Who else thinks we made out like bandits in the Perkins trade? I know I do.

[bbd24]

Roy,  I think the biggest mistake your making is that after the trade, you've been comparing Krstic likes he's Perks replacement. Whether its reboudning or defense. For me, and I think the same goes with Ainge, Shaq is Perks replacement. Krstic is replacing JO, Erden, and the other center by committe members that fell behind Shaq on the bench.

I think its a heckuva replacement and great for the bench.  Now its just about getting healthy for the run when the season actually starts, and getting the new guys acquainted with the system and their roles.

How is Shaq replacing Perk when both Shaq and Perk were already on the team? 

How ?  Watch the first half of the season.  There was no Perk.

Shaq was replacing him before the trade, while Perk was soaking his knees.

[wdleehi]

Roy,  I think the biggest mistake your making is that after the trade, you've been comparing Krstic likes he's Perks replacement. Whether its reboudning or defense. For me, and I think the same goes with Ainge, Shaq is Perks replacement. Krstic is replacing JO, Erden, and the other center by committe members that fell behind Shaq on the bench.

I think its a heckuva replacement and great for the bench.  Now its just about getting healthy for the run when the season actually starts, and getting the new guys acquainted with the system and their roles.

How is Shaq replacing Perk when both Shaq and Perk were already on the team? 

How ?  Watch the first half of the season.  There was no Perk.

Shaq was replacing him before the trade, while Perk was soaking his knees.

And the few games they both played?


Shaq and Perk were both on the team.  They played more games together the Shaq and Krstic. 



Shaq didn't replace Perk.  He replaced Wallace. 

[Chris]

Roy,  I think the biggest mistake your making is that after the trade, you've been comparing Krstic likes he's Perks replacement. Whether its reboudning or defense. For me, and I think the same goes with Ainge, Shaq is Perks replacement. Krstic is replacing JO, Erden, and the other center by committe members that fell behind Shaq on the bench.

I think its a heckuva replacement and great for the bench.  Now its just about getting healthy for the run when the season actually starts, and getting the new guys acquainted with the system and their roles.

How is Shaq replacing Perk when both Shaq and Perk were already on the team? 

How ?  Watch the first half of the season.  There was no Perk.

Shaq was replacing him before the trade, while Perk was soaking his knees.

And the few games they both played?


Shaq and Perk were both on the team.  They played more games together the Shaq and Krstic. 



Shaq didn't replace Perk.  He replaced Wallace. 

Well, if you are going to go that way, Shaq replaced Williams...JO replaced Wallace.

But that is irrevalent.  The only thing that matters is the roles they are playing, not when they joined the team. 

[Jon]

It's really way too early to say anything about the trade.  No one is going to know whether it was right or wrong until June. 

Had we held onto Perk, we might be hearing how dumb Danny was for passing this up or we might've been singing his praises. 

[wdleehi]

Roy,  I think the biggest mistake your making is that after the trade, you've been comparing Krstic likes he's Perks replacement. Whether its reboudning or defense. For me, and I think the same goes with Ainge, Shaq is Perks replacement. Krstic is replacing JO, Erden, and the other center by committe members that fell behind Shaq on the bench.

I think its a heckuva replacement and great for the bench.  Now its just about getting healthy for the run when the season actually starts, and getting the new guys acquainted with the system and their roles.

How is Shaq replacing Perk when both Shaq and Perk were already on the team? 

How ?  Watch the first half of the season.  There was no Perk.

Shaq was replacing him before the trade, while Perk was soaking his knees.

And the few games they both played?


Shaq and Perk were both on the team.  They played more games together the Shaq and Krstic. 



Shaq didn't replace Perk.  He replaced Wallace. 

Well, if you are going to go that way, Shaq replaced Williams...JO replaced Wallace.

But that is irrevalent.  The only thing that matters is the roles they are playing, not when they joined the team. 

So, Krstic is the starting C at the moment.  





I just don't see the logic in saying that a player already on the team is replacing a teammate.  


Shaq and Perk were going to split the C spot when both were healthy.  Now, Shaq will split the time with someone else.  




This has nothing to do with "Good trade" vs. "bad trade", just the logic of the comment.  

