More Green, less Baby

[Who]

See, I look at playing KG at the 5 a waste most of the time. He's way more effective at the 4, so playing Green there takes away from him.

Kevin Garnett is very effective at the five. His quickness and jump-shooting ability makes him an even tougher matchup offensively than at the four.

It also gives the Celtics an opportunity to put far more quickness on the floor + jump shooting to space the floor which allows them to better take advantage in transition, off dribble penetration and makes it more difficult for opposing team's to play effective help defense against the C's go-to scorers (Pierce especially) ... all of which boost the Celtics offense further.

In terms of defense, Garnett is just as effective on team defense and is also a very effective man-to-man defender at the five. There are very few matchups which cause him significant problems at that position. Garnett is an ever better rebounder at the five because he is closer to the rim more often than at the four.

The defense takes a hit (because of the loss of the second big man defender to more of combo forward type) but how large that hit is varies depending on the opponent (specific matchups) + the guy who he is replacing.

In this case, Jeff Green is replacing Krstic/BBD/Murphy. In terms of team defense, Jeff Green is largely comparable to all of them (a little worse interior team defense, better on team defense away from the rim) ... so as long as their isn't a bad one-on-one matchup, the team shouldn't lose too much defensively with Green on the floor. There is also a loss on the glass but again it's not like BBD or Krstic are prolific rebounders.

In summary, so long as you avoid difficult individual matchups for Green, you won't lose that much in terms of defense + rebounding (when he's replacing Krstic/BBD/Murphy) ... while you gain a great deal offensively.

[EJPLAYA]

I agree, but it's not entirely clear cut.  Here's what I said in the "Doc's Rotations" thread:

Yeah, I don't understand the rotations and minute distributions. Jeff Green needs to play more.

This is the only major issue I have with the rotation.  If you're going to change the chemistry of the team to bring in Jeff Green, then you've at least got to play him.  

I guess in fairness to Doc, Krstic's rebounding and defense (or lack thereof) makes it tough to play "small ball" without getting totally destroyed inside.  Neither Krstic nor BBD is a good fit at center next to Green at power forward.

The only lineup Doc could maybe play more is KG-Green-Pierce-Ray-Rondo.  That lineup could use a little more run; KG struggles against physical centers sometimes, but he's definitely better than Krstic in that regard.

See, I look at playing KG at the 5 a waste most of the time. He's way more effective at the 4, so playing Green there takes away from him.

It's possible that Ainge made the move because he didn't put that much stock in Perk's game. This notion that Green was the centerpiece of the trade and should get big minutes because of it alludes me. His production and adaption to the system will warrant more minutes.

And with that same logic BBD's lack of production and adaptation to Green being the better scorer on the floor when those two are out there together should warrant more time for him riding the pine.

You'll probably get your wish once we have someone that can fill up the lanes defensively.

I sure hope so, because if BBD is getting 35 min a game and one of our top couple shooters (volume wise), we have NO shot at getting out of more than the first round, let alone a title. PLEASE come back SHAQ. YOU are the difference out there.

[CoachBo]

See, I look at playing KG at the 5 a waste most of the time. He's way more effective at the 4, so playing Green there takes away from him.

Kevin Garnett is very effective at the five. His quickness and jump-shooting ability makes him an even tougher matchup offensively than at the four.

It also gives the Celtics an opportunity to put far more quickness on the floor + jump shooting to space the floor which allows them to better take advantage in transition, off dribble penetration and makes it more difficult for opposing team's to play effective help defense against the C's go-to scorers (Pierce especially) ... all of which boost the Celtics offense further.

In terms of defense, Garnett is just as effective on team defense and is also a very effective man-to-man defender at the five. There are very few matchups which cause him significant problems at that position. Garnett is an ever better rebounder at the five because he is closer to the rim more often than at the four.

The defense takes a hit (because of the loss of the second big man defender to more of combo forward type) but how large that hit is varies depending on the opponent (specific matchups) + the guy who he is replacing.

In this case, Jeff Green is replacing Krstic/BBD/Murphy. In terms of team defense, Jeff Green is largely comparable to all of them (a little worse interior team defense, better on team defense away from the rim) ... so as long as their isn't a bad one-on-one matchup, the team shouldn't lose too much defensively with Green on the floor. There is also a loss on the glass but again it's not like BBD or Krstic are prolific rebounders.

In summary, so long as you avoid difficult individual matchups for Green, you won't lose that much in terms of defense + rebounding (when he's replacing Krstic/BBD/Murphy) ... while you gain a great deal offensively.

Interesting, isn't it, that we haven't seen a whole lot of the small ball lineup with KG at the 5 and Green at the 4 that was contemplated with the trade?

Dribble penetration - that thing that we haven't seen around here in a month - is a fascinating offensive tool, at every level of the game. I hope we get to see it again some day.

