Joakim Noah is a dirty player....weird

[Chris]

Noah is, and always has been KG without the offense.  Both of them are pests who like to get under the skin of opponents, and neither has any interest in an actual fight. 

Noah should never be mentioned in the same breathe as KG in any facet of the game of basketball, plain and simple. KG's offensive repertoire is about as broad as it gets for a big man. His defense, many consider to be one of the greatest of all-time. His passing, few greater at his size, ever. Rebounding, led the league 4 straight years. MVP, DPOY, Champion.

OK, maybe the comparison is an exageration, but that wasn't the spirit of my post.  This is about their style as agitators, and I think that comparison is right on.  No need to nitpick about details that aren't part of the real discussion at hand.

[GreenEnvy]

Since when has there been a direct correlation between toughness and willingness to fight?

You can't be a tough player because you are unwilling to fight? You have to be able to lose your cool enough to throw down during a game and, especially when the best player on your team, be willing to get ejected, suspended, and fined.

My definition of a tough player is a guy who keeps going no matter what. Injured. Tired. Struggling. Doesn't matter. 100% every time out there. Take the physical punishment of the game and keep banging bodies.


You all can have your Ron Artest's and Stephen Jackson's to duke it out with whatever player, no matter the size, age or color of his skin, because as IndeedProceed pointed out, all those things apparently matters when defining a player's toughness - I'll take the Kobe's (not literally, I hate the man) and KG's on my team anyday.

[2short]

so is kermit washington a tough guy for "fighting" rudy t way back when?
dennis rodman was the dirtiest player I can think of and he would walk away puffing like a bird trying to draw t's on the other player

I think a lot of the fighting thing has to do with the player himself, danny ainge was a pain in the butt as a player, not dirty but would get into your head, he'd fight a tree    if need be
scott skiles same way

[Chris]

Since when has there been a direct correlation between toughness and willingness to fight?

You can't be a tough player because you are unwilling to fight? You have to be able to lose your cool enough to throw down during a game and, especially when the best player on your team, be willing to get ejected, suspended, and fined.

My definition of a tough player is a guy who keeps going no matter what. Injured. Tired. Struggling. Doesn't matter. 100% every time out there. Take the physical punishment of the game and keep banging bodies.


You all can have your Ron Artest's and Stephen Jackson's to duke it out with whatever player, no matter the size, age or color of his skin, because as IndeedProceed pointed out, all those things apparently matters when defining a player's toughness - I'll take the Kobe's (not literally, I hate the man) and KG's on my team anyday.

We're talking semantics here.  It's not about KG being "tough", its about whether he is a "Tough Guy".  Some might prefer the words "Thug", or "Enforcer".

Basically, the claim is, KG and Noah present themselves as "Toughguys", "Thugs", or "Enforcers", but they are really more talk than action when it comes to really laying down the lumber.  They know how valuable they are to their teams, and are not going to risk that by giving the hard fouls or throwing punches.  

In hockey terms, they are more Brad Marchand than Shawn Thornton.  Get under the other teams skin, talk a lot of trash, get the other team to cross the line...but they aren't really the guys who are going to be dropping the gloves (nor should they).  

[indeedproceed]

so is kermit washington a tough guy for "fighting" rudy t way back when?
dennis rodman was the dirtiest player I can think of and he would walk away puffing like a bird trying to draw t's on the other player

I think a lot of the fighting thing has to do with the player himself, danny ainge was a pain in the butt as a player, not dirty but would get into your head, he'd fight a tree    if need be
scott skiles same way

I don't think what Kermit Washington did to Rudy T would be classified as fighting by anyone.

[GreenEnvy]

Noah is, and always has been KG without the offense.  Both of them are pests who like to get under the skin of opponents, and neither has any interest in an actual fight. 

Noah should never be mentioned in the same breathe as KG in any facet of the game of basketball, plain and simple. KG's offensive repertoire is about as broad as it gets for a big man. His defense, many consider to be one of the greatest of all-time. His passing, few greater at his size, ever. Rebounding, led the league 4 straight years. MVP, DPOY, Champion.

OK, maybe the comparison is an exageration, but that wasn't the spirit of my post.  This is about their style as agitators, and I think that comparison is right on.  No need to nitpick about details that aren't part of the real discussion at hand.

Well, considering you have no real proof either is unwilling to fight outside of an NBA-game, that part is irrelevant.

And I don't even consider them the same type of agitator. KG will trash talk and be extra physical (with legal moves) with you to throw you off your game. Noah simply goes wild off his own emotion and seemingly annoys everyone. I have no idea whether or not he is an actual trash-talker or not, but have never heard anything to support the notion that he is.

