Your Endless Negativity Swayed Me

[ACF]

Ah, a reverse psychology thingy. Interesting.

[Rondo2287]

It isn't your fault, Danny had earned a lot of trust over the last few years so we didn't expect him to make such a massive mistake.

I still think we beat the Knicks, though

Are you sure, you don't think we are gonna get swept?

[Marcus13]

It isn't your fault, Danny had earned a lot of trust over the last few years so we didn't expect him to make such a massive mistake.

I still think we beat the Knicks, though

Are you sure, you don't think we are gonna get swept?

Nah, I got Celtics in 6 but we're not getting past Miami

[Rondo2287]

It isn't your fault, Danny had earned a lot of trust over the last few years so we didn't expect him to make such a massive mistake.

I still think we beat the Knicks, though

Are you sure, you don't think we are gonna get swept?

Nah, I got Celtics in 6 but we're not getting past Miami

I got Knicks in 3

[Eja117]

Where's the sarcasm tag?

no sarcasm here.  I've argued all month that I couldn't judge the trade until I saw how this team played in the playoffs with Shaq... focused, practiced and caught-up.   The posters on this board got me to see the error in my thinking.  Shaq might never walk again let alone play competitive basketball.  We know what this team is... playoff fodder for the Knicks.  No need to wait... the trade was a disaster.  Might as well just fire Ainge now and get it over with.  1 hit wonder.

Ok maybe slight sarcasm there, but I have definitely changed my stance on the trade and I stand by the points i made in the thread. 

In short:  I was pro-trade, and I was basing my reasoning on Shaq being healthy and this team being ready to beat the Lakers. Flawed thinking, because Shaq looks like he's done and we swapped out 8 of the guys who were embarrassed by the Lakers.  My hope is gone.

OK, will you apologize once again when this team once again proves doubter wrong as they've done 4 years in a row?

Yes I will.  

[Eja117]

I actually liked the trade when it happened.  I thought Perk was overrated.  A big body who plays defense and gets some rebounds.  I loved Jeff Green.  I thought the kid was a stud who was just stuck playing out of position in OKC.  I made giant leaps of logic, claimed he was a future "fringe all-star" and compared his talent level to someone like Danny Granger... saying that had Granger been stuck playing Power Forward full time next to Durant, he would have put up numbers equal to Jeff Green.  I figured we lost very little... and gained a lot for our present and future.  I pointed out that Perk only played 12 games this year and that we were probably a better team with Shaq.  I said that removing Perk solidified Jermaine O'Neal's role... and that now he was going to fully buy into being a Celtic either as a starter or our 6th man.  I was so delusional this year that I actually posted in a thread that I had finally gained respect for Glen Davis.

But an endless stream of negativity from this forum finally swayed me.  I'm here to admit I was wrong.  You're right guys.  Sorry.  I'm was being an idiot homer and looking at things through green-tinted glasses.  Kudos to those of you who argued with me.  You win.  Pat yourselves on the back!

My biggest mistakes:

#1 Shaq -  This entire time I was under the impression that Danny Ainge wasn't a total moron.  The idea that he'd put this team's title hopes on a 39 year old fatty who has a history of missing games was so absurd that I assumed (incorrectly) that Ainge knew something I didn't.  In other words, I thought that Shaq was healthy.  I legitimately thought that the Celtics planned all along that Shaq was going to take most of the regular season off.  I figured it was written in his contract... he's a legend, the regular season essentially is irrelevant and he's a weapon to be saved for the playoffs anyways. If Shaq wanted to take a couple months to film a TV show or something, that was fine.  This entire time I seriously thought that the Celtics had him on some kind of weight-loss and leg-strengthening regimen and that his "injury" was a joke.  I figured we would unleash a "rejuvenated" Shaq on the NBA in the playoffs and destroy the league.  I figured Ainge/Doc saw how well we were playing with Shaq at the start of the season and decided, "you know what... we got this.  Our only real weakness is a backup for Pierce.  Shaq should be starting for us... we are better off with him than Perk... let's save shaq for the playoffs and strengthen our only weakness"....   In other words, I was an idiot.  You guys are right.  Danny Ainge absolutely should be fired at season's end.  It's completely totally moronic... we win the 2010 title with a good big man... so Ainge makes a trade where we end up relying on a 39 year old BROKEN fatty.  I doubt we even see Shaq in the playoffs.  He looks like he can barely walk.  I was stupid to have faith in Celtics management.  It was borderline criminal relying on this fat former Laker.  The basketball gods will have our heads for it. 
  
