogynistic, female basher.

When I said the Celts were playing like chicks, I meant it - I meant they are playing like the feminine connotation of the word chick, women, lady, etc. It was not an indictment on the entire spectrum of what it means to be female. When I said "Refs and women" in my title I meant to imply the softer connotations that are associated with women, chicks, ladies, etc.

When I said women are tougher than men I meant that. I thin they are. I would not have said it if I didn't believe it.

Is it possible to assume that words can have multiple meanings based on the context, that everything is not an attack and to hope or give credit to people that 99% of them have the analytical ability to comprehend the context without being offended? 

For example, the last thing I would gather form LeBron saying "the questions are retarded" is that he was attacking people with mental disabilities. I don't even know how anyone could get there.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Yo Eja, I'd tell the kids James wasn't referring to kids with mental disabilities, there are multiple interpretations of words and it depends on the context. But if they'd like to confront James for clarity I will be the flag bearer on their behalf and they have that right if they so choose to pursue it.

What, if I have a bunch of fat kids on the bus and Magic Johnson says Shaq is fat and out of shape and it upsets the kids, I now have to go back, hug all the fat kids, tell them they're special and give them all a trophy?

No, I don't think so.

If Johnny's upset, I ask him why? If he says cause someone said Shaq's fat and that reflects on me" I'd say "well, are you comfortable with your weight?" If he said yes, I'd say "then that's all that matters." If he said "no I'm not and that what Magic said hurt me", I'd say "well, then you now have an opportunity to change your life, this is a great day for you. But no one is going to do it for you, it's up to you to change your lot in life". But I'll help to get you pointed in the right direction, then you have to fend for yourself down the path to achieve the change you want..."

And no, we shouldn't hold athletes up to higher standards. What, are they special? I can't control what they say or do in the media and kids should be getting their sense of self and self worth from their parents, their family and their friends, not some diva athlete.

Who cares what Lebron thinks about anything? Or KG, make up your own mind. 

[Chris]

For example, the last thing I would gather form LeBron saying "the questions are retarded" is that he was attacking people with mental disabilities. I don't even know how anyone could get there.

 

I am not sure what is hard to understand about it.  Even taking context into account, it is incredibly offensive, because he was using the word that is generally used to describe mentally challenged people as an insult.  

I am a big fan of looking at context with these things.  And the context is [dang]ing here.  

I even will go with the argument that you can use the N word in a positive context, and it shouldn't be offensive.  However, if it is used as an insult, I don't think there is any grey area there.

So, when Lebron used the word "retarded" as an insult, it was absolutely offensive, not because of the word, but because of the context.  Just like when you used the words "women" or "chicks" to insult people, then that became offensive.

I personally don't think the word "chick" is necessarily an offensive word, and certainly "women" isn't, but when you use it to attack other people, then it is absolutely offensive.  

[Roy H.]

One question, when asked what my words meant, do the words I then say in response to the request for an explanation mean anything? Or is the original sin irrevocable and anything I say after that irrelevant? Because it sure feels that any attempt I've made to explain the context has had no affect whatsoever. I'm apparently a misogynistic, female basher.

When I said the Celts were playing like chicks, I meant it - I meant they are playing like the feminine connotation of the word chick, women, lady, etc. It was not an indictment on the entire spectrum of what it means to be female. When I said "Refs and women" in my title I meant to imply the softer connotations that are associated with women, chicks, ladies, etc.

When I said women are tougher than men I meant that. I thin they are. I would not have said it if I didn't believe it.

Is it possible to assume that words can have multiple meanings based on the context, that everything is not an attack and to hope or give credit to people that 99% of them have the analytical ability to comprehend the context without being offended? 
 

For me personally, I'm just confused by your argument.  It seems to be, "I think women are tougher than men, but I used the stereotypes "women", "chicks", etc., because I knew people would instantly equate those terms with softness and weakness".

If you believe women are tougher, then why are you using the word "women" as an analogy for "soft" or "weak"?  It just doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

I don't think you're a misogynist or had any hostile intent, and I accept your apology and appreciate that you will be careful about following the blog rules in the future.  Moving on to the thread that has sprung up from that discussion, though, I'm just confused by what you're saying.