Maybe they both wear their heart on their sleeve, but KG is always seems to be in control of his actions sans a very few moments over his 15 years in the NBA.

Noah appears to act (and speak) without thinking, on and off the court. Maybe it is a maturity issue, but regardless, I fail to see the comparison between those two in any way.

[GreenEnvy]

Since when has there been a direct correlation between toughness and willingness to fight?

You can't be a tough player because you are unwilling to fight? You have to be able to lose your cool enough to throw down during a game and, especially when the best player on your team, be willing to get ejected, suspended, and fined.

My definition of a tough player is a guy who keeps going no matter what. Injured. Tired. Struggling. Doesn't matter. 100% every time out there. Take the physical punishment of the game and keep banging bodies.


You all can have your Ron Artest's and Stephen Jackson's to duke it out with whatever player, no matter the size, age or color of his skin, because as IndeedProceed pointed out, all those things apparently matters when defining a player's toughness - I'll take the Kobe's (not literally, I hate the man) and KG's on my team anyday.

We're talking semantics here.  It's not about KG being "tough", its about whether he is a "Tough Guy".  Some might prefer the words "Thug", or "Enforcer".

Basically, the claim is, KG and Noah present themselves as "Toughguys", "Thugs", or "Enforcers", but they are really more talk than action when it comes to really laying down the lumber.  They know how valuable they are to their teams, and are not going to risk that by giving the hard fouls or throwing punches.  

In hockey terms, they are more Brad Marchand than Shawn Thornton.  Get under the other teams skin, talk a lot of trash, get the other team to cross the line...but they aren't really the guys who are going to be dropping the gloves (nor should they).  

Again, who cares whether a guy is willing to fight. Hockey analogies in this discussion are a moot point, because fighting is not only accepted, but often celebrated in the NHL.

A tough guy is not only defined by how quickly he will throw up his dukes.

Do you think there is a difference between the impact of Perkins of that of KG? One, for one reason or another, gets the "tough guy" label, the other is a "fake tough guy." Yet I've rarely if ever seen Perkins take a legit swing at somebody. He stares people down, he "loses control" of his elbows, he pushes and shoves too. But he isn't a fighter.

Nobody questions Perkins' toughness image or in your words, if it makes a difference, whether he is a "tough guy."

It's all about image. Maybe KG gets it because he does the same sort of stuff, whether it is Villanueva, Frye, Barea, or whoever. I truly don't believe he picks and choses who to act like he does with. He will defend anyone, picking up PG's in the backcourt and get into it with someone like Calderon. If Dwight Howard routinely took the ball up, he'd push his buttons  eventually too.

If anything, those players (such as Frye, Barea) start stuff because they know rarely does something go down during an NBA game, so they can get away with it. They can basically show up KG after he p---es them off enough. I can act tough with anyone in a police station with four of my friends around me, but it doesn't make me a "tough guy."

[drza44]

NBA "tough guy" does not equal fight.  Not even the same equation.

It's not, IMO, a case of "NBA players talk a lot but don't want to fight".

Instead, it's "NBA players talk a lot which has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH FIGHTING."

To say someone is all bark and no bite connotes that they were barking about something, then when called upon to follow up did nothing.

Instead, in the case of the really good NBA trash talkers, they were talking a lot and BACKED IT UP RUTHLESSLY ON THE COURT.

Huge difference in my opinion.  I'm sorry for all the caps, but that's just a really silly line of thought to me.  If a basketball player talks mad trash to his opponent on the court, proceeds to stomp a mutt-hole in him as a player, and is uninterested in fighting...he more than backed up his bark IMO.  To think that fighting has any bearing at all on the bark/bite continuum is as ridiculous to me as someone calling Mohammed Ali all bark/no bite because he never proved he could hit a jump-shot in Foreman's eye.

Eh, I think your metaphor is lacking a bit, although it is pretty snappy.

We'll never know what is actually said on the court, but if a guy questions another guy's manhood, calls him a coward (or another 5 letter word meaning coward), and as a result gets into a confrontation which he than retreats from, I think in a lot of ways that's sending conflicting messages.

I think your view of what constitutes 'tough', and the intended meaning of 'tough' in the view of actual basketball players is a bit more optimistic and idealoigcal than practical. These guys aren't brought up to prove their manhood by soundly boxing out a guy and getting a contested rebound, or being able to hit a fadeaway baseline jumper, and when they question a guy's manhood, they're not questioning whether or not he's a 85% freethrow shooter.

No offense intended, as I know nothing of your background, but I dare say that I share more of a background with the way "these guys" are brought up than maybe anyone on this board, and your description of trash talk is lacking.  It's just not true, because it's all about context.

If I'm out on the street and I tell someone, "You a (5 letter word meaning coward).  I'm bout to make you my son, (expletive deleted)."  Then yeah, I'm ready to fight. 

