Your Endless Negativity Swayed Me

[Finkelskyhook]

Will you apologize if we fail in the playoffs miserably BudWiser?

Nope. A lot has to happen for me to judge the trade a failure, and losing in the playoffs is the least of it.

+1

There's still going to be a high first round choice to either trade or add. 

The only way this trade looks bad long-term is if Green isn't resigned.  But there was no guaranty we'd have signed Perk.

[LarBrd33]

Will you apologize if we fail in the playoffs miserably BudWiser?

Nope. A lot has to happen for me to judge the trade a failure, and losing in the playoffs is the least of it.

+1

There's still going to be a high first round choice to either trade or add. 

The only way this trade looks bad long-term is if Green isn't resigned.  But there was no guaranty we'd have signed Perk.

I understand your reasoning, because I agreed with it until the smarter people on this forum smacked me back into reality. 

Here's the thing though:  Championships matter.  That first round choice is irrelevant.  Everything I keep hearing leads me to believe that we'll have a lengthy lockout and at the very least KG will not return.  That leaves our window as THIS YEAR.  Granted, I agreed that getting Jeff Green for Perk was good value, but I based that on the idea that Shaq was a lock to play.  Seeing how fragile and questionable Shaq's status has actually been, it makes that trade completely a failure.   As Simmons mentions in his most recent podcast... It doesn't even sound like Ainge shopped Perkins around.  He got shafted by OKC who likes to keep things "hush/hush".  Had he shopped around Perk... maybe you get a better offer... something like Marcus Camby and Rudy Fernandez.  Who knows.  My example is pretty weak.  As the fans on this board have pointed out... Perkins was essentially the MVP our team.  The best defensive center in the league.  An true starting a center.  You're telling me the best we can get for a championship starting center is Jeff Green??  Could you have gotten Oden/Camby and Batum?  I mean.. we're talking KENDRICK Freakin PERKINS here.  He's a stah.  The priority should have been to bring in a guy who could back up Pierce, but also bring in a vet who would give you Shaq-insurance.  Ainge essentially did that by getting Green (pierce back-up) and Krstic (Shaq insurance), but Krstic is a horrible defender.  There might have been better deals out there... 

[Roy H.]

I still can't tell if my good friend LB33 is being serious here or not.  However, I pretty much agree with every point made in the first post, with the exception of one...

It's not over yet.  I personally think our team is weakened, but it's not dead.  There's a lot of pride in at least three of our five starters, and I think the rest of the team is going to come around, as well.  The Celts are going to beat the Knicks, hopefully gain some momentum, and go from there.

[BudweiserCeltic]

Will you apologize if we fail in the playoffs miserably BudWiser?

Nope. A lot has to happen for me to judge the trade a failure, and losing in the playoffs is the least of it.

+1

There's still going to be a high first round choice to either trade or add.  

The only way this trade looks bad long-term is if Green isn't resigned.  But there was no guaranty we'd have signed Perk.

I understand your reasoning, because I agreed with it until the smarter people on this forum smacked me back into reality.  

Here's the thing though:  Championships matter.  That first round choice is irrelevant.  Everything I keep hearing leads me to believe that we'll have a lengthy lockout and at the very least KG will not return.  That leaves our window as THIS YEAR.  Granted, I agreed that getting Jeff Green for Perk was good value, but I based that on the idea that Shaq was a lock to play.  Seeing how fragile and questionable Shaq's status has actually been, it makes that trade completely a failure.   As Simmons mentions in his most recent podcast... It doesn't even sound like Ainge shopped Perkins around.  He got shafted by OKC who likes to keep things "hush/hush".  Had he shopped around Perk... maybe you get a better offer... something like Marcus Camby and Rudy Fernandez.  Who knows.  My example is pretty weak.  As the fans on this board have pointed out... Perkins was essentially the MVP our team.  The best defensive center in the league.  An true starting a center.  You're telling me the best we can get for a championship starting center is Jeff Green??  Could you have gotten Oden/Camby and Batum?  I mean.. we're talking KENDRICK Freakin PERKINS here.  He's a stah.  The priority should have been to bring in a guy who could back up Pierce, but also bring in a vet who would give you Shaq-insurance.  Ainge essentially did that by getting Green (pierce back-up) and Krstic (Shaq insurance), but Krstic is a horrible defender.  There might have been better deals out there...  

Krstic being a horrible defender is an overstatement, and we still have JO in place.