I guess what it boils down to is, it's just weird that a guy who clearly has a lot of respect for women -- including those women in his family -- also uses the word "women" as shorthand for a lot of negative things.  I'm sure we all do stuff like that, and it's a chance to be introspective, I guess.

[ScoobyDoo]

TP to Osirus Celtics

I'm just more of this mind set. Take the training wheels off - which is not meant to offend anyone who is riding a bike with training wheels on it. You are special too. All it means is that until you have learned your way up to riding without training wheels, it is fair to say that the training wheels are seen as assistance to a rider who has slightly less riding ability than other people -

Assume people are of solid mind and reason and have the ability to think and fend for themselves.

I have two close girlfriends, one from Italy, one from Britain. I can say things to these girls that you couldn't dream of saying to most Americans, male or female, because we are so uptight about who's saying "BOO!" to us about anything.

They wouldn't understand this debate. Or rather, that there is a need for debate.

Osirus you probably don't agree with everything I've said - I just agree with what you said about letting people live and breath for themselves.  

[ScoobyDoo]

Hi MBz, re LeBron, I wouldn't give it a second thought. My interpretation, as it has been all my life, of the word retarded is "Stupid". Yes, I suppose the literal definition in the dictionary means mentally disabled, but I think most people use it as meaning stupid rather than mentally disabled as such associate the word as harmless and simply analogous to stupid or not smart, etc... when they use it. 

Now if he said, these question are like they are coming from "mentally disabled" people off the short bus...now we have a real problem.

I cannot stand LeBron, IMHO he represents everything that's wrong with professional sports and not all of that is his fault alone. However, can we pls give the guy a break. He meant he thought the questions were "stupid". He was not making a concerted effort to attack the entire mentally disabled population on the planet.

That is what I think about it to be honest with you. 

[shookones99]

Trust me when I tell you, I could care less if you or a million people said that ScoobyDoo played like a chick, or played weak and was terrible. It would mean exactly "zero" to me. Why? Because I could give two craps about what you or anyone says about me. Why? Because I don't derive my sense of self from anyone but me. If I did, I'd be in a lot of trouble. And I certainly don't need someone to "protect" me from words.

Well congradulations to you.  You seem pretty well grounded and like you have a good sense of self-confidence.  But the truth is everyone is wired differently and people handle situations differently.  It doesn't mean there's a right or wrong.

But those people deserve to be taken care of.  Especially when it's really not that hard of a thing to do.

[nickagneta]

Okay, so I have been following this thread for a while and figure now is as good a place to install my opinions:

1.) There is no such thing as complete freedom of speech in America if you are trying to voice your opinions in private establishments or workplaces. You can not say whatever you like in the workplace. It will get you fired, possibly sued and possibly sent to jail. The same for private establishments such as restaurants, bars, stores and the such. You can't yell out fire in a crowded department store. You can't call the guy next to you racial epitaphs if you are in a restaurant. And you can't use certain language, stereotype people, or act in a certain manner when participating on Celticsblog. Sorry, here, just like in other places there are limits to freedom of speech so lets all please act like we know this because we all do.

2.) History is a great teacher of why the present is the present and all one has to do is jump in Doc Emmett Brown's DeLorean and wisk back 50 years ago when race and gender and sexual preference was such a major problem for this country and white males especially used any language they wanted to describe a person of color or different race or gender or sexual preference to know why the world is so politically correct now. I find it hilarious that 99% of people who complain about PCness are probably Caucasians who have never once experienced racism or prejudice.

3.) I think there has been a tremendous moving of the goalposts in this thread to try to justify a viewpoint. Fact is, saying men are playing like women or the derogatory term "chicks" is against the rules here at Celticsblog and is somewhat insulting to both the Celtics players that were being described that way and women in general as it stereotyped and insulted women as a whole.

[boom]

/start rant

I didn't read the whole thread, because I'm 99% sure it's just a re-hash of the recent thread that got locked about two weeks ago.

However, I noticed that someone believed that James' use of "retarded" was offensive. That mindset is everything wrong with America today. Everything. I truly believe that everything wrong with America (and the world in general) boils down to people not realizing how ridiculous the things they get upset over are in the grand scheme of things. James used the word just as millions of people do daily, without intent to hurt or ridicule people with disabilities, and nothing is every going to change that for the simple fact of...wait for it...