#2 - Perk ...  I underestimated his value.  I forgot a couple key things.  First, I read a quote from Cliff Ray where he said the best defensive player on the Celtics was Perkins.  You'd figure he'd say KG, but he actually reiterated that Perk was the most important guy out there.  Second, I forgot the numerous quotes from people throughout the league that said that Boston set the best picks out of any team in the league.   Our offense has gone in the tank since Perk left.  Ray can't get open.  Perk is a monster at setting screens and with him (and Shaq) gone, Ray always has two guys on him, Rondo can't get any assists and we have to rely on Rondo bricking a wide-open jumper, driving to the lane and bricking free throws... or tossing it to Glen Davis so he can brick a shot... You guys were right.  I was wrong.  I'm an idiot.  Our 4 all-stars should retroactively be stripped of their "all-star" designations.  Hall-of-Famers or not... they are nothing without Perk.  Playoff fodder for the Knicks (who have no center) or the Heat (who have no center).  That's saying something.    

#3 - Our System/Chemistry -  I said countless times that I wasn't concerned about our end-of-season losses.  It's easy for OKC to fit in Perk.  They just needed a big body.  However, I explained that the Celtics system was intricate and notoriously hard to pick up for newcomers... and that by bringing in 5 new players, we were inevitable heading for a month-long slump while we had what amounted to pre-season.  "You can't expect these guys to play like Celtics the second they get here", I said... With our limited practice time (where the starters weren't even participating), I said that come playoff time we'd be ready.  

Somehow while saying all these things, I was glossing over the first thing I said:  THE CELTICS SYSTEM IS INTRICATE AND NOTORIOUSLY HARD TO PICK UP FOR NEWCOMERS.   Sam Cassell never got it.  Nate RObinson never got it.  I AM AN IDIOT for assuming that these 5 players would get it. You guys were right.  I was wrong.   They look lost out there.  We ran out of time.    

Also, I underestimated how much that trade killed ubuntu and our chemistry.  The Celtics should be angry about choking away game 7 against the Lakers.  That was a winnable game.  Every player/coach on the team should be driven with the goal to get back to the finals and destroy whoever stands in front of them.  Forget the regular season, I figured... these boys have a chip on their shoulders.  Once playoff time comes... look out.  These boys are looking for blood! ....   Unfortunately, I'm an idiot. "These boys" don't exist.  Somehow I neglected to realize that the entire team is different.  Tony, Sheed, Perk, Nate, Quis, Finley, Shelden and Scal are gone.  In replace of them we will expect minutes from JO, Green, Delonte, Krstic and maybe Shaq, Murphy, Arroyo, Sasha, Wafer and Bradley...  Even our mastermind coach is gone (leading the Bulls to the NBA's best record).   The team that got humiliated by the Lakers doesn't exist any more.  This Celtics team has no more of a "chip" on it's shoulder than the Heat do with LeBron (who got humiliated by the Celtics last year).   You guys win.  


#4 - Jeff Green -  Wow.  Shows flashes, but bricks half his shots.  Looks completely uncomfortable.  Looks lost on defense.  Shows no aggression.  I expected "Rondo-To-Green" to be a common sight, but Jeff Shows none of the explosive high-flying finishing I thought he had.  I thought he'd be a defensive stopper for the Brons/Kobes... but I'm not seeing that out of him at all.  He's put up some stats and I figure he'll be part of our core next year when KG and Ray retire and the Celtics are lottery-bound... but I have to admit that you guys were right once again.  Jeff Green is a 7th man on this team.  We traded a starting center for a nobody.  His only value at this point is basically "Paul Pierce insurance"... and if we ever need to use "Paul Pierce" insurance, we're toast anyways.  I clearly don't know enough about the NBA outside of Boston.  I was dead wrong on this kid.  You guys swayed me.