Youre just being influenced by a huge degree by our veterans uninspired play as the season was ending, and I'll throw Rondo in that group. This is nothing new for the Celtics, we've seen this before.

The onus is still on our four main guys showing up to play, if they don't the rest of it is irrelevant.

[LarBrd33]

Bill Simmons:  "This is how the 2011 Red Sox season makes me feel: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EuElJTDR5QM " ...  I second that for the Celtics post-trade.

[Yogi]

I actually liked the trade when it happened.  I thought Perk was overrated.  A big body who plays defense and gets some rebounds.  I loved Jeff Green.  I thought the kid was a stud who was just stuck playing out of position in OKC.  I made giant leaps of logic, claimed he was a future "fringe all-star" and compared his talent level to someone like Danny Granger... saying that had Granger been stuck playing Power Forward full time next to Durant, he would have put up numbers equal to Jeff Green.  I figured we lost very little... and gained a lot for our present and future.  I pointed out that Perk only played 12 games this year and that we were probably a better team with Shaq.  I said that removing Perk solidified Jermaine O'Neal's role... and that now he was going to fully buy into being a Celtic either as a starter or our 6th man.  I was so delusional this year that I actually posted in a thread that I had finally gained respect for Glen Davis.

But an endless stream of negativity from this forum finally swayed me.  I'm here to admit I was wrong.  You're right guys.  Sorry.  I'm was being an idiot homer and looking at things through green-tinted glasses.  Kudos to those of you who argued with me.  You win.  Pat yourselves on the back!

My biggest mistakes:

#1 Shaq -  This entire time I was under the impression that Danny Ainge wasn't a total moron.  The idea that he'd put this team's title hopes on a 39 year old fatty who has a history of missing games was so absurd that I assumed (incorrectly) that Ainge knew something I didn't.  In other words, I thought that Shaq was healthy.  I legitimately thought that the Celtics planned all along that Shaq was going to take most of the regular season off.  I figured it was written in his contract... he's a legend, the regular season essentially is irrelevant and he's a weapon to be saved for the playoffs anyways. If Shaq wanted to take a couple months to film a TV show or something, that was fine.  This entire time I seriously thought that the Celtics had him on some kind of weight-loss and leg-strengthening regimen and that his "injury" was a joke.  I figured we would unleash a "rejuvenated" Shaq on the NBA in the playoffs and destroy the league.  I figured Ainge/Doc saw how well we were playing with Shaq at the start of the season and decided, "you know what... we got this.  Our only real weakness is a backup for Pierce.  Shaq should be starting for us... we are better off with him than Perk... let's save shaq for the playoffs and strengthen our only weakness"....   In other words, I was an idiot.  You guys are right.  Danny Ainge absolutely should be fired at season's end.  It's completely totally moronic... we win the 2010 title with a good big man... so Ainge makes a trade where we end up relying on a 39 year old BROKEN fatty.  I doubt we even see Shaq in the playoffs.  He looks like he can barely walk.  I was stupid to have faith in Celtics management.  It was borderline criminal relying on this fat former Laker.  The basketball gods will have our heads for it. 
  
#2 - Perk ...  I underestimated his value.  I forgot a couple key things.  First, I read a quote from Cliff Ray where he said the best defensive player on the Celtics was Perkins.  You'd figure he'd say KG, but he actually reiterated that Perk was the most important guy out there.  Second, I forgot the numerous quotes from people throughout the league that said that Boston set the best picks out of any team in the league.   Our offense has gone in the tank since Perk left.  Ray can't get open.  Perk is a monster at setting screens and with him (and Shaq) gone, Ray always has two guys on him, Rondo can't get any assists and we have to rely on Rondo bricking a wide-open jumper, driving to the lane and bricking free throws... or tossing it to Glen Davis so he can brick a shot... You guys were right.  I was wrong.  I'm an idiot.  Our 4 all-stars should retroactively be stripped of their "all-star" designations.  Hall-of-Famers or not... they are nothing without Perk.  Playoff fodder for the Knicks (who have no center) or the Heat (who have no center).  That's saying something.    

#3 - Our System/Chemistry -  I said countless times that I wasn't concerned about our end-of-season losses.  It's easy for OKC to fit in Perk.  They just needed a big body.  However, I explained that the Celtics system was intricate and notoriously hard to pick up for newcomers... and that by bringing in 5 new players, we were inevitable heading for a month-long slump while we had what amounted to pre-season.  "You can't expect these guys to play like Celtics the second they get here", I said... With our limited practice time (where the starters weren't even participating), I said that come playoff time we'd be ready.  