[Chris]

So, Krstic is the starting C at the moment.  

To me, this is completely irrelevant.  We all know that Krstic will be on the bench come playoff time, and if he isn't this team is in trouble (and they would have been in just as much trouble had Perk been here, since it would mean that the Oneals are still hurt).

I just don't see the logic in saying that a player already on the team is replacing a teammate.  

We are talking about roles, this is not a puzzle where each piece has a finite position on the roster.  As the roster changes, the roles change too.

For example, this year, did Wafer replace Tony Allen?  I would argue that Daniels replaced Tony Allen as the first wing off the bench, and Wafer replaced Daniels as the second wing.  When spots open up, guys can move up the depth chart to replace them, it doesn't mean you have to replace someones role from the outside.

I am kind of at a loss of how there is even any confusion about that.

Shaq and Perk were going to split the C spot when both were healthy.  Now, Shaq will split the time with someone else.  

I agree with that.  But with the roles likely changing, then I think the expectations change as well.  I think if you have Shaq with the starters, then it greatly negates some of the loss from Perkins that some are suggesting there are with Krstic.

  And then where you have either Krstic, or JO playing with the second team, I think the difference is also harder to quantify, since I don't think Perk and Davis were nearly as good a combination as Davis and either JO or Krstic, and I think the second unit can benefit from the offense those guys bring, and will not be hurt as much by the downgrade defensively (with Krstic...JO is not a downgrade).

This has nothing to do with "Good trade" vs. "bad trade", just the logic of the comment.  

I understand that, I just disagree with your logic.

[Roy H.]

Roy,  I think the biggest mistake your making is that after the trade, you've been comparing Krstic likes he's Perks replacement. Whether its reboudning or defense. For me, and I think the same goes with Ainge, Shaq is Perks replacement. Krstic is replacing JO, Erden, and the other center by committe members that fell behind Shaq on the bench.

I think its a heckuva replacement and great for the bench.  Now its just about getting healthy for the run when the season actually starts, and getting the new guys acquainted with the system and their roles.

I agree with wdleehi.  We replaced a center rotation of Perk + Shaq (each playing roughly equal minutes) with Shaq + Krstic (each playing roughly equal minutes). 

Perk + Shaq is better defensively and in terms of rebounding than Shaq + Krstic.  The first lineup also had the benefit of greater familiarity with the rotation players on this team, and I think it gives a bit more flexibility to the lineup (i.e., Perk + BBD can play together without getting murdered on the boards, whereas BBD + Krstic can't).

I don't really buy Chris' "role" argument.  That would make a lot more sense to me if we were talking about one guy who was going to play 35 minutes, but we have two guys who will be playing roughly the same amount of minutes.  Additionally, "roles" are pretty fluid in the playoffs.  Unlike the regular season, Doc won't be making "line changes" with his bench in the playoffs.  Rather, he'll mix a rotation of bench guys in with the starters at almost all times.  That means that both Perk and Shaq (or Shaq and Krstic) would be seeing a lot of time with the starting lineups.

People can see the situation however they want, but I agree with wdleehi's logic:  you need to look at the center rotation as a whole, rather than using an argument that ignores the fact that Perk was on the roster in the first place.

[bbd24]

Roy,  I think the biggest mistake your making is that after the trade, you've been comparing Krstic likes he's Perks replacement. Whether its reboudning or defense. For me, and I think the same goes with Ainge, Shaq is Perks replacement. Krstic is replacing JO, Erden, and the other center by committe members that fell behind Shaq on the bench.

I think its a heckuva replacement and great for the bench.  Now its just about getting healthy for the run when the season actually starts, and getting the new guys acquainted with the system and their roles.

I agree with wdleehi.  We replaced a center rotation of Perk + Shaq (each playing roughly equal minutes) with Shaq + Krstic (each playing roughly equal minutes). 

Perk + Shaq is better defensively and in terms of rebounding than Shaq + Krstic.  The first lineup also had the benefit of greater familiarity with the rotation players on this team, and I think it gives a bit more flexibility to the lineup (i.e., Perk + BBD can play together without getting murdered on the boards, whereas BBD + Krstic can't).

