Do we blow it all up next year?

[Celtics18]

I hope Ray seriously considers retirement.

wouldn't an off-season trade be preferable?

[PosImpos]

There will be a lockout next season, so no.  But the season after that, yes.  At that point, it will be time to rebuild.

How can you be so sure there will be a lockout?

As somebody else mentioned, all of the experts have said it's pretty much a guaranteed thing.  We'll be lucky to have a season at all next year.  I'm guessing we'll have one that is about one third as long.  Ideally that favors the Celtics.  We'll see.

After next season, it's time to start pretty much from square one, except we'll have Pierce around for another couple years.  He'll get to retire with a lot of fanfare as the last remaining member of the Big 3 still playing, and he'll probably still be the team's leading scorer.

[Who]

Summer of 2012 = decision time

[CFAN38]

winners breed winning, the Cs need to keep adding young talent (like green) to our veteran core. I would hope to see a team in transition being a tough out in the playoffs rather then a very young team trying to figure out how to get in the playoffs. The Cs have rondo and green so the future of the 1 and 3 spots are set. I would like to c the cs keep ray and paul around a couple more years playing less minutes every year (reggie miller style). Ideal situation kg sticks around with ray and paul and we can bring in a 6'9+ athletic pf to develop under kg.

[More Banners]

I hope Ray seriously considers retirement.

Why?

It just seems like Ray is fading fast to "role player" status, and as a shooter/3pt specialist, he is grossly overpaid at $10 million.  He also doesn't shoot many 3's for someone in that role.  Going to the hoop, he seems to have lost something, and that thing is often the ball.

With the second unit, one can't even tell he's a star out there on the court.

I love Ray, but he's looking like it's time.

[Celtics18]

I hope Ray seriously considers retirement.

Why?

It just seems like Ray is fading fast to "role player" status, and as a shooter/3pt specialist, he is grossly overpaid at $10 million.  He also doesn't shoot many 3's for someone in that role.  Going to the hoop, he seems to have lost something, and that thing is often the ball.

With the second unit, one can't even tell he's a star out there on the court.

I love Ray, but he's looking like it's time.

Ray's got one more year on his contract, and I'm sure he'll want to play it out.  I'd much rather try to get some young talent for him in a trade than see him straight up retire. 

[More Banners]

I hope Ray seriously considers retirement.

Why?

It just seems like Ray is fading fast to "role player" status, and as a shooter/3pt specialist, he is grossly overpaid at $10 million.  He also doesn't shoot many 3's for someone in that role.  Going to the hoop, he seems to have lost something, and that thing is often the ball.

With the second unit, one can't even tell he's a star out there on the court.

I love Ray, but he's looking like it's time.

Ray's got one more year on his contract, and I'm sure he'll want to play it out.  I'd much rather try to get some young talent for him in a trade than see him straight up retire.  

Well of course, though I doubt there are many teams looking to give up young talent for the priviledge of paying Ray $10 million next year.  Perhaps the "trade and retire" option would be possible, with a draft pick or two to go with Ray's $10 mil as matching salary?  

But there aren't many young players making $10 million, and there aren't many $10 million players that a team would be willing to give up for (essentially) picks in a salary dump to begin with, and to find one that would fit the rest of the C's roster would be near impossible.  The only things I could think of would be someone like Biedrins, who I wouldn't take, or Okafor, who NO wouldn't trade for picks.  The other teams are trying to get better, too, after all.

Either way, it's time.

[Chief]

I'd like to see Ray be a 6th man. I love what Memphis is doing with TA and Mayo. Not sure who we could sign and start at the 2/3. Tayshaun Prince?

[JBcat]

I hope Ray seriously considers retirement.

Why?

It just seems like Ray is fading fast to "role player" status, and as a shooter/3pt specialist, he is grossly overpaid at $10 million.  He also doesn't shoot many 3's for someone in that role.  Going to the hoop, he seems to have lost something, and that thing is often the ball.

With the second unit, one can't even tell he's a star out there on the court.

I love Ray, but he's looking like it's time.

Ray's got one more year on his contract, and I'm sure he'll want to play it out.  I'd much rather try to get some young talent for him in a trade than see him straight up retire.  

Well of course, though I doubt there are many teams looking to give up young talent for the priviledge of paying Ray $10 million next year.  Perhaps the "trade and retire" option would be possible, with a draft pick or two to go with Ray's $10 mil as matching salary?  

But there aren't many young players making $10 million, and there aren't many $10 million players that a team would be willing to give up for (essentially) picks in a salary dump to begin with, and to find one that would fit the rest of the C's roster would be near impossible.  The only things I could think of would be someone like Biedrins, who I wouldn't take, or Okafor, who NO wouldn't trade for picks.  The other teams are trying to get better, too, after all.