#5 -  Obese (Glen Davis) - He's a fat loser.  How the heck does this guy continue to get fatter while playing for a championship caliber team?  I saw him shirtless in the latest episode of "The Assocation" standing next to a shirtless Ray Allen and it's a freakin embarrassment.  Too many pancakes, not enough focus.  He did look pretty good early on in the season as a backup, but I guess my mind was clouded by all the Shaq-fueled early-season dominance.  Reiterating what I've said about "Obese" for years... he is only as good as his teammates.  Not a great defender.  Pretty poor rebounder.  Poor finisher.  Hits some wide open shots.   It's not all Glen's fault.  Team's have found a way to exploit the Celtics by making them "live and die" with Glen Davis jumpers.  When he makes them, he's a hero.  When he doesn't, he looks like the bench-warming role player he's destined to become.  No need to beat a dead horse here.  I'm back on the bandwagon... Glen Davis is a bum



Bottom line:  Thanks for setting me straight.  TP's for all of you who were on board with Celtic Pride dying weeks before I was.  I look forward to our lively debates in the offseason where we will argue over who should replace Ainge/Rivers and who will fill the void left by KG and Ray.    See you all on May 1st, I guess.  Knicks in Six.

Remember the movie Gettysburgh when the cavalry officer tried to resign and Lee wouldn't accept it?



There is no time for that! There is no time!  The enemy is over there and we shall attack them!

[Eja117]

You remember in "The Godfather" where Michael Corleone is rejecting his place in the family.  He has misguided hopes of a noble and victorious life... but he ends up at the hospital to find his weak/dying father Vito all alone in a hospital bed and suddenly comes to terms with the reality of the situation and his destiny?... He leans over and whispers to father, "... I'm with you now".

Well it's kinda like that... except that you guys are a fanbase who realizes the Celtics are weak and dying all alone in a hospital bed... and I'm leaning over and holding your hand and whispering in your ears, "... I'm with you now".   We got this, guys... lets fail together.  It's our destiny.  I'm with you now.

I want to be Joe Pesci from Goodfellas.  Is this your pen? Is this your pen? Ha! Have your pen! Have your pen! There! You got your pen now?

[snively]

So what's your take on the Knicks trade LarBrd?

[JSD]

TP for the OP

Great tong and cheek post, LarBrd33.

[LarBrd33]

So what's your take on the Knicks trade LarBrd?

In the playoff prediction thread, I have the Knicks beating us in 6... and Denver getting swept by Orlando in the finals... I wouldn't put money on that though.  I have no idea.

I think the Knicks got a little worse short-term, but will look a lot better long-term. 

For those of you who think I'm trolling... I'll say that if Shaq miraculously comes back and looks like he did at the start of the season, it was a good trade.  I use to have faith that management expected it.... so I had faith it would happen. I can no longer support the trade knowing how questionable Shaq's status has been (and will continue to be).  That was a boneheaded move... and we will not go very far thanks to it.     

[Tai]

Will you apologize if we fail in the playoffs miserably BudWiser?

Nope. A lot has to happen for me to judge the trade a failure, and losing in the playoffs is the least of it.

+1

There's still going to be a high first round choice to either trade or add. 

The only way this trade looks bad long-term is if Green isn't resigned.  But there was no guaranty we'd have signed Perk.

I understand your reasoning, because I agreed with it until the smarter people on this forum smacked me back into reality. 

Here's the thing though:  Championships matter.  That first round choice is irrelevant.  Everything I keep hearing leads me to believe that we'll have a lengthy lockout and at the very least KG will not return.  That leaves our window as THIS YEAR.  Granted, I agreed that getting Jeff Green for Perk was good value, but I based that on the idea that Shaq was a lock to play.  Seeing how fragile and questionable Shaq's status has actually been, it makes that trade completely a failure.   As Simmons mentions in his most recent podcast... It doesn't even sound like Ainge shopped Perkins around.  He got shafted by OKC who likes to keep things "hush/hush".  Had he shopped around Perk... maybe you get a better offer... something like Marcus Camby and Rudy Fernandez.  Who knows.  My example is pretty weak.  As the fans on this board have pointed out... Perkins was essentially the MVP our team.  The best defensive center in the league.  An true starting a center.  You're telling me the best we can get for a championship starting center is Jeff Green??  Could you have gotten Oden/Camby and Batum?  I mean.. we're talking KENDRICK Freakin PERKINS here.  He's a stah.  The priority should have been to bring in a guy who could back up Pierce, but also bring in a vet who would give you Shaq-insurance.  Ainge essentially did that by getting Green (pierce back-up) and Krstic (Shaq insurance), but Krstic is a horrible defender.  There might have been better deals out there... 

