Bill Simmons on the Celtics, Thunder

[BballTim]

as much as i sometimes despise Simmons barely hidden love affair with Kobe and the Lakers, he does have an amazing ability to articulate exactly what we have been watching as Celtics fans, but have been unable to put into words ........... unfortunately, i cannot disagree with his analysis of what has transpired since the trade deadline.

he summed up my pain and anger perfectly with this article ....

"In retrospect, Danny Ainge should have just flown the whole team to Dallas, crammed the players into a limo, had them do the turn around at Dealey Plaza and just started shooting at them from the Grassy Knoll. "

i just cannot sufficiently describe my anger at Danny Ainge right now - probably why i post on this blog so often recently about my frustration with somethiong that has caused me as much pain as i can remember since we lost Lenny Bias.

it's been easy to forget Danny's schizophrenic management style that preceded the relative stability of the past four seasons. back then, Danny constantly changed his mind about what kind of team he was building and made frequent trades that reflected his latest ideas, even though those trades often directly conflicted with personnel decisions he had made just a few months before. since the arrival of Ray Ray and KG, it's like Ainge has had to constantly supress his natural urge to tinker with his team, so when he did finally make a move, he went all out and destroyed our team with both barrels.

you do realize all of danny's dealings were to get enough pieces to cash in for ray and KG, right? the stability of the past 4 years is due to danny's wheeling and dealing to try and get out of an absolutely horrid situation. i mean, honestly, we were so screwed talent-wise and financially when he took over. i don't think people remember how bad the situation was.

It's off-topic, but I don't think the bolded part above is true.  I agree with T_S that a lot of Danny's early moves didn't have a lot of direction.  For instance, look at the first two Antoine deals.  In the first, he sent Antoine off for an injured player on a long-term contract plus other assorted "chips"; in the second, he gave up a "chip" for a three-month rental of Antoine.  First he wanted Ricky and gave Mark Blount a bad contract; then he decided he didn't want either Ricky or Blount, and traded them for an injured Wally and his bad contract. 

  I don't think Danny's trading was as schizophrenic as you make it out to be. He was building assets/upgrading talent with most of his trades. You're acting like Ricky Davis was meant to be a long term piece for the Celts. I don't think that was ever the case.

Danny was able to recover from these moves, and finally settled on the "all in" philosophy, but I refuse to believe that the Raef or Wally deals were made with an eye toward adding KG and Ray.  I mean, the cost of turning Raef into Theo Ratliff was Brandon Roy / Rudy Gay.  That's not exactly a genius move.  Yes, shedding Raef's contract was necessary to acquire KG and Danny gets credit for understanding that, but at the same time if he hadn't gambled and lost on Raef in the first place, he wouldn't have had to move an asset.

  Trading for Raef was probably a mistake, but turning Raef into Theo *was* a genius move.

[Roy H.]

as much as i sometimes despise Simmons barely hidden love affair with Kobe and the Lakers, he does have an amazing ability to articulate exactly what we have been watching as Celtics fans, but have been unable to put into words ........... unfortunately, i cannot disagree with his analysis of what has transpired since the trade deadline.

he summed up my pain and anger perfectly with this article ....

"In retrospect, Danny Ainge should have just flown the whole team to Dallas, crammed the players into a limo, had them do the turn around at Dealey Plaza and just started shooting at them from the Grassy Knoll. "

i just cannot sufficiently describe my anger at Danny Ainge right now - probably why i post on this blog so often recently about my frustration with somethiong that has caused me as much pain as i can remember since we lost Lenny Bias.

it's been easy to forget Danny's schizophrenic management style that preceded the relative stability of the past four seasons. back then, Danny constantly changed his mind about what kind of team he was building and made frequent trades that reflected his latest ideas, even though those trades often directly conflicted with personnel decisions he had made just a few months before. since the arrival of Ray Ray and KG, it's like Ainge has had to constantly supress his natural urge to tinker with his team, so when he did finally make a move, he went all out and destroyed our team with both barrels.

you do realize all of danny's dealings were to get enough pieces to cash in for ray and KG, right? the stability of the past 4 years is due to danny's wheeling and dealing to try and get out of an absolutely horrid situation. i mean, honestly, we were so screwed talent-wise and financially when he took over. i don't think people remember how bad the situation was.