Either way, it's time.

I think people are overreacting with Ray.  He is having one of his most efficient seasons of his career.  He is just having a little speed bump with a slump.  It happens to him every year.  There aren't too many shooting guards I've rather have at this point in time than Ray.   I see no reason why he can't be a very effective player like a Steve Nash and Grant Hill for at least a couple more seasons.  

What I'd prefer is to get a legit superstar by using our assets, Davis, Green, the Clippers 1st found pick, even Bradley and Krstic whatever it takes.  Then have that said superstar along with Rondo be the main forces on our team with KG, Paul, and Ray taking on more secondary roles and eventually retiring as Celtics.  I think we could possibly extend our run as a contending team if that happens.  Howard I think would be ideal but there could be other options out there.  

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I think people are overreacting with Ray.  He is having one of his most efficient seasons of his career.  He is just having a little speed bump with a slump.  It happens to him every year.  There aren't too many shooting guards I've rather have at this point in time than Ray.   I see no reason why he can't be a very effective player like a Steve Nash and Grant Hill for at least a couple more seasons.  

What I'd prefer is to get a legit superstar by using our assets, Davis, Green, the Clippers 1st found pick, even Bradley and Krstic whatever it takes.  Then have that said superstar along with Rondo be the main forces on our team with KG, Paul, and Ray taking on more secondary roles and eventually retiring as Celtics.  I think we could possibly extend our run as a contending team if that happens.  Howard I think would be ideal but there could be other options out there.  

I think the area that this team, the starters, I mean, are really showing their age is in rebounds and loose balls.  I see Ray as a surprisingly good 1 on 1 defender, but I don't see any, ANY, energy/hustle plays, beating everyone to loose balls, or even going after loose balls.  Losing a step, or being a touch slower to react, affects this area as well, and it doesn't show up in the box score, but impacts the game.

I know it's blasphemy, but "intangibles" aside, what does Ray provide now that West or even Wafer (both minimum contract players) can't do?

With regard to trading crap for a superstar, there aren't many teams in the position that the Sonics and T-Wolves were in when we traded scraps and prospects for Ray and KG.  And BBD is going to walk as a FA, and isn't in S&T territory.  S&T's tend to happen with players above the MLE when a team resigns itself to getting somethign, nearly anything, back.  BBD won't get more than the MLE, and a team will just sign him.

With Jeff Green, our best option, most likely, is to lock that guy up.

[JBcat]

I think people are overreacting with Ray.  He is having one of his most efficient seasons of his career.  He is just having a little speed bump with a slump.  It happens to him every year.  There aren't too many shooting guards I've rather have at this point in time than Ray.   I see no reason why he can't be a very effective player like a Steve Nash and Grant Hill for at least a couple more seasons.   

What I'd prefer is to get a legit superstar by using our assets, Davis, Green, the Clippers 1st found pick, even Bradley and Krstic whatever it takes.  Then have that said superstar along with Rondo be the main forces on our team with KG, Paul, and Ray taking on more secondary roles and eventually retiring as Celtics.  I think we could possibly extend our run as a contending team if that happens.  Howard I think would be ideal but there could be other options out there. 

I think the area that this team, the starters, I mean, are really showing their age is in rebounds and loose balls.  I see Ray as a surprisingly good 1 on 1 defender, but I don't see any, ANY, energy/hustle plays, beating everyone to loose balls, or even going after loose balls.  Losing a step, or being a touch slower to react, affects this area as well, and it doesn't show up in the box score, but impacts the game.

I know it's blasphemy, but "intangibles" aside, what does Ray provide now that West or even Wafer (both minimum contract players) can't do?

With regard to trading crap for a superstar, there aren't many teams in the position that the Sonics and T-Wolves were in when we traded scraps and prospects for Ray and KG.  And BBD is going to walk as a FA, and isn't in S&T territory.  S&T's tend to happen with players above the MLE when a team resigns itself to getting somethign, nearly anything, back.  BBD won't get more than the MLE, and a team will just sign him.

With Jeff Green, our best option, most likely, is to lock that guy up.

You really think West or Wafer can fill Ray's role.  Ray's averages across the board are 16.8 PPG, 3.4 RPG, 2.7 APG, .99 SPG( shows he has active hands and disputes he is slower to react), shooting .490 from the field and .452 from 3 point land.   I don't see West or Wafer coming ever close to filling that role.   Even if West could come close to filling that role then you would have a gaping hole at back PG which is where I like him.  Ray Allen this season is providing much more than intangibles this season.  Yes he has struggled lately but we shouldn't go overboard in my opinion. 