But if I say that EXACT same thing to that EXACT same person on the court, it means I'm about to make him look stupid on the basketball court.  No, it's not about boxing out technique or free throw percentage...it's about me being so much better than him on the court that I'm gonna make him look weak, and I'm telling him about it before I do it, while I'm doing it, AND after I'm done doing it.  And again, let me be clear...THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ME FIGHTING HIM!

Now, a good trash talk/on-court beat down can LEAD to a fight if the person that got embarrassed feels like they have to try to do SOMETHING to get some kind of pride back.  But in that case, the person talking the trash already won.  It means they got in the person's head.

Case in point.  In any of the 5-million "KG is a punk" threads that have circulated the various message boards in the last couple of years, someone will ALWAYS mention Anthony Peeler.  For those few who don't know the Peeler reference, he was a shooting guard for the Kings (and former KG teammate in Minnesota) who got into it with KG in game 6 of the 2004 2nd round of the playoffs.  After exchanging shoves, Peeler threw a bow at KG's chin and squared off.  KG hopped up and down and then stepped back.  Peeler was suspended for game 7.  KG wasn't, and proceeded to drop 32 points, 21 boards, 5 blocks, 4 steals and one of the greatest game 7s in NBA history on Peeler's Kings to eliminate them from the playoffs.

Now.  Internet nerds who weigh in on message boards always bring this up as Peeler showing KG who is tough.  But I GUARANTEE you that for any player on either of those 2 teams, KG kicked Peeler's tail.  He not only beat him down, he gave the entire city of Sacramento a beating as well.  That's a basketball tough guy.  And again, it had NOTHING to do with the actual fight.

[2short]

so is kermit washington a tough guy for "fighting" rudy t way back when?
dennis rodman was the dirtiest player I can think of and he would walk away puffing like a bird trying to draw t's on the other player

I think a lot of the fighting thing has to do with the player himself, danny ainge was a pain in the butt as a player, not dirty but would get into your head, he'd fight a tree    if need be
scott skiles same way

I don't think what Kermit Washington did to Rudy T would be classified as fighting by anyone.

hence the quotes
but because he was willing to swing a cheap shot does that make kermit a tough guy?
i'd consider him a punk
my point is the whole discussion of kg being not a tough guy who is dirty and backs away from fights etc etc is just silly

[BballTim]

dennis rodman was the dirtiest player I can think of

  Bruce Bowen says hello.

[aporel#18]

dennis rodman was the dirtiest player I can think of

  Bruce Bowen says hello.

"Medical" Bill Cartwright anyone?

How about Bill Laimbeer?

Howard the Coward is dirty with all the elbow throwing.

Noah is a likable kid, he just happens to play to a franchise we hate (me, at least). He's second on my Celtics wish list, after Marc Gasol.

Go Celtics!!

[JBcat]

NBA "tough guy" does not equal fight.  Not even the same equation.

It's not, IMO, a case of "NBA players talk a lot but don't want to fight".

Instead, it's "NBA players talk a lot which has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH FIGHTING."

To say someone is all bark and no bite connotes that they were barking about something, then when called upon to follow up did nothing.

Instead, in the case of the really good NBA trash talkers, they were talking a lot and BACKED IT UP RUTHLESSLY ON THE COURT.

Huge difference in my opinion.  I'm sorry for all the caps, but that's just a really silly line of thought to me.  If a basketball player talks mad trash to his opponent on the court, proceeds to stomp a mutt-hole in him as a player, and is uninterested in fighting...he more than backed up his bark IMO.  To think that fighting has any bearing at all on the bark/bite continuum is as ridiculous to me as someone calling Mohammed Ali all bark/no bite because he never proved he could hit a jump-shot in Foreman's eye.

Eh, I think your metaphor is lacking a bit, although it is pretty snappy.

We'll never know what is actually said on the court, but if a guy questions another guy's manhood, calls him a coward (or another 5 letter word meaning coward), and as a result gets into a confrontation which he than retreats from, I think in a lot of ways that's sending conflicting messages.

I think your view of what constitutes 'tough', and the intended meaning of 'tough' in the view of actual basketball players is a bit more optimistic and idealoigcal than practical. These guys aren't brought up to prove their manhood by soundly boxing out a guy and getting a contested rebound, or being able to hit a fadeaway baseline jumper, and when they question a guy's manhood, they're not questioning whether or not he's a 85% freethrow shooter.

No offense intended, as I know nothing of your background, but I dare say that I share more of a background with the way "these guys" are brought up than maybe anyone on this board, and your description of trash talk is lacking.  It's just not true, because it's all about context.