It's off-topic, but I don't think the bolded part above is true.  I agree with T_S that a lot of Danny's early moves didn't have a lot of direction.  For instance, look at the first two Antoine deals.  In the first, he sent Antoine off for an injured player on a long-term contract plus other assorted "chips"; in the second, he gave up a "chip" for a three-month rental of Antoine.  First he wanted Ricky and gave Mark Blount a bad contract; then he decided he didn't want either Ricky or Blount, and traded them for an injured Wally and his bad contract. 

  I don't think Danny's trading was as schizophrenic as you make it out to be. He was building assets/upgrading talent with most of his trades. You're acting like Ricky Davis was meant to be a long term piece for the Celts. I don't think that was ever the case.

Eh...  "building assets/upgrading talent", by trading Ricky for Wally and his bad contract?  He made that trade because he mistakenly gave Blount a terrible contract.  In terms of schizophrenic deals, giving up a #1 pick for Antoine seemed -- and still seems -- contrary to the stated goal of acquiring "chips".   That pick later became Rajon Rondo, and we were lucky enough to get it back by giving up another 1st rounder.

I guess reasonable minds can disagree, but I don't think for a minute that Danny had some master plan from the beginning.  He had shifting philosophies, and as late as the 2007 lottery he was thinking of continuing to rebuild through the draft.  Danny created some flexibility for the team, and adjusted to the "win now" strategy extremely well, but if we'd landed the #1 pick in that draft we would have drafted Greg Oden.  Under those circumstances, Danny looks less like a "genius" for trading Rudy Gay / Brandon Roy for Sebastian Telfair and contract flexibility, and more like a fool.

It's all relative.  Danny is a good GM, and he brought us a championship that nobody thought we'd win this soon.  However, his plan absolutely has shifted.

[BballTim]

I guess reasonable minds can disagree, but I don't think for a minute that Danny had some master plan from the beginning.  He had shifting philosophies, and as late as the 2007 lottery he was thinking of continuing to rebuild through the draft.  Danny created some flexibility for the team, and adjusted to the "win now" strategy extremely well, but if we'd landed the #1 pick in that draft we would have drafted Greg Oden.  Under those circumstances, Danny looks less like a "genius" for trading Rudy Gay / Brandon Roy for Sebastian Telfair and contract flexibility, and more like a fool.

  He did claim to have a "master plan" from the beginning, which he generally stuck to although every single move didn't necessarily go along with that. He traded a pick for Antoine when we probably had Perk, Al, Delonte, Tony and 2-3 future firsts. It was no big loss. And I'm pretty sure there were runors that Danny wanted Durant. We could have had a lineup of Rondo/PP/Durant/Al/Perk or he still could have done the KG deal and had a lineup of Rondo/PP/Durant/KG/Perk. He had the flexibility to put the team in a good position no matter what happened in the lottery. Even after losing the lottery he was able to trade for Ray and KG while keeping enough talent on the roster to become instant contenders.

[gpap]

I've lost all hope for this season. And with the Heat and Miami out there I've lost all hope for years to come.

Come to talk to me in June after the Celtics have won the title.

[European NBA fan]

I guess reasonable minds can disagree, but I don't think for a minute that Danny had some master plan from the beginning.  He had shifting philosophies, and as late as the 2007 lottery he was thinking of continuing to rebuild through the draft.  Danny created some flexibility for the team, and adjusted to the "win now" strategy extremely well, but if we'd landed the #1 pick in that draft we would have drafted Greg Oden.  Under those circumstances, Danny looks less like a "genius" for trading Rudy Gay / Brandon Roy for Sebastian Telfair and contract flexibility, and more like a fool.

  He did claim to have a "master plan" from the beginning, which he generally stuck to although every single move didn't necessarily go along with that. He traded a pick for Antoine when we probably had Perk, Al, Delonte, Tony and 2-3 future firsts. It was no big loss. And I'm pretty sure there were runors that Danny wanted Durant. We could have had a lineup of Rondo/PP/Durant/Al/Perk or he still could have done the KG deal and had a lineup of Rondo/PP/Durant/KG/Perk. He had the flexibility to put the team in a good position no matter what happened in the lottery. Even after losing the lottery he was able to trade for Ray and KG while keeping enough talent on the roster to become instant contenders.