I don't really buy Chris' "role" argument.  That would make a lot more sense to me if we were talking about one guy who was going to play 35 minutes, but we have two guys who will be playing roughly the same amount of minutes.  Additionally, "roles" are pretty fluid in the playoffs.  Unlike the regular season, Doc won't be making "line changes" with his bench in the playoffs.  Rather, he'll mix a rotation of bench guys in with the starters at almost all times.  That means that both Perk and Shaq (or Shaq and Krstic) would be seeing a lot of time with the starting lineups.

People can see the situation however they want, but I agree with wdleehi's logic:  you need to look at the center rotation as a whole, rather than using an argument that ignores the fact that Perk was on the roster in the first place.

Where does Green and the Clipper 1st round pick fit in with this so called 'logic' ?  You didn't just get Krstic in the deal.  He isn't your only 'replacement'.  You replaced guys on the bench as well, and got a future player in the meantime.  You can overlook it, but I wouldn't advise that.

I'll go with Danny Ainge and Chris' logic. My money is on them. You replaced Shaq with Perkins role and lost nothing (maybe even gained at that starting center role from what I've seen of Shaq this year), and now have a veteran starter in Krstic as your backup center who replaces JO/Erden and company.

Heckuva move.  Smart.

Meanwhile, in the bat cave, you have Jeff Green coming off your bench which is a significant upgrade to anything you've had there all year.  So instead of throwing just Shaq/Perkins on them, your now throwing Shaq/Krstic, and Green.  No, I'm not saying Green at the 5, I'm just saying Green as a HUGE addition to the bench mob.

You can't defy that logic.  Significantly upgraded.  The team and the roles.

[Megatron]

Roy,  I think the biggest mistake your making is that after the trade, you've been comparing Krstic likes he's Perks replacement. Whether its reboudning or defense. For me, and I think the same goes with Ainge, Shaq is Perks replacement. Krstic is replacing JO, Erden, and the other center by committe members that fell behind Shaq on the bench.

I think its a heckuva replacement and great for the bench.  Now its just about getting healthy for the run when the season actually starts, and getting the new guys acquainted with the system and their roles.

I agree with wdleehi.  We replaced a center rotation of Perk + Shaq (each playing roughly equal minutes) with Shaq + Krstic (each playing roughly equal minutes). 

Perk + Shaq is better defensively and in terms of rebounding than Shaq + Krstic.  The first lineup also had the benefit of greater familiarity with the rotation players on this team, and I think it gives a bit more flexibility to the lineup (i.e., Perk + BBD can play together without getting murdered on the boards, whereas BBD + Krstic can't).

I don't really buy Chris' "role" argument.  That would make a lot more sense to me if we were talking about one guy who was going to play 35 minutes, but we have two guys who will be playing roughly the same amount of minutes.  Additionally, "roles" are pretty fluid in the playoffs.  Unlike the regular season, Doc won't be making "line changes" with his bench in the playoffs.  Rather, he'll mix a rotation of bench guys in with the starters at almost all times.  That means that both Perk and Shaq (or Shaq and Krstic) would be seeing a lot of time with the starting lineups.

People can see the situation however they want, but I agree with wdleehi's logic:  you need to look at the center rotation as a whole, rather than using an argument that ignores the fact that Perk was on the roster in the first place.

Where does Green and the Clipper 1st round pick fit in with this so called 'logic' ?  You didn't just get Krstic in the deal.  He isn't your only 'replacement'.  You replaced guys on the bench as well, and got a future player in the meantime.  You can overlook it, but I wouldn't advise that.

I'll go with Danny Ainge and Chris' logic. My money is on them. You replaced Shaq with Perkins role and lost nothing (maybe even gained at that starting center role from what I've seen of Shaq this year), and now have a veteran starter in Krstic as your backup center who replaces JO/Erden and company.

Heckuva move.  Smart.

Meanwhile, in the bat cave, you have Jeff Green coming off your bench which is a significant upgrade to anything you've had there all year.  So instead of throwing just Shaq/Perkins on them, your now throwing Shaq/Krstic, and Green.  No, I'm not saying Green at the 5, I'm just saying Green as a HUGE addition to the bench mob.

You can't defy that logic.  Significantly upgraded.  The team and the roles.

I agree with all of your points.