KG, Paul, and even Ray slightly are rebounding the ball better than last season.  I don't see rebounding a problem with them.   I do see a problem with only a 3 big rotation at the moment and recently with Davis playing too many minutes.  I think Green could be hurting us by playing out of position at PF against certain players.  If we have at least a 4 big rotation with Green playing primarily the at the SF spot I think we'll be in much better shape.

I also think some nagging injuries aside from the obvious ones hurt us a little with Rondo fighting some injuries, Davis sitting out a couple games, West with the ankle injury and so on.

You might be right with the S & T possibilities with Davis but who knows what the new landscape with look like with a new CBA.  I hope Danny does not let Davis go and get nothing in return.  A hard cap could mean teams going nowhere with a star player could be looking to start over.  It will be interesting to see how it plays out.   

[Jon]

A few things:

1) I think it's unlikely Ray or KG retires.  They'd both be walking away from a ton of money.  And if they do win #18, the temptation to win #19 will be strong (2 titles is impressive, 3 titles with a first ballot Hall of Fame career gets you put into some very exclusive conversations).  If they fall short, I see them wanting to give it one last go, especially if next season is short. 

2) I think we potentially have the surrounding talent to rest KG and Ray (and Paul) next year more.  If Doc figures out his rotations better, West, Green, and Baby could all play closer to 25 mpg+ and really take the burden off of these guys without losing a ton on the floor. 

3) I think the biggest question is whether we actually gain anything from "blowing it up."  As I was saying to someone else the other day, who exactly is going to want an aging Kevin Garnett, Ray Allen, or Jermaine O'Neal?  Bad teams will have no interest, since none of those player can make a bad team a contender.  Borderline teams like the Knicks, Sixers, and Hawks could be interested, but what are they really going to give us?  If they give up any of their young stars, the trade won't make it enough of an upgrade on their end to make it worthwhile and most of their draft picks will fall in a fairly unimpressive range. 

Ultimately, I think the C's are likely going to be better served clearing cap space when these guys retire and then looking to bring people in. 

So I think regardless of your confidence level about next year and regardless of what happens this season, this crew is coming back for one last hurrah next year. 

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It's true that Ray's numbers are nearly identical to last season.  I still think the thing that is in decline is the thing that young players just "do" that older players don't, and some veterans "pick their spots" to do to save energy.  Ray, and the team generally, is picking it's spots, playing great ball against the Spurs, and trying to coast against "lesser" teams.

West vs. Ray is no contest, but in the context of team ball,  West offers things that the team needs, without giving up much that Ray offers.  West can spread the floor, too, but would offer more steals (75% more per 36) and blocks, suggesting a "scrappyness" that the team lacks in the increasingly common lethargic outings.  Of course, he's a huge injury risk and all that, but the point being that there are really good players taking the minimum that have a lot to offer, and Ray can't make it on his name.

I guess what I'm working around to is that the starting unit needs an energy guy and doesn't seem to have one.

[Jon]

It's true that Ray's numbers are nearly identical to last season.  I still think the thing that is in decline is the thing that young players just "do" that older players don't, and some veterans "pick their spots" to do to save energy.  Ray, and the team generally, is picking it's spots, playing great ball against the Spurs, and trying to coast against "lesser" teams.

West vs. Ray is no contest, but in the context of team ball,  West offers things that the team needs, without giving up much that Ray offers.  West can spread the floor, too, but would offer more steals (75% more per 36) and blocks, suggesting a "scrappyness" that the team lacks in the increasingly common lethargic outings.  Of course, he's a huge injury risk and all that, but the point being that there are really good players taking the minimum that have a lot to offer, and Ray can't make it on his name.

I guess what I'm working around to is that the starting unit needs an energy guy and doesn't seem to have one.

While I certainly don't think West is better than Ray, I do think that next year is West stays healthy, Doc could begin to let Delonte take some of Ray's minutes.  And I think that's how we could get another good, productive year out of Ray.  I think the biggest problem right now is that Doc keeps running Ray into the ground. 

Next year I'd love to see something like this:

PG - Rondo 36 mpg, West 12 mpg
SG - Ray 28 mpg, West 13 mpg, PP 7
SF - PP 23 mpg, Green 25 mpg
PF - KG 28 mpg, BBD 20 mpg
C - some sort of mix of the O'Neals and potentially Krstic and whoever else we may sign mixed in with splash minutes of KG to get BBD and/or Green more minutes at the 4. 

[LooseCannon]

Ray Allen is difficult to trade because he has a player option for next season and a trade kicker.  His contract is basically designed to make it a bit harder to trade him.  Paul Pierce might have a no-trade clause.

If you want to blow up the team, it probably means trading KG as an expiring $20 million contract and possibly trading Rondo.