LANGUAGE IS NOT STATIC AND IS EVER CHANGING

Words are used and manipulated throughout history, changing their meanings, and what once was considered taboo or hateful or whatever else can take on a new meaning.

/end rant

[Eja117]

TP to Osirus Celtics

I'm just more of this mind set. Take the training wheels off - which is not meant to offend anyone who is riding a bike with training wheels on it. You are special too. All it means is that until you have learned your way up to riding without training wheels, it is fair to say that the training wheels are seen as assistance to a rider who has slightly less riding ability than other people -

Assume people are of solid mind and reason and have the ability to think and fend for themselves.

I have two close girlfriends, one from Italy, one from Britain. I can say things to these girls that you couldn't dream of saying to most Americans, male or female, because we are so uptight about who's saying "BOO!" to us about anything.

They wouldn't understand this debate. Or rather, that there is a need for debate.

Osirus you probably don't agree with everything I've said - I just agree with what you said about letting people live and breath for themselves.  

Well I married a Euro chick. Between us we can speak/understand about 5 languages and I'm pretty sure she would understand why it's weak for Lebron to say "retarded" under his breath.


I think you're misunderstanding some of what sets apart Euro women. They may not worry as much about language because they speak more and know words have different meanings, but also because in their history they have bigger things to worry about like being deported to Siberia. But they still understand offensive language.

In the mean time I think that's great that you would tell fat kids they have an opportunity to change their life. Very therapeutic. Try doing that with special kids. Then since I am pretty sure there is a special kid out there somewhere that was offended and would wish to confront D Wade I'd like to kno what color your flag would be, and how you plan on going about this.

[boom]

3.) I think there has been a tremendous moving of the goalposts in this thread to try to justify a viewpoint. Fact is, saying men are playing like women or the derogatory term "chicks" is against the rules here at Celticsblog and is somewhat insulting to both the Celtics players that were being described that way and women in general as it stereotyped and insulted women as a whole.

What if someone said, "Those girls are playing like guys!" Are you assuming the intent is different? Is that against the rules?

What about, "Those guys are playing like chicks!" referring to the UConn or Tenn. women teams?

Do you know of any woman that would get offended by either of those?

[ScoobyDoo]

Hi Chris, well, I don't associate the word "retarded" with "mentally disabled" people. I understand that the literal definition of the word is mentally disabled but over the course of my life I don't think I could count on one hand with two fingers the number of people that mean "mentally disabled" when they use the word retarded. That would be assuming that everyone using the word is doing so with malicious intent. I don't buy that but I could be wrong. I think they mean stupid, or not smart or something that "doesn't make sense to them", like directions that seem unclear, etc.

It just doesn't cross my mind that James was meaning to say that the questions were "as if they were being asked by mentally disabled people". If that were the case, we'd have a serious problem.

I don't think saying players are playing like chicks is an insult. One aspect of the female gender is soft and physically less aggressive than males but does not encompass the entire spectrum of the female gender. It was just a metaphor.

I've actually had girls on a basketball court tell me to stop playing like a little Edited.  Profanity and masked profanity are against forum rules and may result in discipline. or like a chick and get under the glass" during a game. All they mean is get more physical. Maybe that's a product of growing up in Maine, I don't know...    

[boom]

Trust me when I tell you, I could care less if you or a million people said that ScoobyDoo played like a chick, or played weak and was terrible. It would mean exactly "zero" to me. Why? Because I could give two craps about what you or anyone says about me. Why? Because I don't derive my sense of self from anyone but me. If I did, I'd be in a lot of trouble. And I certainly don't need someone to "protect" me from words.

Well congradulations to you.  You seem pretty well grounded and like you have a good sense of self-confidence.  But the truth is everyone is wired differently and people handle situations differently.  It doesn't mean there's a right or wrong.

But those people deserve to be taken care of.  Especially when it's really not that hard of a thing to do.

Why should the majority of society cave to a select few that get offended by things that shouldn't offend them to begin with? Remember the old saying, "Sticks and stones will break my bones but words will never hurt me."? Does that not ring true still? Or are we teaching children these days that they should be hurt and offended by every little thing someone says?

I'm offended by some of these threads calling Wade's hit on Rondo cheap. I feel like it's a jab at the Jewish stereotype. Please close all threads containing that word.