Again, part of what's wrong here is Doc's rotations, as the other thread on this board discusses.

TP.

[JohnBagleyValueMeal]

Doc is probably using both krstic and green wrong, which is what happens when you acquire key guys with 25 games left in the season.  Sometimes you need a training camp to figure out this stuff.

we disagree a lot but i agree with this ten million percent. making the trade in october would have been one thing. but this...this was incredibly risky.

[JSD]

It's possible that Ainge made the move because he didn't put that much stock in Perk's game. This notion that Green was the centerpiece of the trade and should get big minutes because of it alludes me. His production and adaption to the system will warrant more minutes.

Nobody is arguing that Green should get minutes out of charity or to save face.  However, if Green is good enough to trade a starter off a championship team, it stands to figure that the team thinks he has some value.  He should get the minutes to prove it.  

(I don't think the argument that Danny traded Perk because he didn't think Perk had a lot of value is legitimate.  Danny is smart enough not to tamper with championship chemistry for a guy who can't play.  I think Danny undervalued Perk's intangible contributions, but even so, he's not a total idiot.)

As for a KG/Green lineup, it's not going to work in every matchup, but the ability to go small is one of the strengths of this team that isn't being taken advantage of, mostly because we don't have a healthy center who can rebound and defend the paint.  KG is the only guy capable of doing that in a small ball lineup right now.

Nobody is suggesting Green can't play in the general sense, but maybe his role is designed to be limited on this team? Danny said after the trade that he was looking for depth to backup Pierce and Allen, and that's where Green came in. From there, he has to be really producing for more.

Playing KG at the 5 won't happen often when Shaq and Jermaine come back, so getting the team used to their roles isn't a bad idea. I understand that Doc talked about going "Posey-style" small come playoff time, but like 08, it won't happen often.

[CoachBo]

I don't agree at all. This isn't brain surgery. The new players have been in town long enough to identify their skillsets.

It is past time for Green to get at least 28 minutes a night, for Krstic to be the spot 5 that he is (admittedly, injuries have complicated this), for Davis to be instructed to focus on defense and rebounding, for Rondo to attack with the basketball, et al.

If we can't get that done, then maybe fearing a coaching transition in the off-season is the most off-base thought of all.

[vinnie]

I don't agree at all. This isn't brain surgery. The new players have been in town long enough to identify their skillsets.

It is past time for Green to get at least 28 minutes a night, for Krstic to be the spot 5 that he is (admittedly, injuries have complicated this), for Davis to be instructed to focus on defense and rebounding, for Rondo to attack with the basketball, et al.

If we can't get that done, then maybe fearing a coaching transition in the off-season is the most off-base thought of all.

They probably have had five practices at the most since the trade. It simply is not easy to make a major change like this near the end of the season. It could still work out. We all have to wait.

[JSD]

See, I look at playing KG at the 5 a waste most of the time. He's way more effective at the 4, so playing Green there takes away from him.

Kevin Garnett is very effective at the five. His quickness and jump-shooting ability makes him an even tougher matchup offensively than at the four.

It also gives the Celtics an opportunity to put far more quickness on the floor + jump shooting to space the floor which allows them to better take advantage in transition, off dribble penetration and makes it more difficult for opposing team's to play effective help defense against the C's go-to scorers (Pierce especially) ... all of which boost the Celtics offense further.

In terms of defense, Garnett is just as effective on team defense and is also a very effective man-to-man defender at the five. There are very few matchups which cause him significant problems at that position. Garnett is an ever better rebounder at the five because he is closer to the rim more often than at the four.

The defense takes a hit (because of the loss of the second big man defender to more of combo forward type) but how large that hit is varies depending on the opponent (specific matchups) + the guy who he is replacing.

In this case, Jeff Green is replacing Krstic/BBD/Murphy. In terms of team defense, Jeff Green is largely comparable to all of them (a little worse interior team defense, better on team defense away from the rim) ... so as long as their isn't a bad one-on-one matchup, the team shouldn't lose too much defensively with Green on the floor. There is also a loss on the glass but again it's not like BBD or Krstic are prolific rebounders.

In summary, so long as you avoid difficult individual matchups for Green, you won't lose that much in terms of defense + rebounding (when he's replacing Krstic/BBD/Murphy) ... while you gain a great deal offensively.

While you make a compelling case to play two players out of role and position, I still don't buy it. KG, while effective at ANY spot in the front court in MOST effective at the 4. The same goes for Green at the 3. The numbers that were presented here after the trade, suggest that Green was robbed of effectiveness when playing out of position in OKC. I wish I had the time to present them in this thread tonight, but it's passed my bedtime. Perhaps tomorrow.

[BudweiserCeltic]

See, I look at playing KG at the 5 a waste most of the time. He's way more effective at the 4, so playing Green there takes away from him.