I think that JO will split minutes with Krstic at the 5 though. JO in for defense, Krstic for offense with each playing 10 or so minutes and Shaq 20-25.

JO has shown this year when he was able to play that he was still a very good defensive player, paint clogger, and shot blocker.

Lets not discount JO here, If we take Dannys statements as truth, JO will be back for the playoffs and be able to contribute in a big way along with Shaq.

[Interceptor]

Maybe you're right, but this is a list of Krstic's defensive rebounds since joining the team:

Only time and circumstance will tell if he can realize the potential, but I think his double-digit games show that Krstic undeniably has the ability to get it done.  There's no physical reason for him to be unable;  as I said, he's both taller and faster than Perk, and he's demonstrated (to me at least) good instincts for grabbing boards.

The lows don't necessarily say that he's a bad rebounder:  there's only one ball.  Picking his latest performance, against the Nets, with only one defensive rebound, surely this means that the Nets must have gobbled up a ton of those rebounds, right?  Well, no, the Celtics scooped up three out of every four defensive rebounds, just like they always do (which is a good figure).  If you want to know where Krstic's boards went in that game, you need look no further than his teammates that were on the floor with him.  I'm OK if the guy gets beat out by KG.

If you want me to believe that Curly is a poor rebounder, I need to see that 1) he's not capable of stepping up, and 2) he hurts the team's defensive rebounding when he's on the floor.  Because I'm fine with Krstic boxing out someone for another Celtic to get a rebound, etc.


Now, he may make a fool of me by proceeding to phone it in for the rest of his career, but hope springs eternal and all that.

[Celtics18]

Roy,  I think the biggest mistake your making is that after the trade, you've been comparing Krstic likes he's Perks replacement. Whether its reboudning or defense. For me, and I think the same goes with Ainge, Shaq is Perks replacement. Krstic is replacing JO, Erden, and the other center by committe members that fell behind Shaq on the bench.

I think its a heckuva replacement and great for the bench.  Now its just about getting healthy for the run when the season actually starts, and getting the new guys acquainted with the system and their roles.

I agree with wdleehi.  We replaced a center rotation of Perk + Shaq (each playing roughly equal minutes) with Shaq + Krstic (each playing roughly equal minutes). 

Perk + Shaq is better defensively and in terms of rebounding than Shaq + Krstic.  The first lineup also had the benefit of greater familiarity with the rotation players on this team, and I think it gives a bit more flexibility to the lineup (i.e., Perk + BBD can play together without getting murdered on the boards, whereas BBD + Krstic can't).

I don't really buy Chris' "role" argument.  That would make a lot more sense to me if we were talking about one guy who was going to play 35 minutes, but we have two guys who will be playing roughly the same amount of minutes.  Additionally, "roles" are pretty fluid in the playoffs.  Unlike the regular season, Doc won't be making "line changes" with his bench in the playoffs.  Rather, he'll mix a rotation of bench guys in with the starters at almost all times.  That means that both Perk and Shaq (or Shaq and Krstic) would be seeing a lot of time with the starting lineups.

People can see the situation however they want, but I agree with wdleehi's logic:  you need to look at the center rotation as a whole, rather than using an argument that ignores the fact that Perk was on the roster in the first place.

I'll agree that the trade downgraded our center position, but having seen Nenad in action, less than I had originally suspected it would.

The question then becomes: was it worth downgrading our center position to bring in something else that this team was sorely lacking; a back up small forward?

So far, no one seems convinced that Jeff Green is a great perimeter defender, but he sure has the size and athleticism to fill the role.  Specifically, what we need him to be is someone who can guard Lebron James for significant stretches and do a decent job.  

Without some help, Ray and Paul will get worn to nubs guarding Wade and James for the duration of a seven game series.  Not only might Green help us be able to get by the Heat, but he might also help make it so that Paul and Ray have something left for a subsequent series.  

Jeff Green is a significant piece for our current title hopes.  Replacing Perk with Nenad was the gamble that Danny took to get that wing help.

Of course, Shaq is the wild card in all this.  I'm getting increasingly nervous.  'Cause I don't think we'll be a legit contender with Nenad Krstic as our starting center and Troy Murphy as the back up. I do think we'll be a legit contender with Shaq as the starting center, Nenad as his back up, and Jeff Green as a back up small forward/power forward.  