Somehow while saying all these things, I was glossing over the first thing I said:  THE CELTICS SYSTEM IS INTRICATE AND NOTORIOUSLY HARD TO PICK UP FOR NEWCOMERS.   Sam Cassell never got it.  Nate RObinson never got it.  I AM AN IDIOT for assuming that these 5 players would get it. You guys were right.  I was wrong.   They look lost out there.  We ran out of time.    

Also, I underestimated how much that trade killed ubuntu and our chemistry.  The Celtics should be angry about choking away game 7 against the Lakers.  That was a winnable game.  Every player/coach on the team should be driven with the goal to get back to the finals and destroy whoever stands in front of them.  Forget the regular season, I figured... these boys have a chip on their shoulders.  Once playoff time comes... look out.  These boys are looking for blood! ....   Unfortunately, I'm an idiot. "These boys" don't exist.  Somehow I neglected to realize that the entire team is different.  Tony, Sheed, Perk, Nate, Quis, Finley, Shelden and Scal are gone.  In replace of them we will expect minutes from JO, Green, Delonte, Krstic and maybe Shaq, Murphy, Arroyo, Sasha, Wafer and Bradley...  Even our mastermind coach is gone (leading the Bulls to the NBA's best record).   The team that got humiliated by the Lakers doesn't exist any more.  This Celtics team has no more of a "chip" on it's shoulder than the Heat do with LeBron (who got humiliated by the Celtics last year).   You guys win.  


#4 - Jeff Green -  Wow.  Shows flashes, but bricks half his shots.  Looks completely uncomfortable.  Looks lost on defense.  Shows no aggression.  I expected "Rondo-To-Green" to be a common sight, but Jeff Shows none of the explosive high-flying finishing I thought he had.  I thought he'd be a defensive stopper for the Brons/Kobes... but I'm not seeing that out of him at all.  He's put up some stats and I figure he'll be part of our core next year when KG and Ray retire and the Celtics are lottery-bound... but I have to admit that you guys were right once again.  Jeff Green is a 7th man on this team.  We traded a starting center for a nobody.  His only value at this point is basically "Paul Pierce insurance"... and if we ever need to use "Paul Pierce" insurance, we're toast anyways.  I clearly don't know enough about the NBA outside of Boston.  I was dead wrong on this kid.  You guys swayed me.

#5 -  Obese (Glen Davis) - He's a fat loser.  How the heck does this guy continue to get fatter while playing for a championship caliber team?  I saw him shirtless in the latest episode of "The Assocation" standing next to a shirtless Ray Allen and it's a freakin embarrassment.  Too many pancakes, not enough focus.  He did look pretty good early on in the season as a backup, but I guess my mind was clouded by all the Shaq-fueled early-season dominance.  Reiterating what I've said about "Obese" for years... he is only as good as his teammates.  Not a great defender.  Pretty poor rebounder.  Poor finisher.  Hits some wide open shots.   It's not all Glen's fault.  Team's have found a way to exploit the Celtics by making them "live and die" with Glen Davis jumpers.  When he makes them, he's a hero.  When he doesn't, he looks like the bench-warming role player he's destined to become.  No need to beat a dead horse here.  I'm back on the bandwagon... Glen Davis is a bum



Bottom line:  Thanks for setting me straight.  TP's for all of you who were on board with Celtic Pride dying weeks before I was.  I look forward to our lively debates in the offseason where we will argue over who should replace Ainge/Rivers and who will fill the void left by KG and Ray.    See you all on May 1st, I guess.  Knicks in Six.

Sigh
1.  Shaq was NEVER key to winning the championship.  JO is the one that was brought in to fill in the void left by Perk when he was out with the injury.  Shaq basically volunteered to join this team as a role player.  As much as I love Perk and wish him the best, right now JO is better than Perk in every way.  Shaq is sacrificing his body to help us get a ring when he could happily retire and enjoy his millions of dollars.  He has held down the fort beginning of the year and earned his pay check five times over.  You know he's getting paid 1 million for this entire season right?  Every minute he's been on the floor he's been the player with the most hustle.  A 40 year old starting for a NBA contender.

2.  This is ridiculous.  Now Perk's picks are what makes our offense run?  First, what an insult to Ray Allen.  Second, how many fouls were called on Perk for the 25 min he's out there for setting screens?

3.  That's right.  Chemistry is not built overnight, especially without practice time.  The new guys have improved consistently and we will see them play much better in the play offs.  How about giving them some time to figure it out?  You know what is killing ubuntu, how about fans giving up on their team when they are struggling a little bit?