One of the former minority owners said the same thing. The 2007 rebuild was a couple of years in the making.

[Kuberski33]

About the Bulls...teams that make a big regular season jump rarely succeed in the playoffs in Year 1.  Playoffs are a whole different ballgame because of adjustments and other than Rose, the Bulls can be defended.

That's the Celtics hope.  I just think we have too many flaws right now to take advantage - unless the O'Neal's can stay on the court.

[tenn_smoothie]

"Probably the greatest team in the modern era, the 95-96 Bulls, had some great players who were tough.  But none of them were bigger than 6-8 (Jordan, Pippen, Rodman).  Their tallest rotation guys were Longley, Kukoc, and Wennington - none known for toughness.  Clearly, that was an immensely talented team, who had a clear identity which revolved around Jordan and Pippen"

the greatest team in the modern era was the 1986 Celtics, no contest - they would have mopped the floor with any of Jordan's teams from the 90's.

we don't have 6-7/6-8 athletic, tough defenders & rebounders on this team. jeff green was supposed to be, but he looks more depressed and lost with each game.

my contention that the Perk trade gutted this team is not based on some belief that Perk was the best player or that Pierce, Allen and Garnett are lesser players or anything like that. my point is that the Celtics, more than any other team this season, had a togetherness both in playing style and in emotional motivation that was a sum of all of them and that intangible was what set them apart from the other contenders.

the playing style was one of defense and physical toughness first and everything else second. yes, we struggled on offense sometimes, but this group has always done that. i remember cringing watching them on offense at times during the championship season in '08. they have never had a style that led to a lot of easy baskets. they won that title by playing the best defense the league has seen in years and that's the only way this group will win another title.

the emotional togetherness came from being together these past four seasons and going thru everything that they have as a group, including winning a title, losing KG to injury but fighting to defend their championship anyway. it came from the dissension of last year when Rondo was fighting the vets to find his new place in the team's pecking order -  and it especially came from the loss of game 7 last year, the pain they endured all summer, much of which was carried by Perk himself because of the game 6 injury. i believe that this team wanted to avenge that loss  and win another championship together as much as any team in league history. i really believe that.

then Danny took all that away from them in one day. Perk was a huge part of that togetherness - and championships are won with those kind of intangibles. that's why losing him has done so much damage - not because he was so talented that they can't replace him, but because he was such an important piece of this team greatest strengths - chemistry, togetherness and defense. they have not been the same team since he was traded and i don't see how they can recover.

Danny is a fool for not understanding his team better.

[indeedproceed]

And I'm pretty sure there were runors that Danny wanted Durant.

There were rumors to that effect, but I'm also about 90% sure that in the past 2 years or so Doc Rivers has stated pretty clearly that the Celtics would've taken Oden.

But the Celtics, despite having the second-worst record in the league, slipped to No. 5 in the lottery. They flipped the pick for Ray Allen, which helped lure Kevin Garnett, and the franchise’s 17th title soon followed. Had the Celtics landed the No. 1 pick, Rivers said, Oden would have been the choice.

“Even though everybody changes now, we were all for Oden, and I think 98 percent of the league,’’ Rivers said. “But now I hear it all over our staff, I hear it everywhere, ‘Oh, no, we were Durant guys.’ I don’t believe that. I think we would have drafted Oden.’’

[greenpride32]

How many times must it be said, Kendrick Perkins played TWELVE games for the Celtics this season. We were really, really good without him. The X factor is going to be Shaq. If he's healthy, I like our chances.

like many Celtic fans, you just don't get it.

it's not about the games he did and didn't play in - when are you guys gonna understand that - how much more evidence do you need ?

Perk was on the team last year and healthy when we went 27-27 down the stretch.  This team has proven it could collapse with Perkins.  So if he was the all important glue of the team how could he have let that happen?

When a team is not playing well or at expectations people are always going to look for reasons or excuses and using Perk is just the easy answer this year.

The C's reeled out 5 straight wins after the trade and were playing greating before tanking it.  I'm not counting the DEN game the day of the trade since we were incredibly short handed and lost that one.