[Roy H.]

You can't defy that logic.  Significantly upgraded.  The team and the roles.

Any argument where Perk isn't counted isn't legitimate to me.  I mean, you're literally ignoring him, as if he would have had no role on the team afterward.  I mean, you can look at the trade that way, just don't expect anyone who isn't already convinced to be persuaded.

[HOFer]

I certainly do. We were #1 seed without him, so basically we get our former success (big IF shaq is healthy enough) with Jeff Green and Krstic for Nate the Transition Mistake Robinson.

[Roy H.]

Roy,  I think the biggest mistake your making is that after the trade, you've been comparing Krstic likes he's Perks replacement. Whether its reboudning or defense. For me, and I think the same goes with Ainge, Shaq is Perks replacement. Krstic is replacing JO, Erden, and the other center by committe members that fell behind Shaq on the bench.

I think its a heckuva replacement and great for the bench.  Now its just about getting healthy for the run when the season actually starts, and getting the new guys acquainted with the system and their roles.

I agree with wdleehi.  We replaced a center rotation of Perk + Shaq (each playing roughly equal minutes) with Shaq + Krstic (each playing roughly equal minutes). 

Perk + Shaq is better defensively and in terms of rebounding than Shaq + Krstic.  The first lineup also had the benefit of greater familiarity with the rotation players on this team, and I think it gives a bit more flexibility to the lineup (i.e., Perk + BBD can play together without getting murdered on the boards, whereas BBD + Krstic can't).

I don't really buy Chris' "role" argument.  That would make a lot more sense to me if we were talking about one guy who was going to play 35 minutes, but we have two guys who will be playing roughly the same amount of minutes.  Additionally, "roles" are pretty fluid in the playoffs.  Unlike the regular season, Doc won't be making "line changes" with his bench in the playoffs.  Rather, he'll mix a rotation of bench guys in with the starters at almost all times.  That means that both Perk and Shaq (or Shaq and Krstic) would be seeing a lot of time with the starting lineups.

People can see the situation however they want, but I agree with wdleehi's logic:  you need to look at the center rotation as a whole, rather than using an argument that ignores the fact that Perk was on the roster in the first place.

I'll agree that the trade downgraded our center position, but having seen Nenad in action, less than I had originally suspected it would.

The question then becomes: was it worth downgrading our center position to bring in something else that this team was sorely lacking; a back up small forward?

So far, no one seems convinced that Jeff Green is a great perimeter defender, but he sure has the size and athleticism to fill the role.  Specifically, what we need him to be is someone who can guard Lebron James for significant stretches and do a decent job.  

Without some help, Ray and Paul will get worn to nubs guarding Wade and James for the duration of a seven game series.  Not only might Green help us be able to get by the Heat, but he might also help make it so that Paul and Ray have something left for a subsequent series.  

Jeff Green is a significant piece for our current title hopes.  Replacing Perk with Nenad was the gamble that Danny took to get that wing help.

Of course, Shaq is the wild card in all this.  I'm getting increasingly nervous.  'Cause I don't think we'll be a legit contender with Nenad Krstic as our starting center and Troy Murphy as the back up. I do think we'll be a legit contender with Shaq as the starting center, Nenad as his back up, and Jeff Green as a back up small forward/power forward.  

All good points, but keep in mind that nobody is suggesting that we should have gone forward with Von Wafer as our backup 3.  There was a proposed deal on the table for Anthony Parker, apparently, and there's at least a rumor that we could have gotten Battier in a 3-way with Golden State and Houston. 

Personally, I prefer Perk + Parker + roster spots or, especially, Perk + Battier + roster spots to Krstic + Green + roster spots.  The Clippers pick is nice, but I don't really care about that in the short term; this year's championship is the primary goal.

[winsomme]

To me, this is completely irrelevant.  We all know that Krstic will be on the bench come playoff time, and if he isn't this team is in trouble (and they would have been in just as much trouble had Perk been here, since it would mean that the Oneals are still hurt).

most of us hope that, but I don't know that ANY of us know that...

plus, why would Perk still being here mean that the O'Neals were still hurt?