4.  You are spot on.  Jeff Green is bricking half his shots.  He's shooting exactly 50%.  Check the stats.  The guy has been spectacular.  By the way, Backup is different from Insurance.  You need a back up when Pierce rests.  Pavlovic is our insurance.  

5.  He's a 6'8 guy asked to defend 7 footers every day.  He needs to be heavy enough so they don't push right through him.  The guy is in unbelievable shape.  He's only behind Odom as the 6th man of the year.  He's improved every stat this year.  He's the only guy that Doc and Danny has kept along with the big 4, and the only one that Doc trusts to close out games, even when Perk was still with us.  He is an amazing finisher, finishing constantly among the trees.  The guy hits big shot after big shot.  I feel sorry for the Celtics that we the fans can't appreciate what an unbelievable job they have done this year.  

Come on guys, put your differences aside and root for our team with all your heart.  The playoffs are here!!!!!  It's all about 18

[ballin]

Alright so obviously the original poster is trolling. (do we allow these types of threads?)

The sad part is a lot of what was said is true.

[moiso]

JO was signed before Shaq for a larger salary, but Shaq is far more important than JO at this point.  We have no physical presences left other than Shaq.  It's obvious that Shaq is the only one who can fill the void left by Perk.  JO plays better defense than Shaq, but Shaq is the presence that we need.  It's not the same thing.  Shaq is a physical tough guy like Perk... an enforcer.  JO can play excellent defense but it's more of a KG style defense.  We need KG and a thug.  JO, Baby, and Kristic don't fit that description.  Shaq is an intimidator whether he can move his feet or not.

[moiso]

Alright so obviously the original poster is trolling. (do we allow these types of threads?)

The sad part is a lot of what was said is true.

He's not trolling.

[aporel#18]

I see all the negativity as a defense mechanism. But there's a lot of knowledgeable fans around here that have chosen that approach. That's fine with me, but it bothers me how people try to find a scapegoat.

A team is something complex, everything counts but is funnier or easier to put the blame on Danny, Doc, Baby, Green, Nenad, Rondo, Ray, the Captain, even KG or Ed Lacerte.

The Celtics can win it all this year, even Without Shaq. But Shaq will play when they need him. Danny and Doc are not morons, Rondo is waiting for the playoffs... someone has to compensate the overnegative weight, right?

TP for the OP, we just need 16 wins.

Go Celtics!!!

[mmbaby]

TP to Yogi.

This OP is negativity at it's best. And I totally disagree with everything OP said.

I prefer to be placed in the 'love my team' category and am tired of having to defend them.

[bbd24]

sorta what I guessed

There would be no apology necessary.  Just because you lose a 20 min per game player doesn't mean your done and dead.

Your core 4 play up to their ability then the rest of the teams, Bulls included, have no shot whatsoever in the East.  Bottom line.  It was that way with Perk, or without him.  Doesn't matter.

[GreenFaith1819]

Yogi - Good Post and thanks.

[csfansince60s]

What "team"?  The only "team" to speak of is our 4 fake all-stars (who are apparently nothing without Perk) and some fat kid who bricks jumpers.  The rest of that "team" is long gone.

First, it was KG especially, but all of the 4 all-stars, who made Perk what he was, not the other way around.

Second, BBD is a lot more than some "fat kid who bricks jumpers". He will bring those other things that made him the 2nd best 6th man in the league, prior to the slump, to the playoffs or KG will make him cry again on national TV .

Third, we lost an injured Marquis, an injured Erden, an injured Nate a useless Harangody along with a then injured Perk who was coming off of major knee surgery after an intensive, shortened rehab, only to get injured again.
Replacing those folk, we got DWest back, Arroyo (a true backup pg), Jeff Green who was a starter on a playoff bound club playing out of position to backup the 3 (Pierce needed this big-time) and the 4 and 2 in spots to give us versatility and headiness, Kristic (an adequate 2nd 5 and a very good 3rd 5) along with Troy Murphy and a rejuvenated JO, who, if he remains healthy, gives us more overall than Perk did.

We are better now position by position than we were before the trade. I guess the real question is "Are we a better team?" That remains to be seen.

P.S. LarBird33, did you reallygo over to the dark side (pessimism-wise) and figuratively only, or is this just a joke?

[Marcus13]

It isn't your fault, Danny had earned a lot of trust over the last few years so we didn't expect him to make such a massive mistake.

I still think we beat the Knicks, though