[Kuberski1]

"Probably the greatest team in the modern era, the 95-96 Bulls, had some great players who were tough.  But none of them were bigger than 6-8 (Jordan, Pippen, Rodman).  Their tallest rotation guys were Longley, Kukoc, and Wennington - none known for toughness.  Clearly, that was an immensely talented team, who had a clear identity which revolved around Jordan and Pippen"

the greatest team in the modern era was the 1986 Celtics, no contest - they would have mopped the floor with any of Jordan's teams from the 90's.

we don't have 6-7/6-8 athletic, tough defenders & rebounders on this team. jeff green was supposed to be, but he looks more depressed and lost with each game.

my contention that the Perk trade gutted this team is not based on some belief that Perk was the best player or that Pierce, Allen and Garnett are lesser players or anything like that. my point is that the Celtics, more than any other team this season, had a togetherness both in playing style and in emotional motivation that was a sum of all of them and that intangible was what set them apart from the other contenders.

I loved that '86 Celtics team, as they were terrific, but I think that the '96 Bulls were better.  Agree to disagree....but my point was there are many types of rosters which can win.  I, for one, believe we have enough talent on this roster to win this year.  As I stated before, I think the ultimate question, especially for the new guys, is how bad do they want it, and how hard are they willing to fight for it. 

I don't doubt that team chemistry has been affected for the worse.  But that fact is that the Cs played very well with a 38 year old Shaq in the first few months of the season - and this is a guy who had been with the team all of one month of training camp.   

The trade will ultimately be judged in months, if not years.  Now, it doesn't look good.  After the season ends, the verdict may well be the same, though perhaps not...           

[aporel#18]

"Probably the greatest team in the modern era, the 95-96 Bulls, had some great players who were tough.  But none of them were bigger than 6-8 (Jordan, Pippen, Rodman).  Their tallest rotation guys were Longley, Kukoc, and Wennington - none known for toughness.  Clearly, that was an immensely talented team, who had a clear identity which revolved around Jordan and Pippen"

the greatest team in the modern era was the 1986 Celtics, no contest - they would have mopped the floor with any of Jordan's teams from the 90's.

TP, I agree and had Bias not passed away, they would have mopped the floor with the Bad Boys also.

I disagree about Danny not knowing his team. Danny has sent a message to Rondo and BBD with that trade.

BBD will have to find the money elsewhere, or accept lowball offer from the Celtics. I believe it will be the latter, because Davis will be the best 6th man in the league when he accepts his role.

Rondo is the Celtics best player, but this isn't Rondo's team, this is Danny's team. We've seen Rondo through all the stages of grief, but he will finally step up when every game counts. If I'm not mistaken, Rondo has been qualified by Doc, Ray and others as one of the highest BBIQs they've been around. Rondo is a player for the ages, and IMO he's this age's Bob Cousy. And Danny is looking for this age's Bill Russell. We all loved Perk, but he's not the next Bill Russell.

Danny's trades are basically gutsy gambles, and sometimes the outcome is "turrible", but he's thinking very BIG. I can't wait to see what's next in the building of another contending team.

What I don't understand is people saying Danny has thrown  the chance to win the Championship. This roster is way better (even without Shaq) than last year's, and IF nothing extremely negative happens (knock on wood), the playoff rotation this year will be one of the best in Celtics history.

Go Celtics!!!

[bbd24]

Does Bill still think Rays ankles won't hold up ? Or is he passed that now 3-4 yrs in ?

[Onslaught]

I've lost all hope for this season. And with the Heat and Miami out there I've lost all hope for years to come.

Come to talk to me in June after the Celtics have won the title.

I'll PM you in fact. But if my feelings about this team turn out to be true will you come and talk to me before June?

[bbd24]

Aporel, that's just it. People complain regardless. The roster is stacked. How do you complain when your 2nd string consists of guys like West, Green, BBD, J. O'neal, and Krstic ? All could start in this league and your still complaining about the roster, or losing Perkins ? Man, take a better look at rosters around the league, then try and complain. Open up those eyes.

[Onslaught]

Aporel, that's just it. People complain regardless. The roster is stacked. How do you complain when your 2nd string consists of guys like West, Green, BBD, J. O'neal, and Krstic ? All could start in this league and your still complaining about the roster, or losing Perkins ? Man, take a better look at rosters around the league, then try and complain. Open up those eyes.

If they played well together then it be great. But I haven't seen anything to make me think it's working well. On paper only takes you so far.