Where are you getting that we coulda had this guy or that? If you're gonna deliberately make up stuff, you come off as someone who's just being derisive. Considering several names for backup SF came up at the trade deadline that hte C's were interested in (Dudley, Parker, Butler, Wright), I have a hard time believing this wasn't the best trade they could have gotten. You're only saying "we couldn't do better?" because Green hasn't done as well as he supposedly could have.

[LarBrd33]

Will you apologize if we fail in the playoffs miserably BudWiser?

Nope. A lot has to happen for me to judge the trade a failure, and losing in the playoffs is the least of it.

+1

There's still going to be a high first round choice to either trade or add. 

The only way this trade looks bad long-term is if Green isn't resigned.  But there was no guaranty we'd have signed Perk.

I understand your reasoning, because I agreed with it until the smarter people on this forum smacked me back into reality. 

Here's the thing though:  Championships matter.  That first round choice is irrelevant.  Everything I keep hearing leads me to believe that we'll have a lengthy lockout and at the very least KG will not return.  That leaves our window as THIS YEAR.  Granted, I agreed that getting Jeff Green for Perk was good value, but I based that on the idea that Shaq was a lock to play.  Seeing how fragile and questionable Shaq's status has actually been, it makes that trade completely a failure.   As Simmons mentions in his most recent podcast... It doesn't even sound like Ainge shopped Perkins around.  He got shafted by OKC who likes to keep things "hush/hush".  Had he shopped around Perk... maybe you get a better offer... something like Marcus Camby and Rudy Fernandez.  Who knows.  My example is pretty weak.  As the fans on this board have pointed out... Perkins was essentially the MVP our team.  The best defensive center in the league.  An true starting a center.  You're telling me the best we can get for a championship starting center is Jeff Green??  Could you have gotten Oden/Camby and Batum?  I mean.. we're talking KENDRICK Freakin PERKINS here.  He's a stah.  The priority should have been to bring in a guy who could back up Pierce, but also bring in a vet who would give you Shaq-insurance.  Ainge essentially did that by getting Green (pierce back-up) and Krstic (Shaq insurance), but Krstic is a horrible defender.  There might have been better deals out there... 

Where are you getting that we coulda had this guy or that? If you're gonna deliberately make up stuff, you come off as someone who's just being derisive. Considering several names for backup SF came up at the trade deadline that hte C's were interested in (Dudley, Parker, Butler, Wright), I have a hard time believing this wasn't the best trade they could have gotten. You're only saying "we couldn't do better?" because Green hasn't done as well as he supposedly could have.

Those scrubs you mentioned wouldn't have been brought here for Kendrick Perkins.  Those were "nobodies" we could have got for Semih Erden or something.  The point (that everyone here got me to realize) is that Perk is a legit starting center, the best defensive center in the league and the core of our team.  You probably could have landed a Gerald Wallace for him or something if you shopped him around. 

Besides, this wasn't my thought... it was mentioned by Bill Simmons in his podcast.  He has a hard to believing that Jeff Green was the best we could do.  I'm just echoing what he said.

[Eja117]

Bottom line:  Thanks for setting me straight.  TP's for all of you who were on board with Celtic Pride dying weeks before I was.   See you all on May 1st, I guess.  Knicks in Six.

I appreciate your Bill Simmonsesque attempt at a double reverse jinx, but you can have your TP back. I never said Celtic Pride died.   

[PosImpos]

I don't believe this will actually happen, but if the Clippers pick we got turns out to be an out-and-out superstar (it COULD happen . . . Kobe was #13, Nash was #15, Jermaine was #17), would that change the way people see this trade?

Wouldn't the trade be a success, despite everything else, if that pick turns out to be the next great Celtic?


The chances of that happening are slim to none, but it's an amusing hypothetical to consider.

[Eja117]

I don't believe this will actually happen, but if the Clippers pick we got turns out to be an out-and-out superstar (it COULD happen . . . Kobe was #13, Nash was #15, Jermaine was #17), would that change the way people see this trade?

Wouldn't the trade be a success, despite everything else, if that pick turns out to be the next great Celtic?


The chances of that happening are slim to none, but it's an amusing hypothetical to consider.

I was thinking about that today. It would probably need to include a ring, but I'm trying to stay open minded to this