Kevin Garnett is very effective at the five. His quickness and jump-shooting ability makes him an even tougher matchup offensively than at the four.

It also gives the Celtics an opportunity to put far more quickness on the floor + jump shooting to space the floor which allows them to better take advantage in transition, off dribble penetration and makes it more difficult for opposing team's to play effective help defense against the C's go-to scorers (Pierce especially) ... all of which boost the Celtics offense further.

In terms of defense, Garnett is just as effective on team defense and is also a very effective man-to-man defender at the five. There are very few matchups which cause him significant problems at that position. Garnett is an ever better rebounder at the five because he is closer to the rim more often than at the four.

The defense takes a hit (because of the loss of the second big man defender to more of combo forward type) but how large that hit is varies depending on the opponent (specific matchups) + the guy who he is replacing.

In this case, Jeff Green is replacing Krstic/BBD/Murphy. In terms of team defense, Jeff Green is largely comparable to all of them (a little worse interior team defense, better on team defense away from the rim) ... so as long as their isn't a bad one-on-one matchup, the team shouldn't lose too much defensively with Green on the floor. There is also a loss on the glass but again it's not like BBD or Krstic are prolific rebounders.

In summary, so long as you avoid difficult individual matchups for Green, you won't lose that much in terms of defense + rebounding (when he's replacing Krstic/BBD/Murphy) ... while you gain a great deal offensively.

While you make a compelling case to play two players out of role and position, I still don't buy it. KG, while effective at ANY spot in the front court in MOST effective at the 4. The same goes for Green at the 3. The numbers that were presented here after the trade, suggest that Green was robbed of effectiveness when playing out of position in OKC. I wish I had the time to present them in this thread tonight, but it's passed my bedtime. Perhaps tomorrow.

More than playing out of position, his role was different. For example, they had Green standing around in the 3-point line, where he's largely ineffective, unless he's shooting from the corner. He's barely shooting 3s with Boston, so that alone changes a lot of his effectiveness on the floor regardless of the position he's playing.

[get_banners]

i want to see more green (and give pierce a few extra minutes off each night), but my main complaint about baby is his shot attempts, not his minutes. he's a solid defender, and is usually a good offensive player, but it seems like he's looking for his shot a lot more lately. this is okay if he's on, but when he's not, there is no way he should be in the top 3 in shot attempts in a game on this team. if he's not on, he should not be taking more shots than ray, paul, or KG. yet he frequently does.

[ballin]

Well, I don't agree at all about Krstic's ineffectiveness. He was more effective tonight than Davis on both ends. He has his place as a situational 5, especially in an offense that generates 15-footers for the 4 and 5 that Glen Davis simply cannot make. Krstic can make them.

As I've said before, Nads is a situational 5. Doc clearly doesn't grasp that or doesn't want to grasp it. If you want to stretch the inside defense, Davis isn't your guy for the pick and pop. Krstic is.

Krstic isn't that good, but even he is 10x the player that Davis is, so I agree. It's like Davis is on a mission from god to shoot our team out of games.

[PosImpos]

I couldn't agree more with the title of this thread.

[KG Living Legend]

 Come on Doc put the little baby in his place.

[Billz401]

I agree 100% with this thread title. Baby doesnt wanna be called that anymore, well i got a new nickname for him: The Black Hole. Everytime the ball touches his hands it doesnt leave it. He belongs in the paint not jacking up 20 ft jumpers... I mean its pretty bad when our 6th/7th option is taking more shots than RayRay/Pierce/KG.... Especially when hes shooting 4/15 from the floor. Green has proven to be a high-percentage and efficient shooter.  More Green less Black Hole!!!

[winsomme]

It's possible that Ainge made the move because he didn't put that much stock in Perk's game. This notion that Green was the centerpiece of the trade and should get big minutes because of it alludes me. His production and adaption to the system will warrant more minutes.

Nobody is arguing that Green should get minutes out of charity or to save face.  However, if Green is good enough to trade a starter off a championship team, it stands to figure that the team thinks he has some value.  He should get the minutes to prove it. 

(I don't think the argument that Danny traded Perk because he didn't think Perk had a lot of value is legitimate.  Danny is smart enough not to tamper with championship chemistry for a guy who can't play.  I think Danny undervalued Perk's intangible contributions, but even so, he's not a total idiot.)

As for a KG/Green lineup, it's not going to work in every matchup, but the ability to go small is one of the strengths of this team that isn't being taken advantage of, mostly because we don't have a healthy center who can rebound and defend the paint.  KG is the only guy capable of doing that in a small ball lineup right now.

I really hope small ball turns out to be effective with Green, but I'm skeptical at the moment.

The reason it worked with Posey was due to how good a defender he was.

I don't understand why Green isn't a better defender. He has all the tools but just seems not out of sorts at that end....still hoping on this, however.