If I'm out on the street and I tell someone, "You a (5 letter word meaning coward).  I'm bout to make you my son, (expletive deleted)."  Then yeah, I'm ready to fight. 

But if I say that EXACT same thing to that EXACT same person on the court, it means I'm about to make him look stupid on the basketball court.  No, it's not about boxing out technique or free throw percentage...it's about me being so much better than him on the court that I'm gonna make him look weak, and I'm telling him about it before I do it, while I'm doing it, AND after I'm done doing it.  And again, let me be clear...THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ME FIGHTING HIM!

Now, a good trash talk/on-court beat down can LEAD to a fight if the person that got embarrassed feels like they have to try to do SOMETHING to get some kind of pride back.  But in that case, the person talking the trash already won.  It means they got in the person's head.

Case in point.  In any of the 5-million "KG is a punk" threads that have circulated the various message boards in the last couple of years, someone will ALWAYS mention Anthony Peeler.  For those few who don't know the Peeler reference, he was a shooting guard for the Kings (and former KG teammate in Minnesota) who got into it with KG in game 6 of the 2004 2nd round of the playoffs.  After exchanging shoves, Peeler threw a bow at KG's chin and squared off.  KG hopped up and down and then stepped back.  Peeler was suspended for game 7.  KG wasn't, and proceeded to drop 32 points, 21 boards, 5 blocks, 4 steals and one of the greatest game 7s in NBA history on Peeler's Kings to eliminate them from the playoffs.

Now.  Internet nerds who weigh in on message boards always bring this up as Peeler showing KG who is tough.  But I GUARANTEE you that for any player on either of those 2 teams, KG kicked Peeler's tail.  He not only beat him down, he gave the entire city of Sacramento a beating as well.  That's a basketball tough guy.  And again, it had NOTHING to do with the actual fight.

Well said. TP

[dtrader]

Apparently Noah has taken some tips from his life long role model and has been playing a little bit dirty on the basketball court.

To him he is "just playing basketball". Apparently it's different than what KG does.

Let's see if Noah and the Bulls are okay with the physical play still once we play them.

http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/nba/news/story?id=6434456

I watched the game, and I didn't see him do anything dirty. Maybe he was just real good at concealing it, but considering the way virtually every other player (on both sides) came out and said that he WASNT playing dirty, I think it's just Granger being salty.

Contrast that with KG...we've all seen the crotch shot, and when it was insinuated that KG plays dirty, virtually every non-celtic agreed that he does 

Just because McRoberts isn't complaining and whining like other players in the league doesn't mean he's not playing dirty. He's basically doing what every other player in the NBA should be doing. Some players are more outspoken than others.Should we only recognize something when a player is complaining about it?


And for me I still don't even think the crotch shot is that bad. Is that really the worst kind of hit NBA players take on a nightly basis? I'm sure a lot worse and dirtier things happen constantly. The crotch shot is a high school move. Not to mention Bill Walker did the same exact thing to Sasha in the last game of the season and I don't know if anyone even remember's it. Oh and Sasha didn't fall to the ground and jump up like he was going to murder someone after either

How Noah or McRoberts or anyone compares in terms of skill has nothing to do with the discussion at hard. This is just about who is a dirty player. The fact is, that EVERYONE that was asked (aside from 1 player from the losing team), specifically said that Noah WAS NOT a dirty player, or playing dirty.  Regardless of how it looked on TV or we feel about it, the players know best, and they all say that Noah IS NOT a dirty player. 

On the other hand when players are asked about kg, a majority say he DOES play dirty. Not just players who just lost against him. Not just scrubs. Many players have said that KG plays dirty.

And yes...the crotch shot is just about the worst thing you can do in regards of dirty, cowardly plays. It doesnt matter who else did it, where you saw worse, or what the person who got hit did after being hit. It's dirty, and cowardly to hit a man in that area (especially when he isnt expecting it), and it's a shame for a grown man to do it.

I love 99% of what kg brings to the table on the court, but I lost a bit of respect for him when I saw that. It's a move that wouldn't even enter the mind of a player that isn't "dirty".   

[Celticsfan336]

I respect Noah as a player, and he is a good person. I hate playing against him though.

But about him being a dirty player....I think he plays hard, and he may throw some elbows and other stuff, but they all do it. If Noahs dirty, then KG is dirty as well. I don't think either players are dirty, they are just physical competitors who aren't afraid to get a little physical down low.

But yeah, I'd love to see him try and get 'dirty' with KG and Shaq and JO.

[BballTim]

And yes...the crotch shot is just about the worst thing you can do in regards of dirty, cowardly plays.

  I'm not advocating what KG did, but a lot of things are much worse. Start with Bowen putting his foot where someone's going to land from a jump or putting your elbow where someone's head might be like DH.